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Author Topic: Texts exchanged by Binance CEO and Sam Bankman-Fried as FTX collapsed  (Read 226 times)
Hydrogen (OP)
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December 15, 2022, 10:59:07 PM
Merited by OgNasty (1)
 #1

Quote
The series of about a dozen group texts between Zhao and Bankman-Fried on Nov. 10, which were obtained by The New York Times, show that key crypto leaders feared that the situation could get even worse.

The day before the embattled cryptocurrency exchange FTX filed for bankruptcy, Changpeng Zhao, the chief executive of the rival exchange Binance, sent an alarmed text to Sam Bankman-Fried, FTX's founder.

Zhao was concerned that Bankman-Fried was orchestrating crypto trades that could send the industry into a meltdown. "Stop now, don't cause more damage," Zhao wrote in a group chat with Bankman-Fried and other crypto executives Nov. 10. "The more damage you do now, the more jail time."

FTX and its sister hedge fund, Alameda Research, had just collapsed after a run on deposits exposed an $8 billion hole in the exchange's accounts. The implosion unleashed a crypto crisis, as firms with ties to FTX teetered on the brink of bankruptcy, calling the future of the entire industry into question.

The series of about a dozen group texts between Zhao and Bankman-Fried on Nov. 10, which were obtained by The New York Times, show that key crypto leaders feared that the situation could get even worse. Their frantic communications offer a glimpse into how business is conducted behind the scenes in the industry, with at least three top officials from rival companies exchanging messages in a group on the encrypted messaging app Signal.

The texts also show that industry leaders were acutely aware that the actions of a single firm or fluctuations in the value of one virtual currency could destabilize the whole industry. The exchanges became increasingly tense as Bankman-Fried and Zhao traded barbs.

Earlier that week, Zhao had agreed to buy FTX and save the exchange, before backing out of the deal. In the Nov. 10 texts, he appeared certain that FTX would not survive, and concerned that it could bring the rest of the industry down with it. During a crypto crash in May, two coins had plunged in value, triggering an industrywide meltdown and forcing several prominent firms into bankruptcy.

In the Nov. 10 texts, Zhao specifically accused Bankman-Fried of using his hedge fund to drive down the price of Tether, a so-called stablecoin whose price is designed to remain at $1.

Tether, which is issued by a company with the same name, is a linchpin of crypto trading worldwide and is commonly used by digital asset enthusiasts to conduct transactions. Industry insiders have long feared that if Tether's price fell, it would cause a domino effect that might bring the industry to its knees. (Tether ultimately did not end up losing its $1 peg.)

A spokesperson for Binance declined to comment on the text exchanges. In a statement, Bankman-Fried, 30, said Zhao's claims were "absurd."

"Trades of that size would not make a material impact on Tether's pricing, and to my knowledge neither myself nor Alameda has ever attempted to intentionally depeg Tether or any other stablecoins," he said. "I have made a number of mistakes over the past year but this is not one of them."

A spokesperson for Tether said in a statement that the company had "demonstrated its resilience to attacks." She added that FTX's actions "don't reflect the ethos and commitment of an entire industry."

FTX, a marketplace where people could buy and sell digital currencies, collapsed early last month when customers rushed to withdraw deposits, partly in response to tweets by Zhao that called the company's finances into question. FTX soon folded, sparking investigations by the Justice Department and the Securities and Exchange Commission into whether the crypto exchange had broken the law by using its customers' funds to prop up Alameda.

The Justice Department is also investigating whether Bankman-Fried engaged in market manipulation in the spring by making trades that contributed to the failure of two prominent cryptocurrencies.

For years, critics of the crypto industry have said that Tether could also be vulnerable to a collapse. Tether has long claimed its stablecoins are backed by cash and other traditional assets, and that in a crisis, all its customers could redeem their coins for the equivalent amount in dollars. But regulators have previously accused Tether of lying about the status of its reserves, sowing doubts about the coin's reliability.

In one of the Nov. 10 messages to the group chat, Zhao pointed out a $250,000 trade by Alameda that he said was designed to destabilize Tether. The trade was visible on the blockchain, a public ledger of cryptocurrency transactions that anyone can view.

