Are we legally associated with advertised services?

[BlackHatCoiner]

I'm not into the law, and there might be differences in each country's legislation, but I'm concerned about this. Am I considered a co-worker of the services I advertise? If the authorities strive for shutting down one of these services in my signature and avatar, am I subjected to this activity as well? If the CEO of either ChipMixer or Betnomi (as examples) is proved to be guilty, am I guilty as well?

Asking a lawyer is probably a better idea, but I'm just curious if someone else had had the same concern before.

[1715072800]

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[1715072800]

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[1715072800]

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[LoyceV]

Am I considered a co-worker of the services I advertise?

No. The entire advertising industry would collapse if that would happen.

Just think.. In all likelihood CM is an NSA honeypot anyway, lol..

(source)

[BlackHatCoiner]

No. The entire advertising industry would collapse if that would happen.

Sure, but I think the answer isn't as absolute as it might sound. If I advertise a service, aren't I considered an employee of that service? Or aren't I an employee at all? Am I considered working for somebody else? Am I subjected to the integrity of that else?

Purely hypothetical, but let's say either Betnomi or ChipMixer does money laundering (without the acknowledgement of their campaign participants). Are participants considered guilty, from a legislation point of view, for accepting laundered funds? We don't sign any legal documents when submitting the registration form, and I'm curious how far can the authorities reach this.

[BenCodie]

No. The entire advertising industry would collapse if that would happen.

Sure, but I think the answer isn't as absolute as it might sound. If I advertise a service, aren't I considered an employee of that service? Or aren't I an employee at all? Am I considered working for somebody else? Am I subjected to the integrity of that else?

Purely hypothetical, but let's say either Betnomi or ChipMixer does money laundering (without the acknowledgement of their campaign participants). Are participants considered guilty, from a legislation point of view, for accepting laundered funds? We don't sign any legal documents when submitting the registration form, and I'm curious how far can the authorities reach this.

You could be considered "affiliated" by accepting payment for advertising the service. I think that it is highly unlikely that an authority would reach their arm all the way from the founder of the service, to those who work on it technically/directly in some way, to those who manage campaigns, then to you, just for being paid a few dollars per post to have some flashy text in your signature. I doubt the arm would even reach as far as the campaign manager. As LoyceV said, the entire advertising industry would collapse if things worked that way and if it worked like this at maximum efficiency, the population of incarcerated versus not would probably be way out of balance.

If you are worried about being prosecuted for being very slightly and temporarily affiliated with a service that is very likely to have some users that are using it for illicit purposes (which is almost certain with mixing services if I'm not wrong), then don't. If you were ever prosecuted, it's probably likely that it's not the primary reason that whatever authority responsible was coming to you. I would assume (take with a grain of salt) that you'd have nothing to worry about if  you aren't already under watch for a much more serious reason and/or you are doing basic things to sufficiently upkeep your privacy.

[hugeblack]

I'm not into the law, and there might be differences in each country's legislation, but I'm concerned about this. Am I considered a co-worker of the services I advertise? If the authorities strive for shutting down one of these services in my signature and avatar, am I subjected to this activity as well? If the CEO of either ChipMixer or Betnomi (as examples) is proved to be guilty, am I guilty as well?

Asking a lawyer is probably a better idea, but I'm just curious if someone else has had the same concern before.

One of the signature campaigns that were working here was seized^[1], however, there was no court ruling related to the individuals participating in the signature campaign[2], and some of the most popular scam ICOs^[3] were published in this forum.

Therefore, for users, they are safe, but I do not think that this will be the case for campaign managers, as they are part of this system unless they write explicitly that they do not know information and that their role is limited to tracking posts and receiving payments.


