A breakthrough in thermonuclear fusion technology! End of the era of hydrocarbon

[DrBeer]

Scientists in the US have moved closer to achieving completely clean energy by achieving the first net energy gain in an inertial confinement fusion reaction. The experiment was carried out using a small granule of hydrogen plasma and the world's largest laser, writes the Financial Times, citing three interlocutors who got acquainted with the preliminary results of the work of scientists.

At the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California, they managed to reproduce the process of nuclear fusion (the same process that occurs on the Sun) and get about 2.5 megajoules of energy, which is 120% higher than the energy used in lasers - 2.1 megajoules. Two FT sources noted that more energy was received than planned, causing damage to diagnostic equipment and making it difficult to analyze the results, a breakthrough already widely discussed by scientists.

https://www.ft.com/content/4b6f0fab-66ef-4e33-adec-cfc345589dc7


Your opinion ? Forecasts? Are we witnessing an unexpected end to the era of hydrocarbon fuels? Should all oil / coal / gas producing countries prepare for a "new poor life"?

[1714634634]

1714634634

[jackg]

Those countries will probably invest in the machinary for doing fusion instead imo - or just do like they did with green energy and make it hard to get and expensive...

I think it was only a matter of time until fusion replaces everything for energy production, but a long time. The experiments here are 5-40 years away from becoming mainstream depending on how much is invested in making them that way.

Oil and gas may become like any other legacy technology there is too, you're certainly not powering a car off fusion for quite some time - and those would definitely be expensive. Is one of the main sources of hydrogen currently not from hydrocarbons which could have been used for fuel?

[DrBeer]

Those countries will probably invest in the machinary for doing fusion instead imo - or just do like they did with green energy and make it hard to get and expensive...

I think it was only a matter of time until fusion replaces everything for energy production, but a long time. The experiments here are 5-40 years away from becoming mainstream depending on how much is invested in making them that way.

Oil and gas may become like any other legacy technology there is too, you're certainly not powering a car off fusion for quite some time - and those would definitely be expensive. Is one of the main sources of hydrogen currently not from hydrocarbons which could have been used for fuel?

I absolutely agree that this will not become a mass product tomorrow, and most likely it will take more than one year, or maybe 10 years, for industrial solutions. But this is a transition, a qualitative transition to a completely new level of energy. In a sense, almost free and accessible.
It's hard to say how equipment manufacturers will behave. But I am sure that after everything that the world has experienced in 2022, after "hydrocarbon economic terrorism", they will try to remove hydrocarbons, or rather dependence on them, as soon as possible!

[NeuroticFish]

I've read the news earlier today and they are great!
However, it is said that a realistic time frame for implementing this for real use is somewhere at 15-30 years.
Even more, the price of such a facility would be enormous.

So.. we'll need a little more patience...
Still, it's a great step forward, I won't deny that. We're finally on the right track.

[South Park]

Scientists in the US have moved closer to achieving completely clean energy by achieving the first net energy gain in an inertial confinement fusion reaction. The experiment was carried out using a small granule of hydrogen plasma and the world's largest laser, writes the Financial Times, citing three interlocutors who got acquainted with the preliminary results of the work of scientists.

At the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California, they managed to reproduce the process of nuclear fusion (the same process that occurs on the Sun) and get about 2.5 megajoules of energy, which is 120% higher than the energy used in lasers - 2.1 megajoules. Two FT sources noted that more energy was received than planned, causing damage to diagnostic equipment and making it difficult to analyze the results, a breakthrough already widely discussed by scientists.

https://www.ft.com/content/4b6f0fab-66ef-4e33-adec-cfc345589dc7


Your opinion ? Forecasts? Are we witnessing an unexpected end to the era of hydrocarbon fuels? Should all oil / coal / gas producing countries prepare for a "new poor life"?

For a long time I have thought that this is the real future of clean energy, the rest of the solutions to replace carbon-based fuels while important are nothing but a bridge to allow us to develop nuclear fusion as they have too many inconveniences and cannot give a constant supply of energy, and even if we are still at the experimentation stage this is a technology that will eventually become real and will generate so much excess energy that a revolution will come after it is fully developed.

