Thinking of separating my holdings into two physical locations.

[o_e_l_e_o]

girlfriend/spouse

So if you've been with someone for years or even decades, you've got kids or even grand-kids together, you still think you should hide your bitcoin activities from them? Maybe a new partner or spouse you've been with for only a few months, sure, but at some point when you build a life with someone, you share your finances with them.

I'm one of the strongest privacy advocates on this forum, but at some point, this just becomes common sense to let your spouse know. Why would I want to risk me suffering from memory loss or dying and none of my family being able to access or benefit from my bitcoin? My wife is fully aware of all my wallets, all my back ups, all my security, etc. Why would I want to keep that from her? If you are having so many doubts about your relationship that you think you need to keep a large part of your finances completely hidden, then you should have signed a prenup.

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[Saint-loup]

girlfriend/spouse

So if you've been with someone for years or even decades, you've got kids or even grand-kids together, you still think you should hide your bitcoin activities from them? Maybe a new partner or spouse you've been with for only a few months, sure, but at some point when you build a life with someone, you share your finances with them.

I'm one of the strongest privacy advocates on this forum, but at some point, this just becomes common sense to let your spouse know. Why would I want to risk me suffering from memory loss or dying and none of my family being able to access or benefit from my bitcoin? My wife is fully aware of all my wallets, all my back ups, all my security, etc. Why would I want to keep that from her? If you are having so many doubts about your relationship that you think you need to keep a large part of your finances completely hidden, then you should have signed a prenup.

Unfortunately I don't think a prenuptial agreement is enough to protect your assets if you are wealthy and if your spouse meets an evil lover. If she knows all your backups and your security tricks, she won't even need to steal them herself, she will just need to explain it to his lover and he/they will be able to steal your funds when you're out. Moreover you can't be 100% sure she won't repeat all those critical things to anyone else, especially your children if you have any. I wouldn't recommend that, I agree with Wind_FURY, it's not safe. There are way safer things to do if you are concerning about your legacy or a memory loss.

[Welsh]

I'm one of the strongest privacy advocates on this forum, but at some point, this just becomes common sense to let your spouse know. Why would I want to risk me suffering from memory loss or dying and none of my family being able to access or benefit from my bitcoin? My wife is fully aware of all my wallets, all my back ups, all my security, etc. Why would I want to keep that from her? If you are having so many doubts about your relationship that you think you need to keep a large part of your finances completely hidden, then you should have signed a prenup.

I share the same opinion, I mean if you don't trust your spouse then who do you trust? Since, you've picked them to spend your life with presumably. Memory loss is a real problem to contend with, and statistically a lot of us will develop a certain degree of it, whether or not it'll get bad enough that you lose complete control of it is another thing, but it definitely isn't the risk.

However, it comes from a trust point of view from me. I'd trust my spouse since I've let them in my life. Same as children, it would be completely selfish in my opinion, to have Bitcoin stuffed away in secret, and not have a way of getting your spouse or children that money.

Personally, I see certain people in my life as an extension to my security, and by that I mean they can help you if you ever lose access, whether that's through memory loss or sudden life altering accidents. They are the one's you can rely on, and therefore instead of compromising your security they enhance it. Obviously, you have to be sure you can trust them, but if you can't trust them then they probably aren't part of your daily life in the first place.

[Pmalek]

Immediate family, very close/trusted friends, girlfriend/spouse. I believe NONE of them should know that you're active in Bitcoin or any cryptocurrency, or you're a shitcoin trader.

Do you think the same way about fiat or anything else of value that you have. I guess you work somewhere and you are paid a certain sum every month. Is that also something you think should be confidential and not shared with immediate family? Many partners open join bank accounts because it's easier. A family makes big decisions together. That also includes investments. I don't they should be kept in the dark and that the bitcoin should die with you.

Having said that, I also have certain rules. My family knows what to do and where to go for the backups to recover my digital assets. But they don't have my permission to do it. More precisely, they can't do it for the fun of it, or to see if it will work, etc. And while I am alive and healthy, I am the one that works the crypto thing. It might sound silly, but they respect that. It wouldn't take me long to notice they have accessed the hiding places depending on where we are at the moment. And we are usually in the same places.     