In response to Zhao's accusations, Bankman-Fried seemed nonplused. "Huh?" he said. "What am I doing to stablecoins?"

"Are you claiming that you think that $250k of USDT trading would depeg it?" he added, using a common shorthand to refer to the Tether currency.

Zhao responded that he didn't think a trade of that size would succeed in destroying Tether, but that it could still cause problems.

"My honest advice: stop doing everything," Zhao said. "Put on a suit, and go back to DC, and start to answer questions."

"Thanks for the advice!" Bankman-Fried shot back.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/technology/inside-the-frantic-texts-exchanged-by-binance-ceo-and-sam-bankman-fried-as-ftx-collapsed/articleshow/96104947.cms


....


I don't know what to think about this.

Quote
The day before the embattled cryptocurrency exchange FTX filed for bankruptcy, Changpeng Zhao, the chief executive of the rival exchange Binance, sent an alarmed text to Sam Bankman-Fried, FTX's founder.

Zhao was concerned that Bankman-Fried was orchestrating crypto trades that could send the industry into a meltdown. "Stop now, don't cause more damage," Zhao wrote in a group chat with Bankman-Fried and other crypto executives Nov. 10. "The more damage you do now, the more jail time."

Supposedly, the above text exchange between SBF and Changpeng Zhao of binance, was collected and published by the new york times.

When COVID hit, I read hundreds, if not thousands, of different articles and watched what documentaries I could find published on the topic. To try to get a better idea of what was happening.

With SBF and the FTX crash, I'm doing my best to completely ignore everything about it. But it seems, I randomly stumble across many published pieces like the above which are difficult to believe are real.
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December 16, 2022, 12:16:33 AM
Merited by NotATether (1)
 #2

one swap of $250k wont do damage as a single trade

but negative arbitrage that same $250k at a 0.1% loss per round means you can generate thousands of arbitrage rounds of millions in volume.

EG
1. $250k for 249,750sc
1. 249,750sc $249.5k
repeat thousand times

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December 18, 2022, 03:07:16 PM
 #3

That's very much interesting to see people talking about Binance and if Zhao is trustworthy or not, and there is a link between the drama of FTX and starting these threads and the link is very much clear to me. People are thinking and afraid about what they saw in FTX because they know this can happen to Binance and there is not any difference between these two, so I'm not surprised if I see many people are not holding their assets on platforms like Binance anymore for staking or any kind of investing.

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December 18, 2022, 03:49:20 PM
 #4

That's very much interesting to see people talking about Binance and if Zhao is trustworthy or not,

when it comes to contagion
binance seen a fault in FTX and sold its assets and escaped from the grief of FTX
(when you see a hole in a boat and know it will sink. grab your belongings and jump ship.. raise the alarm and hope everyone else can to)

yes binance whistleblew the fault and caused FTX to go on a bank run and then fell due to lack of funds(fault of FTX)

but i am less concerned about binance.. a single business..
and more concerned about the DCG that was sister to FTX and had many business links to FTX and lost alot due to FTX

coinbase(DCG family) has 65m customers
binance only has 25m customers

if you add up all the customers of DCG family businesses..
(couple dozen custodial exchanges)
its DCG that would cause massive damage to investors if DCG failed.

shame that so many people are avoiding talking about DCG



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December 19, 2022, 02:43:18 AM
 #5


With SBF and the FTX crash, I'm doing my best to completely ignore everything about it. But it seems, I randomly stumble across many published pieces like the above which are difficult to believe are real.


It is sometime very difficult to ignore some of these news because everyday more interesting events would be exposed. And the truth is that there are still more secrets to reveal.
It is the behavior of drowning men to always want to bring down others. Maybe SBF wanted to collapse the system because Zhao backed out of the agreement to bail FTX. I cannot vouch that Binance is trustworthy but I can perceive that this exchange company has a better management structure than most crypto related firms. But the truth still remans these centralized exchanges can never be trusted.           

