Is ChipMixer a probable HoneyPot?

[LoyceV]

don't rely on one service, especially because it itsn't trustless.

One way to make sure ChipMixer can't know all your data, is by exchanging vouchers with other users. This could even be a viable business model for some highly trusted individual: sell ChipMixer vouchers at a markup, and you're absolutely sure ChipMixer can't link your deposit to your withdrawal. Of course, some would say this service is a Honeypot too, which brings us back to square one.

Another solution would be if ChipMixer starts using Blinded Bearer Certificates. Even after reading about it several times, I still don't understand the details, but in theory, with Blinded Bearer Certificates, even ChipMixer wouldn't know who spends which outputs. There's no point in speculating about being a Honeypot, if the service for sure can't know anything about it's users.

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[nutildah]

I would vote "maybe" if that was an option.

If ChipMixer were explicitly illegal then that would be entrapment, so I'm actually leaning toward "no, they're not." (maybe that doesn't apply in certain circumstances, not certain)

I'm also a big fan of proof before jumping to conclusions when it comes to such "what if" conspiracies.

However, the fact that they haven't been sanctioned after over 5 years in business is puzzling, especially after laundering money for North Korea and several other famous hacking incidents.

For example, both Blender.io and Tornado Cash were sanctioned specifically because Lazarus Group used them to launder Ronin Bridge hack money. Lazarus also sent some of those funds to ChipMixer -- so why did they evade sanctions?

https://www.reuters.com/business/us-adds-virtual-currency-mixer-sanctions-list-over-north-koreas-cyber-activities-2022-05-06/
https://cryptoslate.com/ronin-bridge-hackers-used-chipmixer-to-launder-over-73m-of-stolen-funds/

Its indeed a curiosity.

Privacy is a very big thing (as it should be)!

People who are exceptionally concerned about this should just use Monero.

[Woodie]

The problem with conspiracy theories is that they are so convincing such that you would discard the truth for anything, why do I have this feeling that the person that came up with this is trying to use the wisdom of the masses to get information on some of these entities, better yet he/she could be a hired shill trying to get the biggest tumbler in the business out of the way and along came a new mixer business 101....but sadly any kind of news good or bad is considered as marketing.

[ChipMixer]

However, the fact that they haven't been sanctioned after over 5 years in business is puzzling

They are honest and reputable mixer existing over 5 years which mean it must be honeypot?
New mixer is much better because gov would never create new mixer?

Hansa Market (darknet drug marketplace) was honeypot for 1 month https://www.dw.com/en/alphabay-and-hansa-darknet-markets-shut-down-after-international-police-operation/a-39776885
Playpen (darknet child pornography network) was honeypot for 16 days https://www.vice.com/en/article/jpgm7d/how-the-fbi-identified-suspects-behind-the-dark-webs-largest-child-porn-site-playpen

Does anyone have example of long term gov honeypot? Cloudflare and Facebook does not count as nobody asks "why they have not been sanctioned after over 5 years".

[FinneysTrueVision]

However, the fact that they haven't been sanctioned after over 5 years in business is puzzling, especially after laundering money for North Korea and several other famous hacking incidents.

The length of time they've been in operation is irrelevant. Bitcoin Fog was around for a decade before they arrested somebody who was involved with the service.

Also, being involved in famous hacking incidents isn't enough to conclude anything. Nobody's been involved in more high profile incidents than Wasabi (Plus Token ponzi, Twitter hack, Bitfinex hack, Kucoin hack, Chinese spies, etc.) yet their developers, who aren't even anonymous, can walk around freely.

There is a myriad of reasons why some services are targeted but not others but until there is credible evidence these honeypot accusations are simply unfounded.

[Kakmakr]

You make it sound as if private businesses are not wealthy enough to fund a startup product like ChipMixer.    How many projects have started with a small budget and aggressively marketed their site and now they are fully funded and making huge profits.

