RESOLVED

[Pmalek]

<Snip>

I am not familiar with the MLB or the different segments that exist in a baseball game. But by using the betsapi site that was suggested above, are you able to find that particular moment in the match where you placed your live bet with high odds so we can see what odds bet365 was offering at the exact same time? If the offered odds were similar on both bookies, it would be a clear sign that Wintomato didn't act appropriately.

You can check by clicking the general terms and conditions, then look on the 12.13 rules, it's where they mention the sports betting terms and conditions. I think it's tricky and they want to hide it from their gamblers, they wouldn't aware if this casino has a separate rules for sports since they only write the general terms and conditions. Unlike the other casino that mention their sports terms and conditions on their main page.

Thanks, I can see it now. That's clearly not how it should be. Those links should also be placed on the main page and not hidden somewhere in a wallet of text like Wintomato is doing. And another thing, if you compare the link to their general T&C (https://wintomato.com/en/terms-and-conditions) to the one that applies to sports betting (https://wintomato.com/en/news/sports-terms-and-conditions), do you notice that it says "news" on the link? It's a separate page on their casino, like a blog where they post various betting and crypto-related articles. You can check it out from this link: https://wintomato.com/en/news. The interesting thing is, the news article about their Sports T&C isn't visible in the list.
So I am asking the Wintomato representative one more time, walk me through the process of accessing the page for your Sports T&C? And a follow up question: why is that news article about your Sports T&C not available in the list with the other articles?

[holydarkness]

Hello,

[...]

All won by value betting activities which is restricted in any gambling platform and is subject for confiscation; Please have in mind that we did not cut balance but cancel the bet slips which were won by these actions;

[...]

12.2.1 Within one month we reserve the right to cancel bets slips if the user has been spotted doing permanent value betting activities;
*** A value bet is simply a bet where the likelihood of a given outcome is higher than what the odds offered reflect. This means that the expected return is statistically positive. Value betting, therefore, means betting only when your chances of winning are higher than the bookmaker estimated.

Wintomato – Risk Management Department

This is the communication mail with him on 17th of September 2022, during this time we already warned him about our suspicions and but did not take radical actions, however possible consequences were clearly stated and T&C were referred;

I'm not familiar at all with gambling and their terms, so I have to rely on the internet to look for the definition of the terms wintomato accused OP did here that put him on this position, but unless the definition I read are wrong --all five of them, actually, so the odd is nearly nonexistent-- there are inconsistencies on your counter-accusations against OP.

As per your reply on this thread, quoted above, you ban OP because they violate your TnC of value betting, which you neatly also explained on the lower part of the post. While the screenshot of email on 17 September, and whatever emails that you're yet to show us to backup the "multiple times" claim, is a warning is about the arbitrage betting.

These two, according to five different sites I read, are a different thing. On arbit betting, you bet on several outcome simultaneously, while value betting is simply --which can also be summed from your own post-- is the act of placing one bet where you're kinda sure --still a gamble, though-- that the outcome would be against the odds that the bookie placed. A nice comparison is here:

Arbitrage Betting And Value Betting Comparison

• You should be quick when you find the opportunity to place an arbitrage bet. Remember that bookies adjust their odds constantly, so you can lose the chance to secure profits if you do not move fast. Whereas, if you have a value bet, you will only bet once. So, this reduces the risk of mistakes.
• To place arbitrage bets, a minimum of two or three accounts at different bookmakers is required. In value bets, it is enough that you are registered in one bookie.
• The bankroll you need to make value bets is less than that required to make arbitrage bets. The reason is that you will not need multiple bookmakers. You won't have to place several bets at each opportunity, neither.