[Hydrogen]

I think fusion energy could be the wrong path to pursue. It could be fundamentally flawed in terms of the containment and insulation necessary to sustain the process over the long term, not being suited to applications smaller than planetoid in scale. While the sun can sustain a fusion reaction for millions of years. The mass and gravity a sun requires to make that a long term achievement might never scale down to a miniaturized industrial grade application.

Fusions extremely high efficiency is due to its near zero energy leakage. The suns high gravity keeps everything contained providing insulation and low heat (thermal energy and mass) loss. Developing alternatives which perform the same functional tasks in a smaller application is difficult to conceive of even from a purely theoretical perspective.

[DrBeer]

I will reply to everyone
1. Yes, before the industrial design - still years of work, and honing technology. But I am sure that modern technologies and science will make it possible to reduce the time for the implementation of this, I will not be afraid of this word - a fundamental transition to a new level of humanity.
2. Conceptually, thermonuclear reactors can be implemented both in the form of gigantic stations, on a national scale, and "personal" for households, or, for example, apartment buildings. It's only a matter of time. Now you are sitting and reading this from a laptop weighing only 1.5 kg and a screen a couple of millimeters thick. 50 years ago, such power, which is now at your fingertips, occupied huge areas and looked more like a separate building
3. Now billions of dollars of investments will flow into this project and technology, from the same UAE, Qatar and others who now live off oil / gas, but understand that they need to invest in the future. And they have that opportunity. This will further accelerate the development and implementation of technology in our lives.
4. The technology is much safer than any other existing one, because if the integrity of the "container" where thermonuclear fusion takes place is violated, the plasma is instantly destroyed, and the process stops, without the possibility of "self-launch". In addition, primary fuel is absolutely harmless... When switching to Helium 3 (it's true, it is still a difficult process, due to its almost complete absence on Earth, but huge deposits on the Moon), the process becomes absolutely safe and environmentally friendly.

[Hispo]

I've read the news earlier today and they are great!
However, it is said that a realistic time frame for implementing this for real use is somewhere at 15-30 years.
Even more, the price of such a facility would be enormous.

So.. we'll need a little more patience...
Still, it's a great step forward, I won't deny that. We're finally on the right track.

I feel grateful that I will be probably alive to witness one of the most important advances of humanity in terms of energy generation.
However, one should also wonder what company or organization will have the power over this kind of future-changing technology?

I would feel optimistic if this technology was free knowledge, no patents. But I assume either Siemens, General Electric, or other one will be the only ones authorized to build and operate these facilities in the long run.

The government of the United States, might donate one of two of these facilities to their allies in order to move the world closer to zero carbon emitions, but I don't see this wonderful technology going all around the world.

[NotATether]

I can't wait to see bitcoin mining farms and power stations running on nuclear fusion. Talk about going carbon-neutral overnight.

I know this sounds far-fetched, but if I was involved in mining, I'd be happy to set up the first such farm.

[franky1]

for the science people wondering "how does it work"

first concept is to realise at the sub atomic level there is no substance. there are just frequency waves which enough waves combined at certain frequency do certain things.

from electric. to sound to light to xray
(the electro magnetic spectrum)

where certain frequencies resists/reflects other frequency and other frequencies combine or attract together. which is magnetism spectrum.. is what we feel as substance. others interfere(change frequency)and others are light frequency is the colour or ability to see it. and so on

an atom is filled with many(more then trillions) different frequencies to cause it to be felt and seen they emit these frequency waves. which with enough at certain frequencies become things like 'photons' (light energy) or sound or are attracted together in large(for nanoscale) to become substance

the process is to send enough waves from light-xray spectrum frequency which then breaks the hydrogen(bunch of frequency waves) magnetic repulsion range of frequencies, and changing the frequency to the magnetic attraction(compress/implode), which attracts and then reacts changing the waves that then represent helium +excess waves of lower frequency at the frequency useful for "energy"

this excess waves of lower frequency(heat energy) which then warms up water that is then sent to a turbine as steam to power a generator
 
they were able to do this where the amount of energy needed to cause the light-xray input.. caused an output of more waves of energy than were used to create the laser

dumbing it down...

