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December 14, 2022, 01:52:46 AM Merited by DaveF (1), dkbit98 (1) |
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Hi,
I have installed CLN on my (RPI) node as it seemed to have a better performance and to have some neat features vs LND, but I seem to be constantly hitting road blocks with it, starting with being only limited to Zeus and the defunct Zap as mobile wallets. RTL works well with it, but there is no support for ThunderHub, which seems to be better, and no access to Loop. My understanding of the issue is that CLN and LND are only compatible on the Lightning side and do not share a common RPC API for the client side, and many projects and services are developed by the LND team. So without Loop, how do users of CLN rebalance channels? I will be mostly receiving sats with my LN node... I am trying to see if I should keep trying to stick with CLN or give up and switch to LND before I start putting this into "production".
Thanks!
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HeRetiK
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December 14, 2022, 11:51:10 AM |
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I've been running a minor CLN node for a while and it definitely feels like the grass is greener on the LND side of things. At least without digging really deep into the guts of it.
The rebalancing I've been doing via commandline, though there might be a simpler way by now. Haven't followed the progress that closely lately.
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▄▄███████▄▄███████ ▄███████████████▄▄▄▄▄ ▄████████████████████▀░ ▄█████████████████████▄░ ▄█████████▀▀████████████▄ ██████████████▀▀█████████ █████████████████████████ ██████████████▄▄█████████ ▀█████████▄▄████████████▀ ▀█████████████████████▀░ ▀████████████████████▄░ ▀███████████████▀▀▀▀▀ ▀▀███████▀▀███████ | ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ Playgram.io ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀ | ▄▄▄░░ ▀▄ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ ▄▀ ▀▀▀░░
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DaveF
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December 14, 2022, 11:57:45 AM |
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Take a look at: https://www.lightningnode.info/comparisonAnd at https://www.reddit.com/r/lightningnetwork/comments/u2zknw/clightning_vs_lnd/There are also a few other discussions in general on the r/lightningnetwork subreddit about this topic. Deep in the lightning discussion posts here there are also some comparisons. With that being said, I have found clightning development a lot slower then LND but it is happening and things are being added. Just not as fast as LND This probably has a bit to do with for a few years LND was the only option for the prebuilt node images, so you tended to see more work going towards that. -Dave
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Jodmapht (OP)
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December 14, 2022, 01:07:05 PM Last edit: December 14, 2022, 01:26:49 PM by Jodmapht |
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I've been running a minor CLN node for a while and it definitely feels like the grass is greener on the LND side of things. At least without digging really deep into the guts of it.
The rebalancing I've been doing via commandline, though there might be a simpler way by now. Haven't followed the progress that closely lately.
Thanks. When you say you have been rebalancing via commandline, how do you do that? For now I expect to mostly only receive LN payments and not have to send any myself, so I would be overall using it in a very unbalanced way... Edit: Based on what I read from the links posted by DaveF, that would be PeerSwap, correct? Thanks!
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Jodmapht (OP)
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December 14, 2022, 01:24:46 PM |
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Take a look at: https://www.lightningnode.info/comparisonAnd at https://www.reddit.com/r/lightningnetwork/comments/u2zknw/clightning_vs_lnd/There are also a few other discussions in general on the r/lightningnetwork subreddit about this topic. Deep in the lightning discussion posts here there are also some comparisons. With that being said, I have found clightning development a lot slower then LND but it is happening and things are being added. Just not as fast as LND This probably has a bit to do with for a few years LND was the only option for the prebuilt node images, so you tended to see more work going towards that. -Dave Thanks for these links, they were very useful! They make me want to keep trying to stick with CLN. I did not know about Boltz.exchange. And also PeerSwap,
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HeRetiK
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December 14, 2022, 02:57:21 PM |
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I've been running a minor CLN node for a while and it definitely feels like the grass is greener on the LND side of things. At least without digging really deep into the guts of it.