Also, if it was a HoneyPot... would it not have used that information that they received via this site on some of the large cases? (The thing is.... once you are in court, you have to divulge the source of your evidence ....so a resource like this, will fold after the first court case) 

BitMixer had only 1 owner..... and he/she bailed when things got heated.

[BlackHatCoiner]

People who are exceptionally concerned about this should just use Monero.

Not all accept Monero, and it doesn't come with no other tradeoffs. Plus, I don't find one reason why users shouldn't have the freedom to choose either of these two options.

For example, both Blender.io and Tornado Cash were sanctioned specifically because Lazarus Group used them to launder Ronin Bridge hack money. Lazarus also sent some of those funds to ChipMixer -- so why did they evade sanctions?

Maybe both Blender.io and Tornado Cash were sanctioned because the developers hadn't taken the proper measures regarding their traceability. I read that Tornado Cash developer, Alexey Pertsev, was arrested. To be arrested, I understand that he hadn't been working on TC very privately. The person who runs ChipMixer is entirely unknown as far as anyone can tell.

[nutildah]

However, the fact that they haven't been sanctioned after over 5 years in business is puzzling

They are honest and reputable mixer existing over 5 years which mean it must be honeypot?

That's not what I was inferring. It's just a curious observation.

Not all accept Monero, and it doesn't come with no other tradeoffs. Plus, I don't find one reason why users shouldn't have the freedom to choose either of these two options.

You do have the freedom to choose either option -- nobody said you didn't.

I'm saying people exceptionally concerned about blockchain privacy should consider using Monero, or at least passing their BTC funds through it to break blockchain links instead of mixers. This can be done in a few different ways. Of course the privacy can always be undone by the future actions of its users, just as it can for users of ChipMixer or any other mixer.

Maybe both Blender.io and Tornado Cash were sanctioned because the developers hadn't taken the proper measures regarding their traceability. I read that Tornado Cash developer, Alexey Pertsev, was arrested. To be arrested, I understand that he hadn't been working on TC very privately. The person who runs ChipMixer is entirely unknown as far as anyone can tell.

This has nothing to do with it. First of all, they never identified the owner of Blender.io. They've sanctioned lots of anonymous entities in the past, including most of (what they know about) the Lazarus Group. Furthermore, the creator of Tornado Cash didn't necessarily think or know he was doing anything illegal when he created it. He shouldn't be in jail IMO.

[BlackHatCoiner]

I'm saying people exceptionally concerned about blockchain privacy should consider using Monero, or at least passing their BTC funds through it to break blockchain links instead of mixers.

Depends on how much money they're willing to lose, and what kind of privacy they're looking for. XMR <-> BTC conversion is more expensive (without counting the possible changes in the exchange rate). If you want to just hide yourself from a bunch of forum users who'll have a good time on looking up on your footprints, then a mixer is a enough. If you're going to launder a billion dollars, then the required trust raises some serious concern.

This has nothing to do with it. First of all, they never identified the owner of Blender.io.

So, did they just shut down the site? They didn't arrest the owner, did they?

Furthermore, the creator of Tornado Cash didn't necessarily think or know he was doing anything illegal when he created it. He shouldn't be in jail IMO.

Of course he shouldn't (for making Tornado Cash). The fact that we have a gazillion of crazy laws should further highlight the importance of Internet privacy, though.

[dkbit98]

Does anyone have example of long term gov honeypot?".

I don't know exactly how long encrypted ANOM phones existed but I think it was much longer than examples you mentioned.
Wikipedia article claims that initial device distribution was in October 2018, and they revealed themselves as Operation Trojan Shield or Operation Ironside three years later in 2021.
This is not cryptocurrency related, but it is related to privacy, and I think there could be more examples like this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANOM

PS
There was a seizure of cryptocurrencies (along other things) from people who used ANOM phones.

[nutildah]

This has nothing to do with it. First of all, they never identified the owner of Blender.io.

