Cost of safe deposit box for seed phrase storage by you.

[Pmalek]

I live in the Netherlands, we don't have wilderness here.

I am sure you can find ways around your home where you can hide it, even in plain sight. If you own the property and you are not living on rent, that gives you all the freedom you need to make certain nifty "changes", especially if you have handyman skills. Just make it inconspicuous so that it doesn't look out of order.

That reminded me of this beauty below. Fans of OFAH should know what Del shouts just by looking at this picture:

If not, find out here.

[LoyceV]

I am sure you can find ways around your home where you can hide it, even in plain sight. If you own the property and you are not living on rent, that gives you all the freedom you need to make certain nifty "changes", especially if you have handyman skills. Just make it inconspicuous so that it doesn't look out of order.

I responded to this:

Hiding the seed phrase on wilderness is best thing.

Which isn't really possible here. For a stable place outside, I'd like it to be in rock. The nearest rocks would be the Ardennes, in Belgium. Even then, it would require coordinates, which I'd need to write down again. If I have to store +34° 59' 20", -106° 36' 52" somewhere, I can just as well add a heavy password to heavy encryption.

[apogio]

If I have to store +34° 59' 20", -106° 36' 52" somewhere, I can just as well add a heavy password to heavy encryption.

If you have to save this specific location, chances are you have something more important to hide

By the way, what is the legislation for deposit boxes? Can the bank access the box in any circumstances without your acceptance?

[LoyceV]

By the way, what is the legislation for deposit boxes? Can the bank access the box in any circumstances without your acceptance?

Legislation only helps if all bank employees with access are honest. I'm not in Bitcoin to trust anyone.

[apogio]

By the way, what is the legislation for deposit boxes? Can the bank access the box in any circumstances without your acceptance?

Legislation only helps if all bank employees with access are honest. I'm not in Bitcoin to trust anyone.

Me neither and as such I don’t use deposit boxes, but I am just curious.
I don’t find it a bad idea for people who can’t think of any alternatives, but to be honest I believe the only reason for using deposit boxes at a bank would be the fact that I didn’t own enough private places to distribute my backups and not that if I owned enough places I would trust the bank more.
I hope it makes sense.

[dkbit98]

Throwing your seed words into the sea doesn't make recovery any easier....

True, only thing left for people from Netherlands who are looking for wilderness is relocation to jungle or Netherlands Antilles in Dutch Caribbean
I think writing exact GPS coordinates could be useful for hiding and finding any hidden items, but there is no guarantee GPS would work correctly long term.
There was recently some issue that created error with many GPS devices and watches, making them unusable.

[apogio]

I think writing exact GPS coordinates could be useful for hiding and finding any hidden items, but there is no guarantee GPS would work correctly long term.
There was recently some issue that created error with many GPS devices and watches, making them unusable.

The problems that come to my mind are:

1. The Global Positioning System (GPS) is a U.S.-owned utility ^[1]
2. Because of (1) there are privacy / trust issues.
3. Also because of (1), since GPS is nothing more than a satellite, there is a system failure possibility issue.
4. An object hidden in the wild (or in public places in general) is statistically easier to be lost than an object hidden in private properties.

[1] https://www.gps.gov/systems/gps/

[LoyceV]

1. The Global Positioning System (GPS) is a U.S.-owned utility ^[1]
2. Because of (1) there are privacy / trust issues.

I can think of reasons not to use GPS, but privacy isn't one of them. Obviously you shouldn't rely on a phone that broadcasts your location (take a look at Google Takeout for example, and they'll know every place you've ever been). A stand-alone GPS receiver doesn't broadcast your location.

3. Also because of (1), since GPS is nothing more than a satellite, there is a system failure possibility issue.

It doesn't even need to fail, they can simply turn it off. But even without GPS the coordinates are still valid. It's just harder to find back, which is why I'd prefer visual recognition.

4. An object hidden in the wild (or in public places in general) is statistically easier to be lost than an object hidden in private properties.

Your middle-of-nowhere backup shouldn't be your only backup, and shouldn't be useful for anyone else.

[apogio]

4. An object hidden in the wild (or in public places in general) is statistically easier to be lost than an object hidden in private properties.

Your middle-of-nowhere backup shouldn't be your only backup, and shouldn't be useful for anyone else.

I know you will like this article, speaking of hiding backups in the "middle-of-knowhere".

I consider Jameson Lopp to be a great asset in the bitcoin community, but sometimes, I can't keep up with his pace. Some ideas that he has look incredible to know, but not to do.

[NotFuzzyWarm]

...
By the way, what is the legislation for deposit boxes? Can the bank access the box in any circumstances without your acceptance?

