ECB blog statement: "Bitcoin’s last stand"

[Kryptowerk]

From their latest blog post, things don't look too pretty for Bitcoin regarding the European Central Bank's official stance: https://www.ecb.europa.eu/press/blog/date/2022/html/ecb.blog221130~5301eecd19.en.html

That being said, what else was to be expected from one of the big instituations that is directly threatened by Satoshis whitepaper.

[avikz]

Wow! The articles uses very strong sentences throughout!

Bitcoin is rarely used for legal transactions

Big Bitcoin investors have the strongest incentives to keep the euphoria going.

Promoting Bitcoin bears a reputational risk for banks

This is far from ideal. But as you have rightly said, what else can we expect from a banking regulator! Also if they are adding the environmental aspect to it, their stance will become even more negative.

[zasad@]

If I wanted to kill bitcoin, then I would write more convincing information that certain people were mining and buying back bitcoins when it was very cheap and now they are manipulating the cryptocurrency market. SBF is one of the representatives of manipulators. And if I see such articles, then I think that the manipulators still have plans for bitcoin.

[Kryptowerk]

Wow! The articles uses very strong sentences throughout!

Bitcoin is rarely used for legal transactions

Big Bitcoin investors have the strongest incentives to keep the euphoria going.

Promoting Bitcoin bears a reputational risk for banks

This is far from ideal. But as you have rightly said, what else can we expect from a banking regulator! Also if they are adding the environmental aspect to it, their stance will become even more negative.

Yes, this is the same mumbling that has been going on for years, but this article suprised only in the way they combined almost all negative prejudices for Bitcoin while at the same time completely failing to acknowledge what it achived over the last few years.
Like I said not suprising coming from a central bank.

However I'd still be interested to hear what people think about how relevant this position of the ECB would be for Bitcoin longterm, regarding its legal situation.

[NotATether]

Like I said not suprising coming from a central bank.

So it will come to the surprise of absolutely no one when ECB walks back their blog statements 50 years later, by which time, several countries and millions more people would adopt it as legal tender.

Today I saw a news article: "Messi invests in money that did not exist 20 years ago" (they're obviously talking about crypto).

That particular argument is going to become unworkable as the decades pass. Today, you can no longer say "money that did not exist 10 years ago", now can you?

[NeuroticFish]

That being said, what else was to be expected from one of the big instituations that is directly threatened by Satoshis whitepaper.

Exactly. ECB is a..  bank. And while some commercial banks have started loving the taste of the profits that come from crypto, they are still few. And the central banks (where I'd include ECB too) simply feel more and more threatened by bitcoin. They don't understand it, they cannot control it and it has the potential to make them lose their jobs on the really long term.

Even more: they are walking on a thin ice. They are pushing CBDCs, which in the average Joe's head is not that much different than Bitcoin (so CBDCs somewhat advertise bitcoin too), still, they are telling that Bitcoin is bad. I would not be surprised if even the average Joe will soon notice that something stinks badly in this kind of "reports" of ECB (and the similar central banks). Yes, it's the smell of fear...

[odolvlobo]

FUD

That's all that needs to be said about the article.

[PrivacyG]

while at the same time completely failing to acknowledge what it achived over the last few years.

They have a plan they will stick to.  How will their statement look in the eyes of the average reader if they finally acknowledged Bitcoin's achievements?  It is hard for me to believe they do not know what Bitcoin has accomplished.  But they have to continue forwarding the same message they used to.  Particularly now, with Bitcoin and the Cryptocurrency market generally being under constant spearheads of FUD.

Any body else seeing this as a premeditated attack on Bitcoin?  How come do these negative stances always come up when Bitcoin shows signs of slowing down and taking a deep breath.  Is it just me or is it almost like they are timing it every time.

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

[joniboini]

Looks like another fine addition to the "Bitcoin dies" articles. Looking forward to more articles in the next few years, at least until the next halving comes. Not sure if they time it or not but articles like this always come in the bear market, probably to push retail out as soon as possible. I'm pretty sure when they can control Bitcoin or crypto in general they will change the narrative again.

[Edwardard]

Any body else seeing this as a premeditated attack on Bitcoin?

They loose, they fud so that others dont win too. When they finally enter, they start bragging and cherishing like they got the golden ticket, as you can see with saylor/microstrategy. Normal human behavioral pattern.