So, if you ban OP, stating that the reason is because you've warned them several times about arbit betting which they kept ignoring and forced you to lock their account, it can be summarized that either (1) you're as clueless as me about betting terms because the two counter-accusation you gave are two different things and yet somehow you understand them as one similar thing which leads you to ban them and ultimately leads us all to this position, and how on earth does a professional betting provider didn't know that they're different thing? Or... (2) you ban every user the instance they tried a betting method, no first warning or whatev. Bear in mind --in case you missed my point-- that the two is a different thing, so your email on 17th September --arbit betting-- is completely unrelated to the explanation of the "cheating" the OP did as per your explanation on 25th of November --value betting. And please note that from the way I understand them, these methods are actually quite legal as they're counted as "strategies".

Of course, the two possible summary above is under the assumption that OP is indeed utilize one of the two methods, you should explain how does OP arbit betting if they loses a lot of times. Or, if they're value betting, why does the invalid ones --thus revoked-- are only the winning terms while the other bets aren't. I think, the first thing you should do right now is make up your mind whether you ban OP for value betting or arbit betting... it'll be nice if we can have a side dish of explanation about how you mixed up both terms too.

[Pmalek]

<Snip>

Yeah, arbitrage betting and value betting are two very different things. They are not illegal in the sense you will be taken to jail if you do it, but they are unwelcome and frowned upon. Bookies put limits and even ban players for value betting. In OPs case, his bets are clean and round numbers. Arbitrage betting is recognized if you see weird wagers that you wouldn't normally make. For example, betting $100 on an outcome is a normal thing. Betting $103.48 isn't. It looks like it's been calculated by an arbitrage calculator for maximum profit.

[Plaguedeath]

do you notice that it says "news" on the link? It's a separate page on their casino, like a blog where they post various betting and crypto-related articles. You can check it out from this link: https://wintomato.com/en/news. The interesting thing is, the news article about their Sports T&C isn't visible in the list.

It looks like I'm not wrong to say if this casino want to hide their sports terms of service from the gamblers, moreover they haven't show any proof to back up their own words since it's just an excuse and they haven't any reputation in this forum.

The wintomato representative is logging in this forum yesterday, but they haven't give any reply until now. I think they're still making a new excuse to not pay this gambler

[Pmalek]

<Snip>

I doubt they care much about their reputation and unless they come here with some proper explanations and proof, it could get even worse. My advice to the OP is gather all the evidence and make a complaint on AskGamblers as well. Someone from their team will take a look at your data and also request proof from Wintomato. My next piece of advice is to give them a few days to see if they will respond again in this thread. If not, create a flag against them and let's see if there will be enough support for it. The way things stand now, I will be one of those who will support the correct type of flag. 

[yahoo62278]

My question here is why do you choose to play at a smaller casino that has a semi sketchy past? Why wouldn't you choose to play on a site like Stake.com. roobet, Bitsler or Gamdom? Sites that have shown they have a bankroll to make a big payout.

You're free to play at wintomato but why would you? I see a lot of accusations against smaller sites and cannot understand why a player decided to play there, let alone play with a big balance. Seems a little odd doesn't it?

[Pmalek]

My question here is why do you choose to play at a smaller casino that has a semi sketchy past? Why wouldn't you choose to play on a site like Stake.com. roobet, Bitsler or Gamdom? Sites that have shown they have a bankroll to make a big payout.

I do wonder the same thing. However, it's fair to point out that we are starting to see accusations against Stake as well that seem sketchy to say the least. No one is guilty until proven to be guilty of wrongdoings, but it's worth keeping an eye out. I think there is one or two active scam accusations against Stake at the top of this board right now.

[yahoo62278]

A couple days ago I made them the offer via email to pay me out my full balance (1.791 BTC) spread out over 12 months. So that would be 150mbtc per month only, giving them the chance to not have a large impact on their business and keep growing. Let's see if they take the offer, otherwise I will start legal proceedings, I have a lawyer ready to go in Curacao next week. Will keep you posted.

You may as well start the legal proceedings is how it sounds to me. If they haven't paid you by now, I doubt that they plan to. They are likely going to stick to their claim and see if you go away.

[holydarkness]

A couple days ago I made them the offer via email to pay me out my full balance (1.791 BTC) spread out over 12 months. So that would be 150mbtc per month only, giving them the chance to not have a large impact on their business and keep growing. Let's see if they take the offer, otherwise I will start legal proceedings, I have a lawyer ready to go in Curacao next week. Will keep you posted.