So, did they just shut down the site?

I don't know if they shut down the site or if it closed on its own. You can read about the specific actions taken here:

https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy0768
https://home.treasury.gov/policy-issues/financial-sanctions/recent-actions/20220506

They didn't arrest the owner, did they?

It appears there were no individuals named or arrests made in connection to blender.io.

Just FYI the link in your feedback for blenderio is about the hacking of another mixing service, Blender Wallet, not blender.io.

[PrimeNumber7]

Regarding the topic: maybe they are, maybe they are not. It will be impossible to know with any certainty in the near term, and probably for ever.

If CM is an intelligence honeypot, unless you are involved in something very bad, your privacy is likely as secure as their mixing methods. Regardless, I suspect others will employ similar ways to mix coin in the future that will make it difficult to trace the flow of mixed coin

[buwaytress]

I suppose with today's news, we can rule this theory out then? Unless they got tired and needed some funds to shore up some broken banks over the pond... tough news for a lot of people involved.

First alerted on the service thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1935179.msg61917122#msg61917122

[Yaunfitda]

I suppose with today's news, we can rule this theory out then? Unless they got tired and needed some funds to shore up some broken banks over the pond... tough news for a lot of people involved.

First alerted on the service thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1935179.msg61917122#msg61917122

Yeah, with all the speculations in this thread and probably there are more out there who thinks the CM is a honeypot with all those conspiracy theories and what's not, and in the last 24 hours, we've got the answers.

And with this shake-up, I don't know, maybe there will be a new mixing services that will come along.

Just like Bitmixer.io->Bestmixer.io->Chipmixer.io

[PrimeNumber7]

I suppose with today's news, we can rule this theory out then? Unless they got tired and needed some funds to shore up some broken banks over the pond... tough news for a lot of people involved.

Well there was a lot of data recovered by the FBI, so who knows what CM will eventually effectively be.

[mindrust]

Just like Bitmixer.io->Bestmixer.io->Chipmixer.io

There won't be a second bitmixer never ever never again. I wish there would but... I know it is not going to happen. It was like a very good dream when it was happening. You know how good dreams end. They end way too fast. Just like directbet.eu.

There are people out there that can't stand other people having good things so they have the urge to destroy anything beautiful.

Bitmixer was beautiful. Directbet.eu was beautiful. btc-e was beautiful. Now they are all dead.

DEAD

DEAD

DEAD

[DooMAD]

There won't be a second bitmixer never ever never again. I wish there would but... I know it is not going to happen. It was like a very good dream when it was happening. You know how good dreams end. They end way too fast. Just like directbet.eu.

There are people out there that can't stand other people having good things so they have the urge to destroy anything beautiful.

Perhaps there won't be other attempts and that this latest seizure puts people off.  But equally, such ideas may just be driven underground, increasing their resilience and evolving for the better.  All it takes is an enterprising individual spotting a gap in the market which they could potentially serve. 

The authorities have won some battles, but not necessarily the war.

[Dave1]

There won't be a second bitmixer never ever never again. I wish there would but... I know it is not going to happen. It was like a very good dream when it was happening. You know how good dreams end. They end way too fast. Just like directbet.eu.

There are people out there that can't stand other people having good things so they have the urge to destroy anything beautiful.

Perhaps there won't be other attempts and that this latest seizure puts people off.  But equally, such ideas may just be driven underground, increasing their resilience and evolving for the better.  All it takes is an enterprising individual spotting a gap in the market which they could potentially serve.  

The authorities have won some battles, but not necessarily the war.

And if my short stint here, Chipmixer was born when Bitmixer decided to shut down it's business because the owner is afraid that something like this is going to happen. So Chipmixer, was the result, it has evolved and it did run from 2017 up to 2023, so their business model might have improved though to be able to run that long because the authorities caught up with the so called owner. We will just have to wait, maybe in months or years, a new model will emerge and become the next big thing in tumbler or mixing services.