Ledger Stax (Ledger's latest hardware wallet)

[dkbit98]

Decrypt just released first in-depth review of new Ledger Stax hardware wallet that is showing most we saw so far, but I am not sure if this is paid or sponsored review.
Funny enough they didn't like ledger's E-ink display ^{(I like it btw)} because it can't be fully used to display NFT's in full color, and with right they say that some users don't like wireless protocol for communicating with other devices.
I expected to see more from this review, maybe comparison with older ledger wallets or showing other improvements or weak points, but whatever.
https://decrypt.co/122367/ledger-stax-hands-on-review-hardware-wallet-ipod-design-flourishes

[zherbert]

Update on Stax from Ledger, looks like they are delayed due to the curved e-ink display. There is no new delivery date specified.

https://app.news.ledger.com/e/es?s=1909208&e=658949&elqTrackId=efd74c1a1b7a40299e524d6e5aa03bea&elq=dac020f6a554448cb87c74246b90cb5a&elqaid=674&elqat=1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1hyxbZibaY

I had predicted this is what was causing issues. https://twitter.com/zachherbert/status/1682015265326874630

Ironically the curved e-ink is only there to show a wallet label on the side so you can "stack" multiple devices together. I don't understand why anyone would need more than one device?

[dkbit98]

Update on Stax from Ledger, looks like they are delayed due to the curved e-ink display. There is no new delivery date specified.

Maybe they are also affected by ledger recover release news that resulted in decline in popularity and lower sales.
Stax maybe looks nice but I would never waste my money on this device, from inside they don't have anything special or new compared with their older models.
I don't know anyone who owns Stax wallet, and I never tested it so I can't say more about it.

Ironically the curved e-ink is only there to show a wallet label on the side so you can "stack" multiple devices together. I don't understand why anyone would need more than one device?

You mean other than making more profit for ledger?  

[tenant48]

You mean other than making more profit for ledger?  

Instead of releasing a practical thing with a regular screen without curves and also install a removable battery, they want to release this "misunderstanding". So they will not see profits, but rather will receive losses due to small sales and the need to spend their resources on supporting Ledger Stax on an equal footing with other models.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Ironically the curved e-ink is only there to show a wallet label on the side so you can "stack" multiple devices together. I don't understand why anyone would need more than one device?

I don't understand why anyone would need this device, at all:

My thoughts exactly. And not just harmless gimmicks, but gimmicks which actively compromise your security. Why on Earth would I want my hardware wallet to have my name displayed on it? So if I lose it an attacker knows who to $5 wrench attack to get the PIN? And why would I want it to display NFTs? So I can whip it out in public to show everyone my super expensive and rare NFT and make myself a target for attacks? And I really don't understand the stacking function. They want you to buy a separate device for each wallet? At $280? Lol. Or maybe you and your family members are meant to stack all your devices together in the same place to make it super easy for an attacker to steal them all at once?

Have Ledger forgotten that passphrases exist? Or derivation paths? Or even just resetting the device and entering a different seed phrase? Why would anyone need multiple devices?

And the latest gimmick is a protective case? I thought the whole point of this stupid wallet was to stack them together and show a picture on the front and text up the side? Now they are telling you to slap these cheap cases on them to stop them stacking together and to hide the picture and text?

[NotATether]

I don't understand why anyone would need this device, at all:

My thoughts exactly. And not just harmless gimmicks, but gimmicks which actively compromise your security. Why on Earth would I want my hardware wallet to have my name displayed on it? So if I lose it an attacker knows who to $5 wrench attack to get the PIN? And why would I want it to display NFTs? So I can whip it out in public to show everyone my super expensive and rare NFT and make myself a target for attacks? And I really don't understand the stacking function. They want you to buy a separate device for each wallet? At $280? Lol. Or maybe you and your family members are meant to stack all your devices together in the same place to make it super easy for an attacker to steal them all at once?

Have Ledger forgotten that passphrases exist? Or derivation paths? Or even just resetting the device and entering a different seed phrase? Why would anyone need multiple devices?