How come do these negative stances always come up when Bitcoin shows signs of slowing down and taking a deep breath.  Is it just me or is it almost like they are timing it every time.

These negative stances do come during bull markets too (by the leftout loosers), however they are not infamously discussed and  ignored since the winners outperform them by high margin.

~probably to push retail out as soon as possible.

Retails play an important role in the market, please dont underestimate us

[Apocollapse]

Wow! The articles uses very strong sentences throughout!

Bitcoin is rarely used for legal transactions

Big Bitcoin investors have the strongest incentives to keep the euphoria going.

Promoting Bitcoin bears a reputational risk for banks

But they're not wrong by saying that.

We know El Salvador and Central African Republic accept Bitcoin as legal tender, but does every citizens on those countries use Bitcoin as legal tender? I doubt it. Also it just only 2 country that accept Bitcoin as legal tender, while the rest still not accept it.

Big Bitcoin investors could take a part to manipulate the market, but there's no proof about it since most big Bitcoin holders are centralized exchange hot wallet.

Promoting Bitcoin will increase adoption and Bitcoin's aim to eliminate third party which is bank, so of course they're worry if people are more trust Bitcoin than Banks.

[franky1]

they are very selective about their wording. to avoid many aspects that actually are involved

take this paragraph

In the mid-2010s, the hope that Bitcoin's value would inevitably rise to ever new heights began to dominate the narrative. But Bitcoin is also not suitable as an investment. It does not generate cash flow (like real estate) or dividends (like equities), cannot be used productively (like commodities) or provide social benefits (like gold). The market valuation of Bitcoin is therefore based purely on speculation.

funny how bankers that meant to be economic trained professionals cant tell the difference between 'value' and 'price'

the value. is not the market price or the market cap

even hal finney in 2010 knew that price was based on an understanding of underlying value set by the mining costs that need to be recouped ( part of the value proposition), where the "price" then markets above value

the value is derived below the market price. based on the cost of acquisition at a base rate no one wants to sell below or no one can buy below.  thus forming a wall/support where the value becomes non-zero

the most efficient mining on the planet is near that base number. (the lowest acquisition cost of coins)

mining has a real world cost. and requires real world spending to recoup costs.

yes the market price above that is speculative. but VALUE is not at the market price speculative layer
its below that

EG bitcoins price from summer 2022 wiggled around the $24k-$16k area
but the underlying VALUE is about $13k-$15k where the value does not move as frantically as the market

they want to pretend the market of $0-$69k is just 100% hype/hope/speculation.

lets take gold
golds value is not the market price. the market price is the premium people agree to pay above value
the value is about $900.. the premium(price) is currently ~$1.8k today
..
bitcoins PRICE speculates at a premium above value too. where the value is NON-ZERO.and this year its value is about $13k-$15k and the premium(price) has speculated $16k-$69k in the last year

this base value of bitcoin is not a daily wiggle speculation change. its a more smooth transition that is tested periodically over a 6month-4year cycle, where it increases over those periods


the funny part is
they try to say bitcoin does not do x/y/z for common man citizen
yet common man citizen can use bitcoin

yet the ECB have many products like derivatives and behind the scenes 'darkpool' markets of banker produced product that common man citizen cannot use

its as if they are trying to say all bank activity is open and free to use and transparent.. yet THEY say bitcoin is closed and not accessible to common man to make money(profit) on. where transactions do not occur and value does not transfer between users(flow)

[adzino]

From their latest blog post, things don't look too pretty for Bitcoin regarding the European Central Bank's official stance: https://www.ecb.europa.eu/press/blog/date/2022/html/ecb.blog221130~5301eecd19.en.html

That being said, what else was to be expected from one of the big instituations that is directly threatened by Satoshis whitepaper.

You know this article is biased and trying to trash crypto currencies because they are threatened by bitcoin. Cute how they ended up saying promoting bitcoin puts the reputation of the banks at risk. Like how? What has bank to do with bitcoin? If people prefer bitcoins, then they probably do because it is far superior than using banks and fiat currency. They are saying bitcoin is "rarely" used for legal transaction, then what about the millions of dollars that has been donated to countries that are in need. Are those all transactions illegal? What about people buying stuffs online with bitcoin by following at the regulatory rules. I doubt those are illegal transactions. This is nothing but an attempt to spread FUD.