You sent the email on December 3rd? Are they replying you through email? As I can see that they're online again yesterday, so the chance is almost zero that any of their staff didn't notice your offer. It's bound to happen by --at least-- now that either they saw the email or their representative read your post here. Seems they choose to ignore you if you're yet to get any, any, reply.

[MegaAkker]

Wow that is pretty shocking that even if you lose big they can still just take your funds!
You are right that it can't be value betting if you lose over a period of a year and especially if the odds looked quite normal!

[holydarkness]

So, I just spent 6 hours doing some very accurate research and these are the results:

[...]

Wintomato, if you read this be honest and simply admit you acted way too harsh. Go ahead and look at the betsapi.com website and see for yourself. If I am a value bettor then I am a really dumb one because I could have shopped around for better odds on almost every game. And if I was doing value betting it would statistically be impossible to have 6 big losing months in a row over such a large sample.

If this does not get solved then it will be big red flag for any potential new customer.

I thought you're exchanging emails with them? Was this mean the resolution you're looking for is not reached? Or are they stopped replying again? If they're still looking and discussing for a solution with you by emails, I think it's quite unfair if you reached here and post something that made them looks bad ---fact and data or not-- although they're still in a good will. Unless they went MIA again?

[yahoo62278]

So, I just spent 6 hours doing some very accurate research and these are the results:

[...]

Wintomato, if you read this be honest and simply admit you acted way too harsh. Go ahead and look at the betsapi.com website and see for yourself. If I am a value bettor then I am a really dumb one because I could have shopped around for better odds on almost every game. And if I was doing value betting it would statistically be impossible to have 6 big losing months in a row over such a large sample.

If this does not get solved then it will be big red flag for any potential new customer.

I thought you're exchanging emails with them? Was this mean the resolution you're looking for is not reached? Or are they stopped replying again? If they're still looking and discussing for a solution with you by emails, I think it's quite unfair if you reached here and post something that made them looks bad ---fact and data or not-- although they're still in a good will. Unless they went MIA again?

They offered me $6000 which is ofcourse not acceptable since it means they still stole $23.000 and then they indeed stopped replying.

I have tagged their forum account in hopes they will reply here and give you some answers. They have been online in the past week. They have had some issues in the past here so I don't know if they will want to solve your issues. They might be too broke to pay you.

[holydarkness]

They offered me $6000 which is ofcourse not acceptable since it means they still stole $23.000 and then they indeed stopped replying.

If you could update your opening post with this alongside with a screenshot as an evidence of their counter-offer, it'll be nice. I find it quite questionable for their side, if they're sure your account is cheating but then decided upon a "good will" by paying you one-fifth of amount due, isn't it a bit strange? If they're very sure you're an abuser, they won't do anything and keep on pressing with their defense.

I have tagged their forum account in hopes they will reply here and give you some answers. They have been online in the past week. They have had some issues in the past here so I don't know if they will want to solve your issues. They might be too broke to pay you.

Last time, it worked nicely. They were "too busy" with updating their staff that they missed the accusation for months. Given this one is not even clear what's the real reason why they canceled OP's WD, let's see if a nice orange number on their profile helps motivate them enough to handle this case more seriously.

[Plaguedeath]

So where's the Wintomato's representative aka scammer? the account last active was December 7, but their last post was November 26 which mean they're shut their mouth for around 2 weeks. If the @OP is scammer why Wintomato doesn't make continuous reply? as we can see the @OP here is the one who keep replying. If you're right, don't be scared, actually the scared one is the scammer.

@OP you need to ask them to pay you the complete $29K, if they only want to pay $6K it means they don't have enough bankroll to pay you.