2 grannies shouting caused 3 kids to scream. it caused more sound
(where sound represent waves.. but not at the sound spectrum/frequency)

media was reporting a (rounded) 2mj input gave a upto 3mj output
i first thought that was only 600watt in 800watt out

but that was at a faster then microsecond scale meaning, converted to a watts per hour. would be a huge number

[davis196]

Your opinion ? Forecasts? Are we witnessing an unexpected end to the era of hydrocarbon fuels? Should all oil / coal / gas producing countries prepare for a "new poor life"?

You are asking a bunch of non-experts for opinions and forecasts about a high tech/scientific topic.
I'm not an expert in nuclear power plants and physics. What kind of opinions do you want? Most of the people would say "Yeah, that's great, but it will be implemented after 20-30-40 years or more." I remember reading about thermonuclear technological breakthrough in Russia years ago. Does Russia have thermonuclear reactors right now? Nope and they won't have such reactors even after 10 years.
The fossil fuel lobby and the green energy lobby would be very upset by such news and they will do everything they can to prevent such thermonuclear projects from achieving massive success.

[Kakmakr]

Your opinion ? Forecasts? Are we witnessing an unexpected end to the era of hydrocarbon fuels? Should all oil / coal / gas producing countries prepare for a "new poor life"?

Just remember one thing..... The Oil / Coal / Gas giants have invested their profits into many other industries too, they will most probably invest their money into "new" technologies like this and continue making massive profits.

Abu Dhabi was formerly an undeveloped town of only local importance, but the emirate’s oil revenues enabled it to evolve into a modern city with a fully developed infrastructure. (Real Estate and Property Investments / Investing in Funds, Stocks, and Shares of other large companies)  

[Nhazwrath]

Always look for the information that's NOT provided.

First off.   We have been able to do fusion for quite a long time.   The problem is pretty much this...  Controlled fusion that produces more power then you spent.  Without blowing yourself up or burning the building down.


They have Not achieved that in my estimation.

And Why might you ask I say this.   Due to the Information that WAS NOT included in the announcement.   And its Very very important information.



Question that were Not answered....    or even posed. 

How Much Power did it take to Start the Reaction ...... The only information provided here was the laser power.   But what about CONTAINMENT!?  You need a whopping magnetic field to Hold the reaction that takes a ton of power as well as the lasers to start the reaction/

Secondly.  Just as Important.    How Long Were you Able to maintain the reaction before containment field failure?  See Problem 2 with fusion is containment.   Super hot Plasma from fusion reactions is Crazy strong And highly Unpredictable.   Field failure is usually measured in billionths of a second. 

So what I see here is ....   ITS GRANT TIME! news cycle.

More then willing to change my OP But Tracking the silence is as important as the noise. 


I still say with current tech Thorium reactors is the future.

[DrBeer]

I can't wait to see bitcoin mining farms and power stations running on nuclear fusion. Talk about going carbon-neutral overnight.
I know this sounds far-fetched, but if I was involved in mining, I'd be happy to set up the first such farm.

There is an assumption that shareware energy can nullify the cost of cryptocurrencies with the concept of PoW, because. a significant part of their "cost" is formed precisely by the cost of energy for mining.
No, I'm not saying that the cost of PoW will go to zero, but the price will drop. Imagine - you actually have unlimited energy, you can build a farm as high as the moon, and mine a huge amount of coins! What happens when the production of a certain product increases, with a constant demand in the market? That's right - price drop ...
But it's still far from that, unfortunately

[Xal0lex]

Your opinion ? Forecasts? Are we witnessing an unexpected end to the era of hydrocarbon fuels? Should all oil / coal / gas producing countries prepare for a "new poor life"?

My opinion is that it will be more than one year, maybe even a decade(s), before nuclear fusion becomes more or less usable in everyday life. And we should not hope that all the oil and gas tycoons will just give up in this struggle. The only thing I can say is that I am sure that someday we will use the clean energy of nuclear fusion for our own purposes.