The rebalancing I've been doing via commandline, though there might be a simpler way by now. Haven't followed the progress that closely lately.
Thanks. When you say you have been rebalancing via commandline, how do you do that? For now I expect to mostly only receive LN payments and not have to send any myself, so I would be overall using it in a very unbalanced way... Edit: Based on what I read from the links posted by DaveF, that would be PeerSwap, correct? Thanks! Actually I've been using the rebalance plugin, rebalancing individual channels manually: https://github.com/lightningd/plugins/tree/master/rebalanceRunning a larger node with good liquidity will definitely require some automation though and the LND ecosystem seems to have a lower learning curve in that regard.
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▄▄███████▄▄███████ ▄███████████████▄▄▄▄▄ ▄████████████████████▀░ ▄█████████████████████▄░ ▄█████████▀▀████████████▄ ██████████████▀▀█████████ █████████████████████████ ██████████████▄▄█████████ ▀█████████▄▄████████████▀ ▀█████████████████████▀░ ▀████████████████████▄░ ▀███████████████▀▀▀▀▀ ▀▀███████▀▀███████ | ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ Playgram.io ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀ | ▄▄▄░░ ▀▄ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ ▄▀ ▀▀▀░░
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BlackHatCoiner
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December 14, 2022, 03:23:21 PM |
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CLN is like the lightweight, bug-safer LND. If you're running a node on a Pi, you'll notice difference in performance. While CLN does have plugins, they don't come pre-installed as in LND, because it focuses on efficiency. Stuff such as rebalance and backup-plugin must have a better recognition and development from the LND community though.
In terms of users, I think LND is more used.
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Jodmapht (OP)
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December 14, 2022, 09:44:35 PM |
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I've been running a minor CLN node for a while and it definitely feels like the grass is greener on the LND side of things. At least without digging really deep into the guts of it.
The rebalancing I've been doing via commandline, though there might be a simpler way by now. Haven't followed the progress that closely lately.
Thanks. When you say you have been rebalancing via commandline, how do you do that? For now I expect to mostly only receive LN payments and not have to send any myself, so I would be overall using it in a very unbalanced way... Edit: Based on what I read from the links posted by DaveF, that would be PeerSwap, correct? Thanks! Actually I've been using the rebalance plugin, rebalancing individual channels manually: https://github.com/lightningd/plugins/tree/master/rebalanceRunning a larger node with good liquidity will definitely require some automation though and the LND ecosystem seems to have a lower learning curve in that regard. Thanks. My understanding though is that for what I describe, I need a swap and not a rebalancing between LN channels?
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Jodmapht (OP)
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December 14, 2022, 09:48:28 PM |
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CLN is like the lightweight, bug-safer LND. If you're running a node on a Pi, you'll notice difference in performance. While CLN does have plugins, they don't come pre-installed as in LND, because it focuses on efficiency. Stuff such as rebalance and backup-plugin must have a better recognition and development from the LND community though.
In terms of users, I think LND is more used.
Thanks! I opened a single (public) channel on CLN using RTL. It has been using 40%+ of the RPI's CPU and bugging down the SSD for over 1 hour. I am not sure what it could be doing given that there can't be anything going on in this channel since my node is not connected to any other channel and I am not doing any transaction? What am I missing?
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DaveF
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December 14, 2022, 11:16:03 PM |
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Thanks! I opened a single (public) channel on CLN using RTL. It has been using 40%+ of the RPI's CPU and bugging down the SSD for over 1 hour. I am not sure what it could be doing given that there can't be anything going on in this channel since my node is not connected to any other channel and I am not doing any transaction? What am I missing?