[franky1]

speaking of legal vs illegal use
i have been around bitcoin since 2012 and my usage has been legal. ive bought transportation, goods and services and many things that are all real and legal. i dont do drugs and i dont do crimes.

funny how they are stuck in the past where news(media) promoted silkroad in 2011.. yet many people were buying cupcakes and alpaca socks and beer and pizza and many more things

if they were economic researchers.. they would see
https://www.wired.com/2013/10/silk-road/

silkroad:
From February 2011 to July 2013, there were 1.2 million transactions on the site, That's about 4 percent of the 225 million bitcoin transactions that happened on Bitcoin's public block chain over the same period.

4% drug use in a community.. is far les than the drug use in say detroit, chigaco

lets compare community drug use of say the UK (5.9%-12%)
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/united-kingdom-drug-situation-focal-point-annual-report/united-kingdom-drug-situation-focal-point-annual-report-2019

The proportion of 16 to 59 year olds in England and Wales who took drugs in the last year currently stands at 9.4%. The proportion of 16 to 64 year olds in Scotland who took drugs in the last year was 12% in 2017 to 2018, an increase from 7.6% reported in the 2014 to 2015 survey. Northern Ireland has the lowest prevalence in the UK of drug use in the last year: 5.9% of 15 to 64 year olds reported it in 2014 to 2015.

[Poker Player]

Well, this is nothing new. When I wrote my thread: Goodbye, privacy, goodbye, it was nice while it lasted was because it was already clear to me that the EU considers Bitcoin as an enemy, and that it will only stop considering it as such when it can control it. For example if it gets KYC the majority of transactions.

And now that CBDCs are on their way, they will do everything possible to distinguish the good cryptocurrencies (according to them), which will be the CBDCs and shitcoins that they can control, and the bad ones that will be linked to scams and organized crime, such as Bitcoin and privacy coins.

[franky1]

lets address another failure of economic understanding.. by banks!

Speculative bubbles rely on new money flowing in. Bitcoin has also repeatedly benefited from waves of new investors. The manipulations by individual exchanges or stablecoin providers etc. during the first waves are well documented, but less so the stabilising factors after the supposed bursting of the bubble in spring.

actually if they bothered to do a economic research investigation of the market of say 2012-2022

they would see that the price difference of $6-$16k is not because large whales are buying whole coins by spending 2666x more money

its actually where average joe in 2012 was spending $400 a time to get 66btc and now spending $400 to get 0.025btc

the markets are not filled with majority orders of 1btc requests.. but instead thousands(majority) of 0.0xbtc

its simple math
if you spend $1.60 for 0.0001 it converts the "price" to be $16k for 1btc without having to buy a whole coin
if you spend $320 for 0.02 it converts to a PRICE of $16k


bitcoin is not like shares where you have to buy a whole share for a share market to show a new price point on the share market.

..
also (mentioned in previous post) the banks tried to assume real value is measured in market cap

yet even they should know real hard value is not a market cap or a company share cap

when someone enters an investment deal. (watch shark tank or dragons den as examples)
where they have a business and they are asking for $100k for 10% of a company..
real hard money of only $100k swaps.. yet the company cap becomes $1m. everyone knows a company does not have the hard cash of a company cap to back up the cap amount

everyone knows not to value a company at those caps. its just a multiplier number based on current price vs shares/tokens/coins in circulation.. nothing more

even a bank should know this basic economics 101 point

market cap is a meaningless statistic. and does not show real value.
market cap is not only meaningless in crypto.. but also a meaningless statistic for company shares too

they call company market caps "valuation" but real economic minded people know thats a lie
if an accounted was to raid a company and read the accounts of a company they would not find a hard cash value amount in the company that matches a companies cap(valuation)

and banks that employ(or should be employing economics majors) should know this stuff

[pooya87]

That is pretty much the expected behavior from the corrupt banking systems in different countries. We haven't forgotten how the US banksters outright called bitcoin "fraud" while they were buying it in the dip themselves! They will continue their FUD spreading campaign for years to come.

On top of that we should expect more FUD about bitcoin coming from EU in the near future, specially if their energy crisis worsens and their need for something to pin the problem on grows. There is already talks about bitcoin mining energy consumption FUD in EU...