[1] Dutch Police, Europol seize crypto transaction mixing service
[2] [CFNP] BestMixer Signature Campaign | Sr. Members - Legendary | Up to 0.01225BTC
[3] [ANN][ICO] 🚀 Confido - Trustless escrow payments with shipment tracking

[hilariousetc]

You're at best a third part contractor doing promotional and advertising services for another company. Of course, the laws will be different around the world so what would happen would be different depending on jurisdiction but there's little chance you would personally be in trouble, but maybe your country has different laws on what people are allowed to advertise. I'm sure you could potentially get into trouble for advertising illegal services but I would be very surprised if someone came after you or other people who were advertising a company on some random website. How would they even know who you are? It's not like you've signed a contract with them and they have all your details that law enforcement can get if they shut down a service. All they have is a username on a forum unless they subpoena the board to get more information but I doubt that would happen just to try find out who was advertising them here. With that being said, if you're worried about something then I would err on the side of caution.

[LoyceV]

Purely hypothetical, but let's say either Betnomi or ChipMixer does money laundering (without the acknowledgement of their campaign participants). Are participants considered guilty, from a legislation point of view, for accepting laundered funds?

Most of the large banks in my country have been found guilty of money laundering. The banks paid a fine, management collected their bonuses, and that's it. The end.

[BenCodie]

Purely hypothetical, but let's say either Betnomi or ChipMixer does money laundering (without the acknowledgement of their campaign participants). Are participants considered guilty, from a legislation point of view, for accepting laundered funds?

Most of the large banks in my country have been found guilty of money laundering. The banks paid a fine, management collected their bonuses, and that's it. The end.

I think it's not the best way to look at it as it would be fair to say that (at least in most places) the treatment of banks in comparison to the treatment of people in regards to most crimes are in two very different realms. Banks commit monstrosities and get fines. While sometimes even innocent people get time. Point being, a person who does happen to have legal troubles shouldn't expect to get a fine in a situation where bank would.

[hilariousetc]

Purely hypothetical, but let's say either Betnomi or ChipMixer does money laundering (without the acknowledgement of their campaign participants). Are participants considered guilty, from a legislation point of view, for accepting laundered funds?

Most of the large banks in my country have been found guilty of money laundering. The banks paid a fine, management collected their bonuses, and that's it. The end.

But he's not a large bank. Banks and other large scale businesses operate under different rules to the rest of us. HSBC was caught knowingly laundering a billion dollars for the Mexican cartel and nobody went to prison. They just paid a 2 billion fine which is probably a couple of weeks profit for them and then move on. If you laundered even a few thousand you'd go to jail and pay fines. For banks it's just a calculated risk and they'll take the chance knowing that even if they get caught they'll just pay the fees and carry on.

https://www.investopedia.com/stock-analysis/2013/investing-news-for-jan-29-hsbcs-money-laundering-scandal-hbc-scbff-ing-cs-rbs0129.aspx
https://www.independent.co.uk/independentpremium/long-reads/hsbc-laundering-mexican-cartel-blackhurst-b2097490.html

[DaveF]

Purely hypothetical, but let's say either Betnomi or ChipMixer does money laundering (without the acknowledgement of their campaign participants). Are participants considered guilty, from a legislation point of view, for accepting laundered funds?

Most of the large banks in my country have been found guilty of money laundering. The banks paid a fine, management collected their bonuses, and that's it. The end.

But he's not a large bank. Banks and other large scale businesses operate under different rules to the rest of us. HSBC was caught knowingly laundering a billion dollars for the Mexican cartel and nobody went to prison. They just paid a 2 billion fine which is probably a couple of weeks profit for them and then move on. If you laundered even a few thousand you'd go to jail and pay fines. For banks it's just a calculated risk and they'll take the chance knowing that even if they get caught they'll just pay the fees and carry on.

https://www.investopedia.com/stock-analysis/2013/investing-news-for-jan-29-hsbcs-money-laundering-scandal-hbc-scbff-ing-cs-rbs0129.aspx
https://www.independent.co.uk/independentpremium/long-reads/hsbc-laundering-mexican-cartel-blackhurst-b2097490.html

It would really depend on where you are located.
Here in the US there is a big emphasis on Mens rea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea
So there is the element of what is going on. Using your HSBC example they knew, but it was going to be just about impossible to prove who knew what and when.

