[ANN] [DISCUSSION] Not your keys, not your coins test

[polymerbit]

From exchanges robbing users, to increasingly encroaching KYC checks and laws...'Not your keys, not your coins' is becoming increasingly apparent.

Polymerbit will start experimenting with DIY wallets without keys again, to be made at home discretely. These wallets will be intended for large amounts of Bitcoin.

I'm working on launching a new note before the end of this year as a test.

In short, we need your help.

The challenge facing us is how to make user friendly DIY wallets.

Anyone offering to test these wallets and provide feedback on this thread will be offered the note for £10 (half price).

The forum member who finds a safe, easy-to-use open source method to generate the keys and provides a step by step guide using our paper wallets will be offered a £250 polymerbit gift card valid for two years.

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[minerjones]

Happy to help test them

[krogoth]

Happy to test as well.

  The key to all of this is how a person will be generating the wallet.

[bitbollo]

Available for a test.

[polymerbit]

Happy to test as well.

  The key to all of this is how a person will be generating the wallet.

You are 100% correct. Internally, we use an air gapped Raspberry Pi with custom UI (on top of open source key gen code).

The keys are directly printed on the polymer using an air gapped laser printer. Main benefits of doing so: safe, waterproof & seamless.

I believe that the reason why our past DIY wallets never took off outside of collectibles was because they were not user friendly.

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The fact that there is a Raspberry Pi shortage, and that most people use inkjet printers... this is not a viable DIY method.

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What is clear already is that DIY notes will need to be supplied on sheets of at least A4 (8.3 x 11.7 inches), or a single note will need to be at least the size of an A5 sheet (5.8 x 8.3 inches).

The idea of cutting out and gluing both keys feels backwards.

[Kryptowerk]

Happy to test as well.

  The key to all of this is how a person will be generating the wallet.

You are 100% correct. Internally, we use an air gapped Raspberry Pi with custom UI (on top of open source key gen code).

The keys are directly printed on the polymer using an air gapped laser printer. Main benefits of doing so: safe, waterproof & seamless.

I believe that the reason why our past DIY wallets never took off outside of collectibles was because they were not user friendly.

[...]

Just my take on it: If going for a Bitcoin or any crypto collectible, many collectors don't want DIY in general. - The BIG advantage of DIY is that you only have to trust yourself (and your skills to produce private keys) instead of a 3rd party.
However there are a handful of disadvantages coming with DIY:
- it's (quite some) extra work*
- it does need some research and effort, just to make sure your private keys are not exposed
- the collectible value of DIY seems less interesting because of two things: 1) if you keep it unfunded, it's in a way just another rare item with no direct link to crypto and 2) there is some randomness compared to factory-funded items, some people will fund them, some won't. Also, the way they apply the holo will differ.
- most importantly: if you want to resell a self-funded item with private keys produced by yourself, you need a high level of trust to be able to even find potential buyers

Your thoughts already give a clear hint, as to why DIY priv keys will probably stay very niche for another few years (until there is a TREZOR-like device with its only purpose to print out safe private keys in different formats): "Airgapped Pi, airgapped printer with special ink and paper" - Anything in that range is a lot to handle for most folks and you can't really blame them.

*I still like your challange here, you never know what comes off it - would be cool to get some creative and easy-to-use solutions as a result.

And, call me pessimistic, 'Not your keys, not your coins' - I doubt this will stay on people's mind for too long. Some yes, but the majority... Not so sure. Even after all that happened recently.

[MoparMiningLLC]

goes without saying that you know I am down to assist. Always am.

[MoparMiningLLC]

Happy to test as well.

  The key to all of this is how a person will be generating the wallet.

and whether they can be trusted - but to be honest, no one should trust anyone with key generation - I say that and I still generate keys for people who are not comfortable with generating their own.

my biggest fear or rather concern is that someone compromises their coin without their knowledge and when the funds are stolen, I get blamed because I generated the keys.

all collectibles these days should be without a key imo. But I understand why they are not and I still do purchase some items from sellers that are holding keys I dont generate - in these cases I prefer to never fund them though.

[Jambo USA]

Not sure if it's feasible, but what about making them the same size as something like a typical piece of photo paper, 4x6 does seem a bit big, but still... Then you should be able to load it like typical into most printers that have trays/ stops for it. Or maybe have the note be on a typical size of paper that just needs to be cut down to size? Might be easier to cut around the edges of the note vs printing and cutting the wallet info.

Just spit balling here

[Bullion-n-BTC]

I’d be happy to test the wallets as well as the hack-ability of the security holos. I’ve done “hack” testing on several different companies security holos. If I did this I’d share results with you privately as to not spread results. Just an offer

[dkbit98]

The fact that there is a Raspberry Pi shortage, and that most people use inkjet printers... this is not a viable DIY method.

I don't know what model of RaspberryPi you are using, but you could consider some alternatives and Rpi clones or ESP32 devices.
As for printers, maybe cheap thermal printers could be used for single notes, but problem with them is that stuff printed with them usually fades in time.
Used laser printers can also be found cheap starting from $40, unless we need some special kind for printing this notes.

[polymerbit]

The fact that there is a Raspberry Pi shortage, and that most people use inkjet printers... this is not a viable DIY method.

I don't know what model of RaspberryPi you are using, but you could consider some alternatives and Rpi clones or ESP32 devices.
As for printers, maybe cheap thermal printers could be used for single notes, but problem with them is that stuff printed with them usually fades in time.
Used laser printers can also be found cheap starting from $40, unless we need some special kind for printing this notes.

Raspberry Pi 4 Model B 8GB Ram. That is very true, laser is the way to go here.

We've tested the polymer on various brands and models. I have yet to find one where it failed the durability tests.

Some printers definitely offer higher quality prints, but frankly that is hardly relevant as long as the keys are legible.

[polymerbit]

I’d be happy to test the wallets as well as the hack-ability of the security holos. I’ve done “hack” testing on several different companies security holos. If I did this I’d share results with you privately as to not spread results. Just an offer

Thank you, but in this case we would use scratch offs. Additionally, since they are DIY (and marked as such)- this would be less important as compared to in house notes.

[polymerbit]

It is a real pity that this has become even more relevant than ever. Photos will be coming soon, sales of the product will start late next week.