[yazher]

Most likely this is just the same as the negative statement regarding bitcoins before and as we can see, none of them has made a difference because right now, instead of declining, there are lots of people who want to have and use bitcoins every day. Things have not been the same for the banks since the introduction of bitcoins and other cryptocurrencies. I'm sure that they are the ones who are losing some money here because Satoshi Nakamoto has created a great option to keep your assets without interference from the Banks whatsoever.

[DapanasFruit]

I am expecting that the next piece that ECB will published is going to announcing that Bitcoin is already dead...without being aware that it has been dead many times and every time there was always a dramatic resurrection. In my own personal point of view, I don't think it is going to be ECB to decide on the future of Bitcoin...that power belongs to the people and that is something that ECB is good of denying of. Naturally, Bitcoin is one of their big targets because with decentralization and the blockchain there is more transparency and people are more empowered to take things on their own away from the governmental influence. 

[Wind_FURY]

An essay written from a standpoint of someone who actually understands what Bitcoin truly is, but writes something disingenuous to gaslight the readers, OR it's written by someone who is utterly oblivious.

Bitcoin is rarely used for legal transactions

Transactions are transactions, what's the point? Fiat has been used for many many years for illegal transactions before Bitcoin.

Regulation can be misunderstood as approval

They missed the actual point of why a true, decentralized, censorship-resistant cryptocurrency exists, which is to be used whether there is, or there is no regulation.

Promoting Bitcoin bears a reputational risk for banks

If you don't like it, IGNORE IT. But they can't ignore it, no?

The European Central Bank's "Last Stand" against Bitcoin will be their way to promote their CBDC, a CBDC with the users' Digital I.D. attached to it, controlling where they can spend, and not spend a form of money that they don't truly own.

[zasad@]

I heard that the banking system of P2P transfers works much worse in Europe. To confirm transfers, you need to call the bank or send a fax. CBDC will give more opportunities for people to easily and quickly make P2P transfers and exchange cryptocurrencies for CBDC.

[NeuroticFish]

I heard that the banking system of P2P transfers works much worse in Europe. To confirm transfers, you need to call the bank or send a fax.

There may be a misunderstanding or something I simply don't know, but aren't all the transfers in banking business involving at least a bank? So no P2P there. It's account from bank1 to account in bank2.
And I've never had to call or fax anyone for my transfers, I've just done them from the bank app on my phone and that's all.

Plus, maybe the older types of bank transfers were worse and needed that kind of checking you're talking about, but nowadays, with SEPA for example, all is faster and automated.

CBDC will give more opportunities for people to easily and quickly make P2P transfers and exchange cryptocurrencies for CBDC.

CBDCs can indeed make faster the interaction between fiat and crypto - pretty much like stable coins work. But only that will not make me cheer for them; they're far too powerful weapons against people's privacy and that's not OK.

[pooya87]

I heard that the banking system of P2P transfers works much worse in Europe. To confirm transfers, you need to call the bank or send a fax. CBDC will give more opportunities for people to easily and quickly make P2P transfers and exchange cryptocurrencies for CBDC.

Banks/CBDCs and P2P are contradicting ideas that you can't even use in the same sentence
Every time you send money to someone else using banks or even existing CBDCs you are contacting the bank and asking them to send your money to the other person's "account" on your and their behalf. In simple terms there is a middle man so it is not P2P.

BTW the CBDCs are different, they are not all the same and not for the same purpose. For instance the Venezuelan one was mostly for fund raising and filling the budget deficit (same as token scams we see in altcoin market) while the Chinese one is mostly for payment and competing with global centralized payment systems.

[Wind_FURY]

I heard that the banking system of P2P transfers works much worse in Europe. To confirm transfers, you need to call the bank or send a fax. CBDC will give more opportunities for people to easily and quickly make P2P transfers and exchange cryptocurrencies for CBDC.

Read "The Last Stand" in OP. Why would you trust the government with a protocol for programmable money which they can do how, and whatever they want. CBDC will not be like cash, ser. Cash which is hard to censor. A CBDC will be a currency which CAN be censored, with your I.D. attached to every transaction. If the Central Bank wanted that NOT ONE SINGLE CENT would go to Bitcoin exchanges, then for them it has never been easier.