[BlackHatCoiner]

Immediate family, very close/trusted friends, girlfriend/spouse. I believe NONE of them should know that you're active in Bitcoin or any cryptocurrency

Look, close family like your mother, father, brother, wife, child should have this information, in my opinion. However, I'd argue not disclosing it to the entire kinfolk. Like, okay, why should your brother-in-law know every little detail about you and cryptocurrencies? It's not he the problem, it's the fact that he may disclose it to people whom you would not approve of disclosing, and result into this thing none of us want to; becoming a target.

[Welsh]

Look, close family like your mother, father, brother, wife, child should have this information, in my opinion. However, I'd argue not disclosing it to the entire kinfolk. Like, okay, why should your brother-in-law know every little detail about you and cryptocurrencies? It's not he the problem, it's the fact that he may disclose it to people whom you would not approve of disclosing, and result into this thing none of us want to; becoming a target.

It's going to vastly differ for everyone. You might not trust even immediate family members, but almost everyone has someone they can trust. There's always that chance; where you might trust them to leave the Bitcoin alone, and only act upon it if something were to happen to you, but unfortunately if you don't want other people knowing you own Bitcoin, that could be harder to trust that someone doesn't mention it. However, you could just make that clear, and if people did find out, you just remove access since that was one of the requirements for trusting them.

I don't know though, blabbing about your Bitcoin probably isn't worth jeopardizing family. I feel like most people that are worth trusting, and you'd consider trusting in the first place would know that.

[Saint-loup]

Immediate family, very close/trusted friends, girlfriend/spouse. I believe NONE of them should know that you're active in Bitcoin or any cryptocurrency, or you're a shitcoin trader.

Do you think the same way about fiat or anything else of value that you have. I guess you work somewhere and you are paid a certain sum every month. Is that also something you think should be confidential and not shared with immediate family? Many partners open join bank accounts because it's easier. A family makes big decisions together. That also includes investments. I don't they should be kept in the dark and that the bitcoin should die with you.

Having said that, I also have certain rules. My family knows what to do and where to go for the backups to recover my digital assets. But they don't have my permission to do it. More precisely, they can't do it for the fun of it, or to see if it will work, etc. And while I am alive and healthy, I am the one that works the crypto thing. It might sound silly, but they respect that. It wouldn't take me long to notice they have accessed the hiding places depending on where we are at the moment. And we are usually in the same places.      

I don't think we are talking about the same thing actually, you seem to talk about funds/investments belonging to your couple/family while Wind_FURY and me are talking about your own funds, money that you want to keep for yourself. If someone wants to "target" you as BlackHatCoiner says because you owe him money or because you're wealthy. Don't you think it would be unfair that he tries to target your wife or your children instead of you, because he knows or he thinks you are the kind of guy sharing your crypto seed with his family and it will be easier to use social engineering tricks on them or worse things than that? Sharing things with people can expose them to dangers related to those things unfortunately.      

[o_e_l_e_o]

I don't think we are talking about the same thing actually, you seem to talk about funds/investments belonging to your couple/family while Wind_FURY and me are talking about your own funds, money that you want to keep for yourself.

But I don't have anything I want to keep from my family. What good is my money to me after I'm dead? Why would I not want my family to have access to it?

Don't you think it would be unfair that he tries to target your wife or your children instead of you, because he knows or he thinks you are the kind of guy sharing your crypto seed with his family and it will be easier to use social engineering tricks on them or worse things than that?

If someone knows enough about you to target you for your bitcoin holdings, they aren't going to care if your spouse does or does not know your wallet passwords, the location of your back ups, etc. They will be quite happy to kidnap and hit either of you until one of you tells them what they want to know.

As I said previously, this is part of the reason I argue so strongly for good privacy. If no else knows you own bitcoin, then you are less of a target. But at the same time I trust my wife not to tell everyone she meets that we hold bitcoin, just as I trust her not to tell everyone she meets our credit card details.