And the latest gimmick is a protective case? I thought the whole point of this stupid wallet was to stack them together and show a picture on the front and text up the side? Now they are telling you to slap these cheap cases on them to stop them stacking together and to hide the picture and text?

Remember this is a Tony Fadell design, so it has a lot of features that resemble Apple but do not make much sense for cryptocurrency at large. Minimalist interfaces do not really work in this industry.

However:

They want you to buy a separate device for each wallet?

If you mean multiple wallets in the same HW, I fail to see how that's going to be useful since not only will it have the same effect of generating more addresses inside a single wallet, but there will also be more mnemonics to write down.

[o_e_l_e_o]

If you mean multiple wallets in the same HW, I fail to see how that's going to be useful since not only will it have the same effect of generating more addresses inside a single wallet, but there will also be more mnemonics to write down.

There's the beauty of it! You don't need to write down any mnemonics! For the low price of only $10 per month per mnemonic, Ledger will store them all for you! Such secure! Many value! Wow!

There is an argument to be made to have a second hardware device which you can use for the emergency recovery of your funds should your primary device be lost, stolen, or damaged, so you don't need to risk importing your seed phrase in to a hot wallet. But if you can always just buy a new device should this happen and you are willing to wait a few days. And if you do need an emergency back up device on hand, then you can pick up something cheap like a SeedSigner and not splash out $300 for this NFT picture frame.

[satscraper]

I fail to see how that's going to be useful since not only will it have the same effect of generating more addresses inside a single wallet, but there will also be more mnemonics to write down.

If the given wallet is BIP85 compliant then there is no need to write down  all bunch of the child mnemonics. All of them are derived from a single master SEED  which  makes mnemonic management to be very easy matter. For instance in the case of HW backup one has to write down solely the master mnemonic and be safe forever. BTW, Passport 2  has such functionality as generate multiple  child SEEDs  from master mnemonic while Ledger Stax has not.

[NotATether]

If the given wallet is BIP85 compliant then there is no need to write down  all bunch of the child mnemonics. All of them are derived from a single master SEED  which  makes mnemonic management to be very easy matter. For instance in the case of HW backup one has to write down solely the master mnemonic and be safe forever. BTW, Passport 2  has such functionality as generate multiple  child SEEDs  from master mnemonic while Ledger Stax has not.

I don't like BIP85 personally, because it overloads the "coin" part of the deviation number. Coin is supposed to be used (per BIP44) to identify the coin network. As someone who's making a wallet library, this means that I won't be able to use BIP85 and multi-coins at the same time.

Why didn't they just use "account", which is also hardened? Is that not it's intended purpose?

[SFR10]

Ironically the curved e-ink is only there to show a wallet label on the side so you can "stack" multiple devices together. I don't understand why anyone would need more than one device?

They don't but somehow, they've managed to master the art of convincing their customer of the need to purchase more than a single device of the same kind ^{[refer to some of the comments in their subreddit]}.
^{- They seem to enjoy taking advantage of their ignorant users (SMH)!}

https://app.news.ledger.com/e/es?s=1909208&e=658949&elqTrackId=efd74c1a1b7a40299e524d6e5aa03bea&elq=dac020f6a554448cb87c74246b90cb5a&elqaid=674&elqat=1

• We planned to ship Ledger Stax earlier this year, but it has taken our display provider months more than they originally expected to ensure every screen matches our quality standards.

  Wait, what?! I didn't know they had any
  
  

• Often when v1.0 products come to market, they're really v0.9. This delay with the screen has allowed us to deliver a product in Ledger Stax that is truly beyond v1.0 at launch.

  IIRC, there was also a delay with Nano S Plus, but there were still a lot of issues at its launch!

[dkbit98]

I hope nobody here made a big mistake with ordering this new crap coming from ledger faketory.
First ledger forced their customers to wait more than a year for shipping to start for all preorders, but now real fun begins.
Memory space for new ledger stax device is only 1.06 MB
That can be even bigger problem in future as ledger is always increasing size of their apps.