R


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December 19, 2022, 03:37:57 AM
 #6

i think regulators and prosecutors are this week more interested in what alameda 'queen'(SBF ex-gf) caroline ellison has to say, because she is currently in NYC, free as a bird..
i bet she is singing like a canary in a coal mine, chirping many things to get an immunity deal while outing SBF's bad deeds

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December 19, 2022, 05:07:57 AM
 #7

Honestly who knows if these texts are even real? It seemed believable up until the $250K being able to depeg tether.

Even if this was on a weekend, it is not enough to depeg tether and CZ knows this. Which leads me to believe this was just an article created to get clicks for the NYT.

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December 19, 2022, 05:15:51 AM
Last edit: December 19, 2022, 05:30:31 AM by franky1
 #8

Honestly who knows if these texts are even real? It seemed believable up until the $250K being able to depeg tether.

Even if this was on a weekend, it is not enough to depeg tether and CZ knows this. Which leads me to believe this was just an article created to get clicks for the NYT.

you would be surprised how much you can affect a price via arbitrage on limited funds

A. usdt->$usd                 1:0.9999
B. $usd ->usdc       0.9999:0.9999
C. usdc->usdt         0.9999:0.9999
A. usdt->$usd         0.9999:0.9998


you then arbitrage(a-b-c) and then uses same funds again to repeat 1000 times

$250k can generate (until you have nothing left)  over $190m volume

which is why it was not a single order of $250k. but a arbitrage bot trading fast over 1000 cycles. which is why he said "stop!"

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December 20, 2022, 06:06:57 PM
 #9

It's interesting how they talk to each other and how several top executives knew about the fall of FTX before it happened, it seems. I wonder if knowing about the crime (via group chat) and not reporting it to law enforcement amounts to being an accomplice. Could people from this chat also face criminal investigation?
I didn't quite grasp why Bankman-Fried wanted to decrease the value of Tether, but since he allegedly tried, it probably means others can try as well, and who knows, maybe one day someone will succeed. Tether is very stable, but it might also be much more fragile than many people think it is. It's not unthinkable that it would collapse, not any more unthinkable that a major exchange would collapse, and that has already happened.

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December 20, 2022, 06:23:17 PM
 #10

i bet she is singing like a canary in a coal mine, chirping many things to get an immunity deal while outing SBF's bad deeds
In coal mines, canaries sang as a warning--so your analogy here is unfortunately very wrong.  Too bad she didn't give any warning that things were going kablooey at FTX or Alameda, but I'm guessing she was clueless.  But I've no doubt you're correct that she's talking to authorities with a promise of some kind of immunity. 

OP, I don't know how important these texts are in the grand scheme of things.  They do make it look like it was amateur hour at FTX at least, and probably Binance as well.  But stuff like this comes out after every big financial disaster--the only difference with these texts is that they have to do with the crypto industry. 

Eh.  We'll see.  The whole story hasn't been told yet and it's still relatively early on in the process of investigation, prosecution, and forthcoming regulation and whatnot.

.
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December 20, 2022, 06:49:35 PM
 #11

Simply I think that it isn't cool to give to single man all of this power in the entire market, it isn't fair. Considering what happened (first Mt.gox, then see Bitfinex fact, now FTX, and there could be also other examples), today

I've heard that some mexican drug dealer also has used binance for washtrading purpose. So, the best things to do is always to keep your money safe in your wallet and avoid to give to this organization this power.


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December 20, 2022, 07:47:17 PM
 #12

Meh texts. Seen way more callous communicatives between rival execs in other industries. Seen crypto CEOs smirk chats to each other, but really no different from other autocratic structures... Even in non profits.

Only difference I would say here is they do seem to be able to make financial decisions unilaterally. A normal company or corporate structure at the most basic has multiple signoffs for various levels.

Precisely so one guy can't gamble company funds on arbitrary bets just because he has a sparkle in his eye.

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December 20, 2022, 09:04:43 PM
 #13

I am quite surprised how these people behind big businesses chat to each other in such casual way.

Anyways, I do not know what was up with CZ about those USDT SBF was moving around. My personal take is that the Binance CEO (aware of the disaster magnitude) was afraid of SBF making the situation worse for both himself and the market in general, to the point of weakening the position of Binance itself.