[Synchronice]

I wasn't quite sure how to summarize it in the title just as I'm not quite sure if this is the exact place where the thread should go. Let me explain and you tell me.

So far I have been managing my Bitcoin holdings using a HW in a location and in the same location I have had the seeds well hidden and written down on a piece of paper.

As I accumulate, I have been thinking of buying another HW and storing it in a vacation home, just like the seeds, in the same way, written down and hidden. It would be about handling half of my holdings at each site.

What do you think? I don't think it would make sense, for example to have copies of the seeds of both HW's at both sites because in a $5 wrench attack I could lose everything.

One drawback I see is that if the house burns down I would lose everything I manage with one HW, but well, that risk I also had now, having 100% of the management of my holdings in one site.

1. First of all be sure that no one knows your identity on this forum because in that case you are posting quite sensitive information.
2. Vacation home is a secondary residence. I assume you don't visit your vacation home frequently, that means it's left without attention most of the time. Because of this, thieves often target vacation homes. I suggest you to find a better place but since I don't know where are you from, what's the crime rate and the structure of the cities, towns, it's hard to confidently give advice.
3. Higher the security, higher the responsibility.
4. In case to not worry much about fire, water and unpleasant cases, have a look at Trezor Hardware Wallet Accessories.

[m2017]

Look, close family like your mother, father, brother, wife, child should have this information, in my opinion. However, I'd argue not disclosing it to the entire kinfolk. Like, okay, why should your brother-in-law know every little detail about you and cryptocurrencies? It's not he the problem, it's the fact that he may disclose it to people whom you would not approve of disclosing, and result into this thing none of us want to; becoming a target.

It's going to vastly differ for everyone. You might not trust even immediate family members, but almost everyone has someone they can trust. There's always that chance; where you might trust them to leave the Bitcoin alone, and only act upon it if something were to happen to you, but unfortunately if you don't want other people knowing you own Bitcoin, that could be harder to trust that someone doesn't mention it. However, you could just make that clear, and if people did find out, you just remove access since that was one of the requirements for trusting them.

I don't know though, blabbing about your Bitcoin probably isn't worth jeopardizing family. I feel like most people that are worth trusting, and you'd consider trusting in the first place would know that.

You can talk about your btc only to those friends and relatives to whom you are ready to give and leave it as a legacy. First you need to have a conversation with them with basic information about bitcoin, and even better, so that they learn how to use and store safely. These should be people you fully trust and will have access to btc in case of unforeseen circumstances with you.

There is an unspoken rule that you can invest in bitcoin only the money that you are ready to lose. I will try to continue this thought and say that you can give access to information about your bitcoin only to those people to whom you are ready to give your btc for free.

This is an indicator of personal trust and value of these people for you.

[Saint-loup]

I don't think we are talking about the same thing actually, you seem to talk about funds/investments belonging to your couple/family while Wind_FURY and me are talking about your own funds, money that you want to keep for yourself.

But I don't have anything I want to keep from my family. What good is my money to me after I'm dead? Why would I not want my family to have access to it?

You don't need to share your security secrets with your wife to let her inherit your cryptos after your death. You can simply encrypt your seed with a password (or use a split seed) and write this password in your will left at a notary or in a sealed envelope given to relatives. You can also schedule a mail to her birthday for example, and cancel it every year if you are not dead or amnesiac, or you can simply use a service that allow your heirs or trusted people to access your datas after your death or after being inactive during a given amount of time, like this one for example.

Don't you think it would be unfair that he tries to target your wife or your children instead of you, because he knows or he thinks you are the kind of guy sharing your crypto seed with his family and it will be easier to use social engineering tricks on them or worse things than that?

If someone knows enough about you to target you for your bitcoin holdings, they aren't going to care if your spouse does or does not know your wallet passwords, the location of your back ups, etc. They will be quite happy to kidnap and hit either of you until one of you tells them what they want to know.