Let me just remind everyone that ledger nono S plus has 1.28 MB and ledger nono X has 1.76 MB memory.
That means that ledger stax has smallest memory space from all devices except old ledger S with only 138 KB capacity.
I also have my doubs about durability of this new devices, especially screen part, but is another topic.



Stay away from all ledger products.

[PrivacyG]

Memory space for new ledger stax device is only 1.06 MB

Any body knows why in the World do Ledger devices have such a small storage space?  Floppy Disks introduced 40 YEARS AGO had MORE space than 'the most luxurious device' of Ledger.  Almost 300 Dollars for this feels like a Scam if you ask me.

[m2017]

First ledger forced their customers to wait more than a year for shipping to start for all preorders, but now real fun begins.

It seems that Ledger conducted a kind of crowdfunding with Stax: first they raised money, and only then produced a device for sale.

I understand that pre-orders happen a month before release, but to wait a whole year seems like a mockery (not the latest from this company) of customers.

Memory space for new ledger stax device is only 1.06 MB

Did Ledger at least try to clearly explain what this is connected with (such a small memory volume)? Is there a global shortage of larger memory chips?

That can be even bigger problem in future as ledger is always increasing size of their apps.

This means that you will have to pay extra to increase the memory of the hardware wallet. It's business, baby.

[SFR10]

First ledger forced their customers to wait more than a year for shipping to start for all preorders,

It appears that batch 2/3 are on track for another shipment delay ^{[unfortunately]}: Anyone received their June BATCH 2 Stax order?

That can be even bigger problem in future as ledger is always increasing size of their apps.

I'm pretty sure most developers can release more efficient apps, but I strongly feel this is part of their strategy to sell more of these devices ^{[it worked for the previous models]}!

Any body knows why in the World do Ledger devices have such a small storage space?

It's due to the limited flash memory space on the secure elements of their devices ^[source].

[Meuserna]

Any body knows why in the World do Ledger devices have such a small storage space?

It's due to the limited flash memory space on the secure elements of their devices ^[source].

I don't understand the point of having a secure element chip if the keys can be extracted out of the device over the internet.

[satscraper]

It's due to the limited flash memory space on the secure elements of their devices ^[source].

Correct. And I think should they need more memory for their purpose they could utilize two or three SE  even from different manufactures. Probably the current memory size fits Ledger Stax  tasks it engaged with.

I’m more concerned not with the size of the memory in Ledger's products , but with its quality, like the relevant data retention, memory wear etc..

[dkbit98]

Memory space for new ledger stax device is only 1.06 MB

Any body knows why in the World do Ledger devices have such a small storage space?

It's written Anybody not Any body.  
Microchips that are used for hardware wallets have different capacity limitations, sometimes this is done for better security.
I wouldn't say ledger is a scam for doing this, but they could announce this limitation before official release.

It seems that Ledger conducted a kind of crowdfunding with Stax: first they raised money, and only then produced a device for sale.

With ledger it's all about advertisement and they had to pay big money to apple designer Tony Fadell I think  

This means that you will have to pay extra to increase the memory of the hardware wallet. It's business, baby.

You can't increase memory of hardware wallets.

I'm pretty sure most developers can release more efficient apps, but I strongly feel this is part of their strategy to sell more of these devices ^{[it worked for the previous models]}!

They have such a stupid concept with apps that needs to be installed.
I wrote recently how they had app for Liquid Network that only worked for nono S (nother stupid thing), but than they removed the app and you can't even uninstall it from their stupid software Ledger Suite or directly from ledger device.

I don't understand the point of having a secure element chip if the keys can be extracted out of the device over the internet.

That is only optional feature (for now).

[Meuserna]

I don't understand the point of having a secure element chip if the keys can be extracted out of the device over the internet.

That is only optional feature (for now).

Prove it.

Ledger Recover may be optional, but the code required for your seed to be extracted from your hardware wallet is not optional.  It's baked into the firmware, just waiting to be hacked or worse.  We've already seen one Ledger ex-employee get fished and give hackers access to their codebase, which is only made worse by the fact that we've seen Ledger terminate lots of employees.