He had little to lose, so there was the possibility he wanted to take as many people as possible down with him, in CZ's mind.

It is that or Tether is actually such a weak stable coin that 250k$ movements could start an uncontrolled death spiral.  Roll Eyes

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December 20, 2022, 09:20:45 PM
 #14


Supposedly, the above text exchange between SBF and Changpeng Zhao of binance, was collected and published by the new york times.

When COVID hit, I read hundreds, if not thousands, of different articles and watched what documentaries I could find published on the topic. To try to get a better idea of what was happening.

With SBF and the FTX crash, I'm doing my best to completely ignore everything about it. But it seems, I randomly stumble across many published pieces like the above which are difficult to believe are real.


It's fascinating to see how these supposedly super intelligent and super rich people really are clueless when things start to run away from them. It just shows you how fragile the crypto markets really are if the owner of one of the biggest exchanges in the world is concerned about FTX selling a batch of $250k in tether tokens. You can tell it was a rather fractious and loose friendship, but they have probably had a few wild nights partying together in the past. I found it really interesting to see all the messages that were exposed from Elon Musk within this batch of conversations, because he also talks very loosely about business deals and definitely does not have any sort of master plan, it's all so reactionary.

R


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December 21, 2022, 05:42:04 AM
 #15

so binance know that ftx is doing wrong before it collapse?

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December 21, 2022, 09:48:58 AM
 #16

so binance know that ftx is doing wrong before it collapse?

For damn sure they do, and perhaps CZ didn't think that it will get out of hand until it was too late. If Binance never knew of what SBF and Alameda is up to, they will never offer to buy FTX in the first place, hence why it also resulted into them backing out of the sale - because they learned of the severity of the situation and figured they will never get something positive out of it.

It's not uncommon for business execs to know what each one is up to, especially in industries wherein they are the only ones controlling everything.

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December 21, 2022, 09:56:59 AM
 #17

For damn sure they do, and perhaps CZ didn't think that it will get out of hand until it was too late. If Binance never knew of what SBF and Alameda is up to, they will never offer to buy FTX in the first place, hence why it also resulted into them backing out of the sale - because they learned of the severity of the situation and figured they will never get something positive out of it.


is very crazy then, but to be honest CZ first who  talk about FTX at the first time he said that Binance will sell FTT tokens before ftx collapsed, and also said that the exchange was supposed to not use their token as collateral

It's not uncommon for business execs to know what each one is up to, especially in industries wherein they are the only ones controlling everything.

I know some conspiracy theories about a person or a group who take control of everything like company 'BlackRock' who almost have stock in every major companies

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December 21, 2022, 04:29:41 PM
 #18

Hmm, when you know you are doing wrong thing and it can have consequences but still you go further and keep doing it until it fails. That’s what happening here. Greed is perfect player here whose playing since the beginning of these exchanges. We should have stopped at peer to peer system and keep following the same till date but no! They had to jump and they had to invent the trading and use bitcoin as medium to generate more money. Imagine if the peer to peer approach was still in place nobody would have faced meltdown to such high extent.
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December 21, 2022, 06:13:33 PM
 #19

so binance know that ftx is doing wrong before it collapse?
If this is true, then the platform's warning is questionable, otherwise why was the fatal blow from the work of Binance, which rushed to sell its savings from the platform's assets at a low price, which caused the accelerated collapse of the platform. 
Binance is a competitive company, and it cannot be believed that it is keen on the safety of its competitors or even users of other platforms.
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December 21, 2022, 09:02:59 PM
 #20

one swap of $250k wont do damage as a single trade

but negative arbitrage that same $250k at a 0.1% loss per round means you can generate thousands of arbitrage rounds of millions in volume.

EG
1. $250k for 249,750sc
1. 249,750sc $249.5k
repeat thousand times
Yeah but did he do anything like that or is that speculation? I didn't see anything from the text hinting that he was. Even CZ admitted that what sam was doing wouldn't crash USDT but it could "cause problems".
Also if he did, it would be included in charges as blatant market manipulation. Or trying it (if that's a crime).

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