If some shifty looking person shows up at my shop and I take in a few thousand in cash and take a cut and give it back with a 1099 tax form it's fairly obvious what I was doing.

So that is going to be a big part of it.

If you are wearing a signature for Bob's Meth and Heroin shop it's going to be a much more difficult thing to talk your way out of then say [looks down at signature] ChipMixer which is a legit service for people who just don't want to be tracked.

-Dave

[LeGaulois]

 Tor! Tor! Tor!

All they have is a username on a forum unless they subpoena the board to get more information but I doubt that would happen just to try find out who was advertising them here.

Really?

https://ia801909.us.archive.org/6/items/gov.uscourts.ksd.97083/gov.uscourts.ksd.97083.68.1.pdf
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1027518.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=881488.0

I've see The US doing it with 2 or 3 huge MLM or HYIPs scams such as Genius Funds 10-15 years ago. Giving trouble to people they considered promoters affiliated. I'm talking about scams but it doesn't matter, I mean the point is they can decide you're part of the scheme

Adding, but I may be wrong, that Theymos mentionned he doesn't care subponeas coming from outside The USA (his country I guess).
(that's years ago)

And see his reply to @Quickseller .
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5137259.msg50817904#msg50817904

https://i.imgflip.com/4wz1hg.jpg

NSA on my curriculum vitae... Not so bad...

[Welsh]

I've see The US doing it with 2 or 3 huge MLM or HYIPs scams such as Genius Funds 10-15 years ago. Giving trouble to people they considered promoters affiliated. I'm talking about scams but it doesn't matter, I mean the point is they can decide you're part of the scheme

I believe those were actual employees, and not someone just advertising the services. They would've had reason to believe that x belonged to y, and that would've been included in the subpeona. Like LoyceV said; the advertisement industry would be absolutely dead if advertisers were held responsible for advertising scams. However, if you advertise an illegal service, that could potentially land you in some trouble. Since a lot of the campaigns users advertise here are legitimate businesses that have been operating for years, this isn't likely to be a concern for many.

However, if the authorities expect you're related to the service any other way other than advertising, and have some convincing evidence to back that up; they will likely take it further, and include it in the request to theymos for more information. It's up to theymos then if he complies, and to what extent. Generally, he'd have to comply given the evidence was strong enough.

[Darker45]

I assume I and the company I am promoting here don't have an employer-employee relationship. I don't have to know them and they of me. Besides, there is no signed and notarized contract or agreement both of us entered to. In which case, I have no legal claim whatsoever of whatever benefits the company deserves to provide its employees. And the company itself doesn't list me as one of its employees.

At most, I am like a worker that is hired by a third-party agency. The company doesn't have responsibilities over me and I of them. I am only answerable to my campaign manager. The CM pays me according to the agreed price. Whatever agreement the CM and the company undertake, I'm not involved.

I'm not even under the company's payroll. I'm probably only under a specific marketing expense.

In the case that I'm promoting an illegal service, however, I will be held legally responsible over my actions. But it's not because I'm part of the company but because I knowingly and willingly promote something illegal.

[hilariousetc]

Tor! Tor! Tor!

All they have is a username on a forum unless they subpoena the board to get more information but I doubt that would happen just to try find out who was advertising them here.

Really?

https://ia801909.us.archive.org/6/items/gov.uscourts.ksd.97083/gov.uscourts.ksd.97083.68.1.pdf
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1027518.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=881488.0

Like I said, unless they subpoena the forum but the BFL labs case is a little different as they were probably trying to find out information about the people behind it. Also, like I said, err on the side of caution if you're worried. Law Enforcement could always decide to go after people who were advertising a service they deem illegal but unless it's a ponzi or some other scam then I think the chances of them wasting time trying to find out who was advertising a service on a message board would be slim though obviously not impossible.