Again, the feature is optional, but the code is not.  And the code is on your hardware wallet whether you want it or not.

So, I ask:  What's the point of having a secure element chip if the keys can be extracted out of the device over the internet?

EDIT: I'm not saying any of this to be rude.  Since Ledger's firmware isn't open, we can't prove what the code can or can't do.  We have to take Ledger's word, which became impossible to do once Ledger started lying about so many things.

[satscraper]

So, I ask:  What's the point of having a secure element chip if the keys can be extracted out of the device over the internet?

Only those who have the relevant  secret can extract data from SE. HW manufacturer  do has it.

 The point here is the same as in the case of having the lock on the door to your house. Manufacturer of that lock also has the pertaining  secret  however you prefer to have the lock on the door rather than to keep the latter open for everyone outside.

Sure we are dealing with very sensitive stuff, namely crypto, which is attractive to virtually everyone in the world, thus the threat potentially coming  from given  manufacturer is not supposed to be ignored. Thus to be on the safe side use multisig (with cosigners from different manufacturers) to keep your stash safely.

[PrivacyG]

It's written Anybody not Any body.  

Thank you for correcting me.

-----

Ledger Recover may be optional, but the code required for your seed to be extracted from your hardware wallet is not optional.  It's baked into the firmware, just waiting to be hacked or worse.  We've already seen one Ledger ex-employee get fished and give hackers access to their codebase, which is only made worse by the fact that we've seen Ledger terminate lots of employees.

I did not verify their code if there is any that is public and verifiable.  But every time I hear about virtual switches or 'optional' stuff I become very skeptical about it.  Virtual switches are a risk.  This is why there are phones being created with physical switches for WiFi or Cameras.  And even these are being questioned for their reliability.

Is the Ledger Recover option truly optional or can it be triggered?  In the imaginary scenario of me being a target of the United States or European Governments and Ledger or Coincover secretly working with them to take me down, can this become a problem for me and the Security of my Coins?  Because many things are in my opinion very contradictory or lack sense on their 'What is Ledger Recover?' article (https://www.ledger.com/academy/what-is-ledger-recover).  For example,

Firstly, your seed phrase will never leave the Secure Element chip. Only encrypted fragments of it leave the device only if you choose to subscribe to Ledger Recover, and these fragments are useless alone.

This makes no sense.  If Coincover only has a fragment of my Seed Phrase, then I am pretty sure they can not recover my full Seed Phrase in the event I lose it.  So while fragments alone are useless, do they not hold ALL fragments necessary to recover my Wallet?  Who other than Coincover stores the rest of the fragments?  Air?

They begin the article explaining how Ledger Recover makes Self Custody more convenient and less frightening,

Self-custody is the golden standard of crypto security and Ledger’s goal is to make it easy to use. In short, this service is all about making self-custody more convenient and less frightening.

Then they say Ledger Recover is not for those who do not trust Third Parties,

Well, if you believe third parties can not be trusted, Ledger Recover is probably not for you. If you fall into that category—don’t worry. You don’t need to opt in and you don’t need to subscribe: you can continue managing your seed phrase yourself. The security of your Ledger device is not impacted.

I would quote more of their article but you get the idea.  Ledger is not to be trusted.

Who guarantees however that my connection to Ledger Live does not automatically send information through Coincover?  Who guarantees there is no way my Ledger device can be tricked into sending fragments to a bad actor?  There is no physical switch between sending or not sending my information to Coincover.  It would be different if Ledger Recover was only included in a different Firmware.  As in, you can choose between having it or not having it hard coded into your device.  But it always being there feels risky to me.  If years ago I would of said Ledger can be easily plugged in a computer heavily infected by Malware, I do not think so any more.

Hello Customers, we just hard coded a bomb into your Ledger device.  It is only optional though!  It can only be triggered if and when you want it to explode because we truly care for your Safety!