If you run top what process is grabbing the CPU? Also, are you sure it's not thermal throttling? Can you run vcgencmd to check? https://elinux.org/RPI_vcgencmd_usageIt's easy to get 40% load when the processor is running at 25% speed. Last year I built a bunch of nodes in a box: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5364113 and over time have had a few fan issues. Only once did it cause it to thermal throttle but when it did it caused what looked like a CPU spike but it was just running a such a slow speed that you could do anything. -Dave
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Jodmapht (OP)
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December 15, 2022, 12:25:51 AM |
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Thanks! I opened a single (public) channel on CLN using RTL. It has been using 40%+ of the RPI's CPU and bugging down the SSD for over 1 hour. I am not sure what it could be doing given that there can't be anything going on in this channel since my node is not connected to any other channel and I am not doing any transaction? What am I missing?
If you run top what process is grabbing the CPU? I see lightningd using between 40% and 100%, and bitcoind using about 15%. https://elinux.org/RPI_vcgencmd_usage[/url] It's easy to get 40% load when the processor is running at 25% speed. Last year I built a bunch of nodes in a box: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5364113 and over time have had a few fan issues. Only once did it cause it to thermal throttle but when it did it caused what looked like a CPU spike but it was just running a such a slow speed that you could do anything. -Dave It does not seem to be thermal throttling. It uses passive cooling through a case that is basically a big aluminum heat sink in thermal contact with all the heat-generating chips. I have never seen CPU temp above 45C I think. I looked many times today and the highest I saw was 42C. I can give a try with vcgencmd.
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Jodmapht (OP)
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December 15, 2022, 12:44:03 AM Last edit: December 15, 2022, 05:19:19 AM by Jodmapht |
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No throttling (RPI4 with 8 GB of RAM, using UASP+Trim for SSD): > for src in arm core h264 isp v3d uart pwm emmc pixel vec hdmi dpi ; do \ > echo -e "$src:\t$(vcgencmd measure_clock $src)" ; \ > done arm: frequency(48)=1500345728 core: frequency(1)=500000992 h264: frequency(28)=0 isp: frequency(45)=0 v3d: frequency(46)=499987808 uart: frequency(22)=48001464 pwm: frequency(25)=0 emmc: frequency(50)=250000496 pixel: frequency(29)=81000000 vec: frequency(10)=0 hdmi: frequency(0)=0 dpi: frequency(4)=0
> vcgencmd measure_temp temp=40.4'C
> top Tasks: 178 total, 1 running, 177 sleeping, 0 stopped, 0 zombie %Cpu(s): 17.8 us, 10.4 sy, 0.0 ni, 69.6 id, [b]1.5 wa[/b], 0.0 hi, 0.8 si, 0.0 st MiB Mem : 7862.9 total, 99.2 free, 2454.8 used, 5308.9 buff/cache MiB Swap: 7872.0 total, 7872.0 free, 0.0 used. 5283.3 avail Mem
PID USER PR NI VIRT RES SHR S %CPU %MEM TIME+ COMMAND 417629 cln 20 0 98872 94388 3332 S [b]38.3[/b] 1.2 105:12.34 [b]lightningd[/b] 415815 bitcoin 20 0 4350500 890128 113516 S [b]15.2[/b] 11.1 104:25.51 [b]bitcoind[/b]
> iostat 1 1000
avg-cpu: %user %nice %system %iowait %steal %idle 16.91 0.00 1.64 0.15 0.00 81.30
Device tps kB_read/s kB_wrtn/s kB_dscd/s kB_read kB_wrtn kB_dscd sda 22.92 4863.75 633.34 604.88 3876127573 504738369 482052560
avg-cpu: %user %nice %system %iowait %steal %idle 16.24 0.00 15.74 1.52 0.00 66.50
Device tps kB_read/s kB_wrtn/s kB_dscd/s kB_read kB_wrtn kB_dscd sda 172.00 13656.00 7860.00 17028.00 13656 7860 17028
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DaveF
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December 15, 2022, 01:57:04 AM |
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When possible when posting things like that use the tags it makes it easier to read.