I've see The US doing it with 2 or 3 huge MLM or HYIPs scams such as Genius Funds 10-15 years ago. Giving trouble to people they considered promoters affiliated. I'm talking about scams but it doesn't matter, I mean the point is they can decide you're part of the scheme

I believe those were actual employees, and not someone just advertising the services. They would've had reason to believe that x belonged to y, and that would've been included in the subpeona. Like LoyceV said; the advertisement industry would be absolutely dead if advertisers were held responsible for advertising scams. However, if you advertise an illegal service, that could potentially land you in some trouble. Since a lot of the campaigns users advertise here are legitimate businesses that have been operating for years, this isn't likely to be a concern for many.

They can and will go after Ponzi promoters etc. A fair few youtubers ended up getting into trouble for promoting these things to their audience even though they weren't directly involved they were making money from their referrals etc and spreading the scam to a larger audience. I think some even went to jail for it. Didn't some high profile celebs like Floyd Mayweather and Kim Kardashian also get into trouble for promoting pump and dumps and unregistered securities related to crypto coins as well? Those things are a little different to promoting other services but the legality of such will vary from region to region. Gambling sites are illegal in many counties for instance. I'm sure even bitcoin by itself is illegal to use in many countries too.

[Plaguedeath]

I think it will depends on how popular you are and what's your power/position on that's project.

If you're the owner, co-owner, or someone that built the project from the start, high likely you will need to face legal problem if there's a police sanction or take down the project.

If you're very popular person and everyone recognize your name, face, etc you could be follow the same path like I previously said.

But if you're just advertise the project using your account in this forum and there's no personal information you've give to anyone, IMO you will be safe since there's no way to verify you and they have no idea which person own the account.

[ultrloa]

I'm not into the law, and there might be differences in each country's legislation, but I'm concerned about this. Am I considered a co-worker of the services I advertise? If the authorities strive for shutting down one of these services in my signature and avatar, am I subjected to this activity as well? If the CEO of either ChipMixer or Betnomi (as examples) is proved to be guilty, am I guilty as well?

Asking a lawyer is probably a better idea, but I'm just curious if someone else had had the same concern before.

You didn't sign any contracts so you will not get associated on what might happen to the company do in future. For sure you will not in the list of their employee so if you are worried about anything like the scamming that might happen to the platform you advertise or to any other then you are not included to number of people who will do or seek a solution on their problem.

[JeromeTash]

Search Engines like Google literary advertise Ponzi schemes, exit scams, phishing sites every day for so many years, but I have never heard of a lawsuit against them for advertising even when known frauds such as Ponzi schemes or 1xbit

I think this is also similar to advertised service here, except that most service advertised here aren't even scams at the time of being advertised, with a few exceptions.

[Don Pedro Dinero]

I think it is clear at this stage that the answer to the OP's question is no, with some nuance.

Many of you are thinking of campaigns that you've been in for quite a long time, as I think the OP seems to be, but a lot of people are in one campaign for a couple of weeks or months, then another, then another, and so on. The courts are not going to waste time investigating who is behind a nick that got paid $70 a week for 9 weeks to advertise a service that has been outlawed in that jurisdiction, but maybe in the jurisdiction where the person behind the nick lives it is not illegal or there are no laws about it.

[Bttzed03]

~ and there might be differences in each country's legislation

It all comes down to this.

and also this:

~ If you're very popular person and everyone recognize your name, face, etc you could be follow the same path like I previously said.

From where I am from, some influencers were investigated for their participation in promoting a gambling platform on social media.

Like others have pointed out, authorities will have a harder time if you're anonymous but you might still be subjected to a probe.

[BitcoinGirl.Club]

I'm not into the law, and there might be differences in each country's legislation, but I'm concerned about this. Am I considered a co-worker of the services I advertise? If the authorities strive for shutting down one of these services in my signature and avatar, am I subjected to this activity as well? If the CEO of either ChipMixer or Betnomi (as examples) is proved to be guilty, am I guilty as well?

Let's say you are and the CEO of the projects were caught for illegal service providing. How whoever the authority it is, will find you. You are in an anonymous forum, most likely browsing using TOR. It's not easy to find you.

May be a lawyer will tell you better. But personally I do not care. I live free, die free. It's hard but bitcoin gave me an opportunity.