In the US a safe deposit box can only be accessed by whoever has the key for it (only the key is required to prove ownership) or with a court order. Access not by the owner is VERY evident as it requires drilling out the locks - someone cannot just sneak in. Banks do not have copies of the owners key, if you lose the key, after proving you own the box by going through the paper trail you will be paying for the lock being drilled and replaced.

[apogio]

In the US a safe deposit box can only be accessed by whoever has the key for it (only the key is required to prove ownership) or with a court order. Access not by the owner is VERY evident as it requires drilling out the locks - someone cannot just sneak in. Banks do not have copies of the owners key, if you lose the key, after proving you own the box by going through the paper trail you will be paying for the lock being drilled and replaced.

Well, I searched it a little and it must be the same in most EU countries.
However, what do you mean "or with a court order"? In such occasion, since the bank doesn't have the keys, I reckon they would need to drill out the locks "legally". Correct?

[LoyceV]

Access not by the owner is VERY evident as it requires drilling out the locks - someone cannot just sneak in.

I've seen enough LockPickingLawyer to know it would take only half a minute for a skilled professional to open the lock without any visual evidence.
That confirms what I already knew: safe deposit boxes rely on trust.

[apogio]

Access not by the owner is VERY evident as it requires drilling out the locks - someone cannot just sneak in.

I've seen enough LockPickingLawyer to know it would take only half a minute for a skilled professional to open the lock without any visual evidence.
That confirms what I already knew: safe deposit boxes rely on trust.

Hoooly... Imagine how easy it can be to get stolen. Are there cameras in the vault room?  If so, this could be our last resort.

[LoyceV]

Imagine how easy it can be to get stolen. Are there cameras in the vault room?

Cameras don't matter if it's an inside job. It's not really that bad though: if safe deposit boxes would regularly get robbed, they'd be out of business. So trust is really their core business, and they probably take it very seriously. But I'd never trust them, and if I'd use them, I'd use it for encrypted (backup) data only.

[apogio]

But I'd never trust them, and if I'd use them, I'd use it for encrypted (backup) data only.

Yeah that's my take as well.
To be honest, I would prefer to find a good hiding spot in a property of mine, or something like that.
Banks gain trust because "they are banks" and they are the core of our financial system. But I know for a fact that 50 years ago banks used to pay absurd amounts of money in interest for people to trust them with their deposits. Something like 15% a year. Ridiculous.

[LoyceV]

To be honest, I would prefer to find a good hiding spot in a property of mine, or something like that.

Drill a hole in a brick wall, 5 cm deeper than necessary. Put in a piece of paper, put in a fischer plug, put in a screw, hang a picture of your cat.

[Pmalek]

However, what do you mean "or with a court order"? In such occasion, since the bank doesn't have the keys, I reckon they would need to drill out the locks "legally". Correct?

If you are a thief/criminal and law enforcement believe you are hiding something in a bank's safe deposit box, they can get a judge to sign a court order to break into it and recover whatever they believe is in it. Another example: you are the heir to someone who passed away. You inherited items that the deceased kept in his safety deposit box but you don't have the key. The court can order that you get access to the box since you are a legal heir.

[apogio]

If you are a thief/criminal and law enforcement believe you are hiding something in a bank's safe deposit box, they can get a judge to sign a court order to break into it and recover whatever they believe is in it. Another example: you are the heir to someone who passed away. You inherited items that the deceased kept in his safety deposit box but you don't have the key. The court can order that you get access to the box since you are a legal heir.

Yeah, what I am actually asking is, since they allegedly don't have keys, how can they open the deposit box in case a judge says so? Do they actually drill the lock and get access to it? Or do they have a key even though they are not supposed to have one? The outcome is the same, I am just curious.

[Pmalek]

Yeah, what I am actually asking is, since they allegedly don't have keys, how can they open the deposit box in case a judge says so? Do they actually drill the lock and get access to it? Or do they have a key even though they are not supposed to have one?

I really don't know. Some bank deposit boxes require two keys, one from the user with the other provided by the bank. Others can be opened with just the key that the user holds. I would never trust a bank that tells me that they can't get access to my safety deposit box. They can block me from accessing the money in my account anytime they want, why would it be any different from physical items kept in their safes? It's their safe after all. I am just using it.

[apogio]

I really don't know. Some bank deposit boxes require two keys, one from the user with the other provided by the bank. Others can be opened with just the key that the user holds. I would never trust a bank that tells me that they can't get access to my safety deposit box. They can block me from accessing the money in my account anytime they want, why would it be any different from physical items kept in their safes? It's their safe after all. I am just using it.

Yeah I don't doubt that, at all. That's why I don't have any sort of deposit box in a bank. I am just curious.

But I 've never heard of deposit boxes which require only one key and the customer is the only key holder.