[franky1]

Always look for the information that's NOT provided.

First off.   We have been able to do fusion for quite a long time.   The problem is pretty much this...  Controlled fusion that produces more power then you spent.  Without blowing yourself up or burning the building down.


They have Not achieved that in my estimation.

And Why might you ask I say this.   Due to the Information that WAS NOT included in the announcement.   And its Very very important information.



Question that were Not answered....    or even posed.  

How Much Power did it take to Start the Reaction ...... The only information provided here was the laser power.   But what about CONTAINMENT!?  You need a whopping magnetic field to Hold the reaction that takes a ton of power as well as the lasers to start the reaction/

Secondly.  Just as Important.    How Long Were you Able to maintain the reaction before containment field failure?  See Problem 2 with fusion is containment.   Super hot Plasma from fusion reactions is Crazy strong And highly Unpredictable.   Field failure is usually measured in billionths of a second.  

So what I see here is ....   ITS GRANT TIME! news cycle.

the laser cost is the answer to your first question about starting the reaction.

to me i see that question and answer of the experiment equivelent to saying
"a match was struck which caused a bonfire of flames. exponential heat everyone exponential heat.. "

questions i have
yes they managed to produce more energy than the lasers.
but how much outside the building cost/energy was used to produce the pellet that was burned

EG fire is free. once you strike a single match you can then produce a flame as big as a bonfire or even a forest fire.. that can maintain more energy than the initial match and far longer than the initial match burns(until it reached your finger)

but its less about the energy creation exponential of the match vs bonfire.. its about the burning of material cost to make that also needs to be added
much like burning wood in a home fire place is not about the energy from a match exponentialised into a fire. and more about the wood cost to get that exponential amount of flame

where the cost of the wood is not free
...
also in a similar topic asking about the time scales of going from lab to commercial release..

the time delay is this

phase one show science theory to get gov science grants for R&D - done
phase two build prototype - done
phase three proof of concept - done
phase four get further R&D money to alpha test for efficiency gain
phase five get DOD grant to manufacture/beta test for military submarines
phase six sell finalised reactors to DOD
phase seven use proceeds to then expand into the business sector.

it is indeed at stage three-four. and yes it is "grant finding season"


the power wattage emitted was indeed more then the power input.
which for a small capsule the size of a petit-pois pea emitted enough energy in less than a nanosecond than the entire energy grid of america.. if you calculate the american grid energy divided down to same under nano second per watt scale

however to continuously feed this once every 60 seconds at scale to offer AC power for the grid. requires more capsules and maintaining the charge and discharge

which is where they are now at the efficiency test stage of prolonging the charge-discharge time to scale up to wattage per hour instead of sub-nanosecond
the 2.1mj to 3mj equates to
583.3w to 875w per XX pico second

and also scaling down the physical size of the building surrounding the the engine. so that it can be used upon submarines or built in small towns/cities
aswell as cost control and quality control of the capsules burned(the hydrogen equivalent of firewood

[retreat]

I think it was only a matter of time until fusion replaces everything for energy production, but a long time. The experiments here are 5-40 years away from becoming mainstream depending on how much is invested in making them that way.

Fusion energy will not be able to completely replace fossil energy at any time, because fusion energy also comes from limited resources, namely uranium and plutonium and these are very limited and very toxic resources compared to fossil energy. What researchers are currently doing is only developing renewable energy which will reduce the use of fossil energy, not replace it, because it will not be possible to replace fossil energy in the future because there will be more problems that arise such as economic and political problems.

https://rentar.com/impossible-replace-fossil-fuels-alternative-fuel-sources/

And actually fossil energy is not too bad, indeed the effect of the carbon dioxide it produces causes global warming but in my opinion this problem in the next few years will be resolved with CO2 capture devices which have been developed by companies like CleanO2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JaN6kT_zRI

It's true that the development of this energy fusion is very good and I'm very amazed at it because in the future we will feel life like in Iron Man, but that doesn't need to be exaggerated because what is exaggerated is not good and also we shouldn't be distracted by problems safety of this fusion energy. Indeed they claim that this is safe and secure energy, but this has not been proven in commercialization.

