Bitcoin, Privacy, Mixers

[Woodie]

One of the best things that happened to our financial well being is getting to use & have bitcoin plus other cryptos of course, and the privilege  of some privacy as we spend and receive without giving out personal information thanks to its pseudo nature . But one business industry that has built its success around this are mixers, how do these guys really make their money without really advertising aggressively to increase their profit margins and who are the most likely clients to this business... And lastly in terms of protecting a user's footprints, can a domain host give (sell) out this information to third parties ?

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[Jawhead999]

AFAIK it depends on the mixer terms.

In chipmixer they're not asking any fee, the profit they got are from people who donate or people who send exceed amount of every chip. In the other mixers, it seems they're charge more fee, so just think like how centralized exchange make money through fixed withdrawal fee even though it's actually really cheap at the moment.

I think if you're use Tor network to access the mixer, the domain host wouldn't record anything of your privacy.

[un_rank]

how do these guys really make their money without really advertising aggressively to increase their profit margins

It depends on the business operation and varies from mixer to mixer. Chipmixer uses a donation model, Wasabi wallet takes a fee for coinjoining and so does other businesses based on their model.
And some of these businesses advertise aggressively, but only to their target demographic.

and who are the most likely clients to this business...

Anyone who cares about their privacy is their most likely client.

And lastly in terms of protecting a user's footprints, can a domain host give (sell) out this information to third parties ?

They potentially can, if they are subpoenaed. Some like chipmixer claim to destroy logs after x number of days and users can choose to extend it if they wish.

- Jay -

[NeuroticFish]

And lastly in terms of protecting a user's footprints, can a domain host give (sell) out this information to third parties ?

The advised way to access a mixer is to do it over Tor. This being said, there's no valuable information to sell, since those not using Tor may not be actual users/customers, instead only some curious people. So I would not count on getting much of info from the browser.

Of course, if a mixer is a honeypot, they can lie about not keeping client information and instead sell all the info to chain analysis companies or government agencies.
After all, trusting a mixer still means.. trusting.


Of course, unless a mixer was specifically built for as honeypot, it won't be doing that (keeping and selling user info) because it will mean they admit they are mixing funds and some agencies may not like that. So let's not become too paranoid...

[avikz]

One of the best things that happened to our financial well being is getting to use & have bitcoin plus other cryptos of course, and the privilege  of some privacy as we spend and receive without giving out personal information thanks to its pseudo nature . But one business industry that has built its success around this are mixers, how do these guys really make their money without really advertising aggressively to increase their profit margins and who are the most likely clients to this business... And lastly in terms of protecting a user's footprints, can a domain host give (sell) out this information to third parties ?

The main reason why people use mixers is to protect their privacy and break the chain of transactions. So I don't think any mixer will sell off their user's data because that's the only area on which they have built their business. But no one really knows what they do at the background. There's always a risk!

Also mixers have been a target for the regulatory agencies in US where FBI has already a mixing service to shut down. So it may be very much possible that the regulatory bodies already possess the data from the closed mixing service.

A risk factor will always be there but it's no possible to catch it in naked eye.

[jackg]

Privacy and security are huge industries so it's not surprising mixers do well in this space - much like how VPNs do well - there's so much competition in the vpn sector and most of them seem to survive well.

A mixer might log or try to decode your activity and the best way to mitigate this (like with vpns) is to use multiple hops.

Most mixer ownership remains secret even after the mixer has stopped operating so no one knows who's running these systems - they're likely small teams or individuals themselves (most organised crime groups are penetrated by law enforcement and intelligence services so it's unlikely these mixers would be run out of those).

Most users of mixers use them to hide their activity and break the chain, there are many reasons why someone would want privacy though (most people like keeping their financial situation secret and crypto on its own makes that a hard task).

[BlackHatCoiner]

how do these guys really make their money without really advertising aggressively

Top mixer is paying 5 years now lots of thousands of dollars worth of bitcoin every month to be appeared in every thread of this forum. If that isn't aggressive advertising, I really don't know what it is. 

Also, a multi-millionaire holder is reasonable to run a non-profit Bitcoin mixer, even with damages, if it's to retain their privacy. That's a potential situation too.