[code] No throttling (RPI4 with 8 GB of RAM, using UASP+Trim for SSD): > for src in arm core h264 isp v3d uart pwm emmc pixel vec hdmi dpi ; do \ > echo -e "$src:\t$(vcgencmd measure_clock $src)" ; \ > done arm: frequency(48)=1500345728 core: frequency(1)=500000992 h264: frequency(28)=0 isp: frequency(45)=0 v3d: frequency(46)=499987808 uart: frequency(22)=48001464 pwm: frequency(25)=0 emmc: frequency(50)=250000496 pixel: frequency(29)=81000000 vec: frequency(10)=0 hdmi: frequency(0)=0 dpi: frequency(4)=0
> vcgencmd measure_temp temp=40.4'C
> top Tasks: 178 total, 1 running, 177 sleeping, 0 stopped, 0 zombie %Cpu(s): 17.8 us, 10.4 sy, 0.0 ni, 69.6 id, [b]1.5 wa[/b], 0.0 hi, 0.8 si, 0.0 st MiB Mem : 7862.9 total, 99.2 free, 2454.8 used, 5308.9 buff/cache MiB Swap: 7872.0 total, 7872.0 free, 0.0 used. 5283.3 avail Mem
PID USER PR NI VIRT RES SHR S %CPU %MEM TIME+ COMMAND 417629 cln 20 0 98872 94388 3332 S [b]38.3[/b] 1.2 105:12.34 [b]lightningd[/b] 415815 bitcoin 20 0 4350500 890128 113516 S [b]15.2[/b] 11.1 104:25.51 [b]bitcoind[/b]
> iostat 1 1000
avg-cpu: %user %nice %system %iowait %steal %idle 16.91 0.00 1.64 0.15 0.00 81.30
Device tps kB_read/s kB_wrtn/s kB_dscd/s kB_read kB_wrtn kB_dscd sda 22.92 4863.75 633.34 604.88 3876127573 504738369 482052560
avg-cpu: %user %nice %system %iowait %steal %idle 16.24 0.00 15.74 1.52 0.00 66.50
Device tps kB_read/s kB_wrtn/s kB_dscd/s kB_read kB_wrtn kB_dscd sda 172.00 13656.00 7860.00 17028.00 13656 7860 17028 Something is definitely not right. You should not be using that much CPU for either of them. Stupid as it may be, can you reboot and see if it clears up. Could be something else hung, but that is a guess. If you look at 1ml.com do you see the channel open? I'm exhausted, but I'm sure someone else can chime in with other ideas. -Dave[/code]
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Jodmapht (OP)
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December 15, 2022, 05:37:20 AM |
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Something is definitely not right. You should not be using that much CPU for either of them. Stupid as it may be, can you reboot and see if it clears up. Could be something else hung, but that is a guess.
If you look at 1ml.com do you see the channel open?
I'm exhausted, but I'm sure someone else can chime in with other ideas.
-Dave
top - 00:31:48 up 11 min, 6 users, load average: 1.04, 0.68, 0.48 Tasks: 175 total, 1 running, 174 sleeping, 0 stopped, 0 zombie %Cpu(s): 29.0 us, 12.4 sy, 0.0 ni, 57.1 id, 0.9 wa, 0.0 hi, 0.7 si, 0.0 st MiB Mem : 7862.9 total, 87.0 free, 1717.7 used, 6058.2 buff/cache MiB Swap: 7872.0 total, 7872.0 free, 0.0 used. 6020.7 avail Mem
PID USER PR NI VIRT RES SHR S %CPU %MEM TIME+ COMMAND 1633 cln 20 0 71608 69236 5460 S 49.0 0.9 0:22.59 lightningd 1671 cln 20 0 20196 18856 3232 S 34.4 0.2 0:13.67 lightning_gossi 747 bitcoin 20 0 3342684 633720 230944 S 13.2 7.9 1:36.80 bitcoind 712 debian-+ 20 0 53320 49208 18376 S 10.6 0.6 0:41.84 tor
Thanks. This is strange, CPU usage was normal for about 5 minutes after the reboot, then it started again. Initially lightning_gossipd uses some CPU as well, then it goes away and lightningd becomes the main consumer. Yes I see my channel as active on 1ml.com
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HeRetiK
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December 15, 2022, 09:35:27 AM |
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Actually I've been using the rebalance plugin, rebalancing individual channels manually: https://github.com/lightningd/plugins/tree/master/rebalanceRunning a larger node with good liquidity will definitely require some automation though and the LND ecosystem seems to have a lower learning curve in that regard. Thanks. My understanding though is that for what I describe, I need a swap and not a rebalancing between LN channels? Right, the method I describe is only for balancing between LN channels. To balance channels by moving coins on- and off-chain, similar to Loop's service, you'll need a swap.