[mindrust]

I don't think so. They are probably lying/bluffing so Russia and Saudis panic and sell their oil for a cheaper price. They won't fall for this trick if they are smart. Oil/Gas will be around even long after this current generation dies. It simply is the best and most practical source of energy. The problem is, the west have don't have them enough and well... nobody cares.

[DrBeer]

Always look for the information that's NOT provided.
First off. We have been able to do fusion for quite a long time. The problem is pretty much this... Controlled fusion that produces more power then you spent. Without blowing yourself up or burning the building down.
They have not achieved that in my estimation.
And why might you ask I say this. Due to the Information that WAS NOT included in the announcement. And its Very very important information.
Question that were Not answered.... or even posed.
How Much Power did it take to Start the Reaction ...... The only information provided here was the laser power. But what about CONTAINMENT!? You need a whopping magnetic field to Hold the reaction that takes a ton of power as well as the lasers to start the reaction/
Secondly. Just as important. How Long Were you Able to maintain the reaction before containment field failure? See Problem 2 with fusion is containment. Super hot Plasma from fusion reactions is Crazy strong And highly Unpredictable. Field failure is usually measured in billionths of a second.
So what I see here is .... ITS GRANT TIME! news cycle.
More then willing to change my OP But Tracking the silence is as important as the noise.
I still say with current tech Thorium reactors is the future.

1. If you carefully read the full announcement - it is indicated that the total energy spent on holding a stable plasma to obtain an energy output was less received as a result of the process. Gain/cost ratio - 120%
Yes, the energy spent on the initial start-up is not taken into account, but I am sure that with such an indicator of efficiency, the influence of "start-up" costs will tend to 0 in proportion to the operating time of the installation.

2. Thorium, against the background of controlled thermonuclear fusion, has disadvantages:
- It's hard to get. It is very diffusely distributed on Earth. Although it is estimated to be more in total than the same uranium.
- It is much more difficult and expensive to extract from the rock, due to its scattered distribution.
- Thorium is not safe, although less dangerous than plutonium/uranium. The presence of thorium aerosols is thought to increase the risk of lung, pancreatic, and blood cancers.
- The technology has not been brought to industrial widespread use either. But there are working experimental ones, for example, in the 1960s, the thorium reactor LFTR Molten-Salt Reactor Experiment was built in the USA.

[Argoo]

Your opinion ? Forecasts? Are we witnessing an unexpected end to the era of hydrocarbon fuels? Should all oil / coal / gas producing countries prepare for a "new poor life"?

You are asking a bunch of non-experts for opinions and forecasts about a high tech/scientific topic.
I'm not an expert in nuclear power plants and physics. What kind of opinions do you want? Most of the people would say "Yeah, that's great, but it will be implemented after 20-30-40 years or more." I remember reading about thermonuclear technological breakthrough in Russia years ago. Does Russia have thermonuclear reactors right now? Nope and they won't have such reactors even after 10 years.
The fossil fuel lobby and the green energy lobby would be very upset by such news and they will do everything they can to prevent such thermonuclear projects from achieving massive success.

Fossil fuel lobby has been really strong and they have really been doing their best for the last few centuries to ensure that alternative energy sources do not appear and are not used by mankind. Therefore, scientists who invented something new or were close to solving it disappeared or died for unknown reasons, or inventions were bought by someone and their developments disappeared. But now is a different time. There are only a few decades left of fossil fuels on Earth, everyone understands that it will end soon. Therefore, states are actively looking for and finding a replacement for them. Such a study itself and its positive results were not previously possible. But now there is a question of the survival of mankind due to global climate change. Here, corporate interests will no longer work.

After reading this news, I remembered one of Vanga's prophecies. She said that soon we will have several artificial suns that will evenly illuminate the Earth throughout the day. It will be a ball with a shell about six meters in diameter, inside which the same reaction will take place as in the sun. True, Vanga then predicted a catastrophe when two such artificial suns collided in the sky. But anyway, this suggests that such an invention is quite possible and it will be soon.