[dansus021]

They do make money if not why the business still active till day, i just Know sinbad be part of Bitcoin mixer, Most of bitcoin mixer get their money from user fee and user donation

Bitcoin Mixer Like sinbad maybe trow dozen for advertising because there new in this space, so they can gather more people to join

[NeuroticFish]

Bitcoin Mixer Like sinbad maybe trow dozen for advertising because there new in this space, so they can gather more people to join

Clearly. There are (at least) two types of businesses usually paying big bucks for advertising:
* The newcomers that want to be seen, checked out, attract customers, and your example is very good for that
* The established businesses that want people to see how big and important they are, businesses that want to pretty much be part of every day life. This is what Coca-Cole does at TV, this is how I see ChipMixer here on bitcointalk.

Of course, there are other cases too, like new products (see new phone releases on TV, see new games or coins in the casino or sportsbook portfolio) and others I am sure they exist, but don't really come to my mind now.
However, this is not something specific to mixers and not something specific to bitcointalk. Just something normal for all businesses and for all places that allow advertising.

[OcTradism]

They can have initial big budget for advertisement but to make it sustainable, their services and products must be well-functional and comfortable for users. After spending big initial budget for advertisement, they will have to get another source for advertisement budget that only can come from their platform income. If their balance sheet is positive, they are at profit and can assign profit partially for advertisement again.

ChipMixer is example. Their mixer is the best and profit of its operation is big enough to keep their signature campaign actively in many years.

[Jating]

One of the best things that happened to our financial well being is getting to use & have bitcoin plus other cryptos of course, and the privilege  of some privacy as we spend and receive without giving out personal information thanks to its pseudo nature . But one business industry that has built its success around this are mixers, how do these guys really make their money without really advertising aggressively to increase their profit margins and who are the most likely clients to this business... And lastly in terms of protecting a user's footprints, can a domain host give (sell) out this information to third parties ?

Some mixers ask for donations, others charge for a small fee. I think some of them are doing promotions outside of this forum and maybe in our social media as well.

I don't think that a mixer is selling info to 3rd parties, I haven't heard this from a mixer, shutdown or still alive as of this time. Of course they have logs but they are destroyed right away as they don't keep it because they know that maybe some government agencies are watching them and they don't want to compromise their clients.

[oaz7t]

Interesting, the fact that Chipmixer is solely based on the donation model amuses me. I dont know how big they are but considering the payout in their signature campaigns they must be killing it with the donations around the internet. It would have been understood if the campaign was short term, but they are running it since ages man, that much is being spent on just marketing means something good is happening to them in terms of donations. Wasabi, I know them and they have been taking a decent amount of fees so they are conventional businesses. All depends on what type of client they are getting. Must be having big bull transactions who are tipping them in thousands of bucks.

[BenCodie]

Interesting, the fact that Chipmixer is solely based on the donation model amuses me. I dont know how big they are but considering the payout in their signature campaigns they must be killing it with the donations around the internet. It would have been understood if the campaign was short term, but they are running it since ages man, that much is being spent on just marketing means something good is happening to them in terms of donations. Wasabi, I know them and they have been taking a decent amount of fees so they are conventional businesses. All depends on what type of client they are getting. Must be having big bull transactions who are tipping them in thousands of bucks.

I think it's a bit of a red flag that they pay so much here to advertise and yet it's operated by donations. That doesn't smell right to me. There must be some other form of revenue that they are receiving, or a motive that is not monetary. Unless, you are right and it is simply that the service is useful to whales and that they tip highly.

[cygan]

came across a very interesting article about the mixing today and would like to share it with you here as well (even though there are several other threads about the mixing... this one was the 'most recent')
this great article is about the ethical side of the whole procedure - but see and read it yourself

The ethics of mixing – a comprehensive essay on financial regulation and a defense of personal privacy

https://bitcoinnews.com/the-ethics-of-mixing/

[panganib999]

One of the best things that happened to our financial well being is getting to use & have bitcoin plus other cryptos of course, and the privilege  of some privacy as we spend and receive without giving out personal information thanks to its pseudo nature . But one business industry that has built its success around this are mixers, how do these guys really make their money without really advertising aggressively to increase their profit margins and who are the most likely clients to this business... And lastly in terms of protecting a user's footprints, can a domain host give (sell) out this information to third parties ?