[Pmalek]

I was curious, so I checked two random matches on betsapi to confirm if the information OP provided below is true.
The first match I took a look at was:

2) Indiana Pacers @ 1,27 versus Orlando Magic at score 8:1 at 1:16 AM CET on Nov 22:
At this exact same moment Cashpoint had odds of 1,28 while Bet365 had 1,27. Again, the odds of Wintomato are not off.

I can confirm that the odds on bet365 according to betsapi were indeed 1.27 as can be seen here. You might need to be logged in to the betsapi app to see the whole history of odds. I didn't check the other betting companies. Bet365 is the largest, so there is no need.

The second much I checked was:

10) NY Knicks @ 1,69 versus Denver Nuggets at score 66:60 at 5:31 AM CET on Nov 17:
At this exact same moment Bet365 had odds of 1,66. So yes, Wintomato was slightly the highest here, but not by such a margin that it should be void.

This particular situation is a bit different. The odds were updated that exact second. Bet365 had odds of 1.571, and in that exact second the odds increased to 1.666. Everyone can check it out here.

Is that enough to void and cancel the bet? I don't think so. If bet365 kept their odds at 1.571 and didn't update to 1.666, I would say that Wintomato had a valid reason to void those bets. But that isn't the case here.

@GekkeBelg
Have you created a flag against Wintomato? I think you should do that. I haven't seen anything from their side to suggest they were right to cancel your winnings. If there is something like that, I would like them to show it to me. And since they have decided to stay silent on this matter, it's clear to me that they don't want to handle this properly.

[GekkeBelg]

Guys, I am glad to announce that my dispute with Wintomato has been RESOLVED since we came to an agreement. Part of the deal is that I cannot say anything about the conditions so I'm sorry I won't be able to answer questions about it. This will also be my last post in this topic. Thank you all so much for the help, without the Bitcointalk community this would have been much harder!

[Plaguedeath]

Guys, I am glad to announce that my dispute with Wintomato has been RESOLVED since we came to an agreement. Part of the deal is that I cannot say anything about the conditions so I'm sorry I won't be able to answer questions about it. This will also be my last post in this topic. Thank you all so much for the help, without the Bitcointalk community this would have been much harder!

Thanks for the update @OP

I'm happy to see your case are already resolved, although I don't know what's the agreement and how much they're already pay to you, but if it's goes wrong, you need to update in this accusation again.

Since you're said this case is already resolved, it's better if you add RESOLVED word in the subject title and lock this topic.

[Riocasino]

Judging your bet size you really high roller with big pockets.
is not suprised  that you take a lawyer and try to beat them up.


You said you closed deal with the casino just becareful. If he tried to scam you once is not a guy you could trust and make deal withs. it may be a set up.

Obviously he understands now that you have money and you are not going to let it go and he is afraid.

[yahoo62278]

I still have the tag on this casino and will not remove it without an explanation as to the terms of the deal. There is no reason for it to be a hidden deal. I also will not remove it unless the OP was paid in full and proof provided.

A casino should not be operating if it cannot pay out a win in full(unless their ToS say max monthly payout or something). With a deal reached and the op told to keep silent makes the casino look scammy as fuck.

[holydarkness]

As a side note, I've been considering about posting this since yesterday for the sake of protecting OP's best interest, in concern that they'll voided OP's next installment --yes, as I've been contemplating about it since yesterday, it also means I am completely aware about a certain missing post-- but I think it won't be fair for other user of they didn't get forewarned of the possible risk they're facing upon signing up to wintomato, so...

I am leaving a negative tag as well, forcing your customer into NDA just in order for them to get what's rightfully theirs is not a good practice. If wintomato has nothing to hide and their allegation is true, then they won't force the NDA; it only proves that they wrongly accuses and ban player without plausible reason. Further, not sure if the real reason behind the unproven accusation is because they want to void the winning because they can't pay it or for other reason, but the fact that they need to install a payment amounted 29,000 USD certainly worth a caution, it could mean they're illiquid and possess some degree of possibility that future user will get their payment unfulfilled too.

Will change them to neutral tag when they paid in full, and will consider to remove the tag if they can provide plausible and concrete story behind this case.