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Jodmapht (OP)
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Activity: 70
Merit: 21
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December 15, 2022, 12:45:11 PM |
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Something is definitely not right. You should not be using that much CPU for either of them. Stupid as it may be, can you reboot and see if it clears up. Could be something else hung, but that is a guess.
If you look at 1ml.com do you see the channel open?
I'm exhausted, but I'm sure someone else can chime in with other ideas.
-Dave
top - 00:31:48 up 11 min, 6 users, load average: 1.04, 0.68, 0.48 Tasks: 175 total, 1 running, 174 sleeping, 0 stopped, 0 zombie %Cpu(s): 29.0 us, 12.4 sy, 0.0 ni, 57.1 id, 0.9 wa, 0.0 hi, 0.7 si, 0.0 st MiB Mem : 7862.9 total, 87.0 free, 1717.7 used, 6058.2 buff/cache MiB Swap: 7872.0 total, 7872.0 free, 0.0 used. 6020.7 avail Mem
PID USER PR NI VIRT RES SHR S %CPU %MEM TIME+ COMMAND 1633 cln 20 0 71608 69236 5460 S 49.0 0.9 0:22.59 lightningd 1671 cln 20 0 20196 18856 3232 S 34.4 0.2 0:13.67 lightning_gossi 747 bitcoin 20 0 3342684 633720 230944 S 13.2 7.9 1:36.80 bitcoind 712 debian-+ 20 0 53320 49208 18376 S 10.6 0.6 0:41.84 tor
Thanks. This is strange, CPU usage was normal for about 5 minutes after the reboot, then it started again. Initially lightning_gossipd uses some CPU as well, then it goes away and lightningd becomes the main consumer. Yes I see my channel as active on 1ml.com So when I look at the debugging information, I see thousands of lines like these Updated pending announce with update 759871x572x1/0 Received channel_announcement for channel 759871x1337x0
and lots of lines like these as well Bad gossip order: WIRE_CHANNEL_UPDATE before announcement 766980x708x1/1 Bad gossip order: WIRE_CHANNEL_UPDATE before announcement 765702x318x0/0
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Jodmapht (OP)
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December 15, 2022, 03:15:06 PM |
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These seem to all apply to LND and not CLN though, correct? I can open an issue on the CLN's repository.
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Jodmapht (OP)
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December 15, 2022, 04:29:11 PM |
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Ok, so it looks like this could be all normal and due to the fact that my LN node is new. It is supposed to calm down...
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DaveF
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Crypto Swap Exchange
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December 15, 2022, 05:46:10 PM |
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These seem to all apply to LND and not CLN though, correct? I can open an issue on the CLN's repository.
Sorry yeah, I am remote into my desktop that is logged into the forum and the last part "There might be something similar in CLightning" did not make it. Ok, so it looks like this could be all normal and due to the fact that my LN node is new. It is supposed to calm down...
At least for the CLN part, I'm not sure why core is using anything. Mine only has activity when blocks are found and even then not much. How are you powering the RPi? I have seen some 5V adapters cause issues. This is one of my favorites.... 5% over voltage with no load, add a load and I can get it to 5.5V / 10% over voltage, then bad things tm happen. -Dave
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