Some mixers charge some fee apart from the transaction fees that you pay in the network to maintain operation costs and keep their employees paid. Others depend on Adsense which is why some mixers either employ the use of popup ads that come up every so often to confirm transactions, or the sidebar ads you see on some irreputable sites out there. Some like chipmixer, depend on the people's goodwill by asking for donations. So far Chipmixer's the only mixer I ever saw have success in this business model as not everyone will have the capacity let alone the conscience to donate. Long as they get what they want they call it quits and run off. Still, I guess most mixers employ the use of using multiple wallets, to mix and clean cryptocurrencies, but with enough dedication and redbull every transactions can still be tracked back to its source, it's just a matter of how good a mixer the site is, and if the coins you wanna get mixed came from scams, cos most mixers are now more inclined to helping the people rather than the scammers, and will freeze assets soon as they detect it came from fraudulent means.

[BlackHatCoiner]

I think it's a bit of a red flag that they pay so much here to advertise and yet it's operated by donations. That doesn't smell right to me. There must be some other form of revenue that they are receiving, or a motive that is not monetary. Unless, you are right and it is simply that the service is useful to whales and that they tip highly.

I don't know if whales tip generously. However, I do know that:

• There are organizations that survive solely from donations (e.g., Wikipedia, Linux).
• ChipMixer might be a big whale themselves, and usage of their own mixer, which eliminates trust, might be an invaluable product.

[TimeTeller]

I think it's a bit of a red flag that they pay so much here to advertise and yet it's operated by donations. That doesn't smell right to me. There must be some other form of revenue that they are receiving, or a motive that is not monetary. Unless, you are right and it is simply that the service is useful to whales and that they tip highly.

I don't know if whales tip generously. However, I do know that:

• There are organizations that survive solely from donations (e.g., Wikipedia, Linux).
• ChipMixer might be a big whale themselves, and usage of their own mixer, which eliminates trust, might be an invaluable product.

I believe they survive in this industry because of the fees collected from their users themselves.
If they are not generating income, then, why did they set-up their business in the first place?
In every business, the main target is always to be on the positive side rather than on the negative side.
I don't think this kind of business is relying on donations, the mixing itself with fees should give them profits to survive.
And with their profits, it is possible that they have other business ventures that people don't know about.

[BlackHatCoiner]

I believe they survive in this industry because of the fees collected from their users themselves.

What fees? They don't charge any fees. You can only donate.

If they are not generating income, then, why did they set-up their business in the first place?

I can think of various reasons. My best guess is that, as I previous said, the fact that they're owning the best Bitcoin mixer is an invaluable product itself. If you're a whale, and there is no Bitcoin mixer you can trust, what's better than setting up the best yourself? Another guess, or conspiracy theory, is that they're some governmental entity.

[Husires]

Every Mixing activity is based on profit for its continuity, and therefore without profits, that activity will stop, and therefore all mixers get profits either in the form of fees from users, or that the purpose of its establishment is money laundering, or to cover up some dark activities of institutions, or sell data to analysis companies, or They are honeypots to collect information for governments or third parties interested in purchasing that information.

Unfortunately, most mixers are centralized, so it is difficult to know where they get their money from and what they do with that money.

[OcTradism]

Every Mixing activity is based on profit for its continuity, and therefore without profits, that activity will stop, and therefore all mixers get profits either in the form of fees from users, or that the purpose of its establishment is money laundering, or to cover up some dark activities of institutions, or sell data to analysis companies, or They are honeypots to collect information for governments or third parties interested in purchasing that information.

Unfortunately, most mixers are centralized, so it is difficult to know where they get their money from and what they do with that money.

You forgot about scam mixers which likely are created to scam and steal money from their users.

Mixers/ tumblers always write announcements that they are providing best mixing services with too convincing words to acquire new users to their mixers. I read some mixers that operate a few months and suddenly shutdown or scam after their platforms received big deposit from a user and their teams decided to exit with a scam.

Using mixer is like using centralized exchanges, we should not send a too big capital in a single deposit or should never send all coin we have to a mixer. If they scam, we will lose all coins and money we have.