As I said previously, this is part of the reason I argue so strongly for good privacy. If no else knows you own bitcoin, then you are less of a target. But at the same time I trust my wife not to tell everyone she meets that we hold bitcoin, just as I trust her not to tell everyone she meets our credit card details.

Well unfortunately there is not only one way to use violence for extorting money or informations from people. Anyway I'm not sure people are kidnapped and tortured everyday for this purpose, but I'm sure people are scammed everyday, so IMO there are more chances for your spouse to be scammed than being kidnapped thankfully. So what will you do, if someone is able to imitate your voice and ask her by phone to immediately send all your funds to a given address because you've been hacked and you are away, for example?

[Pmalek]

Look, close family like your mother, father, brother, wife, child should have this information, in my opinion. However, I'd argue not disclosing it to the entire kinfolk. Like, okay, why should your brother-in-law know every little detail about you and cryptocurrencies?

That's what I said as well. Not everyone belongs to the same circle of trust. Your immediate family should be in the inner circle. Most other people fit on some of the outer rings.   

I don't think we are talking about the same thing actually, you seem to talk about funds/investments belonging to your couple/family while Wind_FURY and me are talking about your own funds, money that you want to keep for yourself.

Your stuff becomes hers, and hers becomes yours. Anything else, won't work long term. I don't see how a successful marriage could work if you told your wife this is mine and that's yours. Stay on your side of the room. I am exaggerating with the last part.

If someone wants to "target" you as BlackHatCoiner says because you owe him money or because you're wealthy. Don't you think it would be unfair that he tries to target your wife or your children instead of you, because he knows or he thinks you are the kind of guy sharing your crypto seed with his family and it will be easier to use social engineering tricks on them or worse things than that?

I will answer that with a counter question. If someone wants to hurt your family because they think that could earn them money, don't you think they will do it despite what your wife knows? As a threat so that you pay, and a warning what will happen if you don't.

Anyway I'm not sure people are kidnapped and tortured everyday for this purpose, but I'm sure people are scammed everyday, so IMO there are more chances for your spouse to be scammed than being kidnapped thankfully. So what will you do, if someone is able to imitate your voice and ask her by phone to immediately send all your funds to a given address because you've been hacked and you are away, for example?

If kidnapping doesn't occur that often, what are the chances someone who speaks and sounds just like you calls your wife and asks her to send all your crypto somewhere? Or even uses some software that sounds like you?

[Poker Player]

Those of you who talk about your wife knowing everything about your bitcoin holdings, I hope you have them declared to the authorities, as I recently heard about a case where the wife upon divorce reported to the authorities that the ex-husband had undeclared bitcoin that he should have declared.

Besides, I personally know of a couple of close cases of divorces where the men told me that they did not know the person they had loved so much in the past because of how she behaved in the process. With divorce rates in industrialized countries being very high and 70-80% of divorces being initiated by women, depending on the location, it is something to be cautious about.

Edit: I just saw a quote that comes up.

Of course we follow the law to the extent that it makes sense, but we do not follow it to the extent that we turn out to be fools who pay taxes to the extent that someone takes half of what we have made as profit. For example, in my country I would have to file taxes every week when I get paid from my signature campaign because it is considered other income and must be declared upon receipt within a few days. Not only do I not want to spend time on it every week, I also do not want to finance corrupt politicians from the prime minister down to the lowest levels with more money than I already do.

In the case of Lucius, who I believe is the only one in the entire forum who does not declare what he earns in his signature campaigns, as the rest of us are responsible, law-abiding citizens, I say that in his case, his wife knowing the Bitcoin he earns, how he earns it and how he keeps it can become very dangerous in a potential divorce proceeding.

[Welsh]

Those of you who talk about your wife knowing everything about your bitcoin holdings, I hope you have them declared to the authorities, as I recently heard about a case where the wife upon divorce reported to the authorities that the ex-husband had undeclared bitcoin that he should have declared.

Besides, I personally know of a couple of close cases of divorces where the men told me that they did not know the person they had loved so much in the past because of how she behaved in the process. With divorce rates in industrialized countries being very high and 70-80% of divorces being initiated by women, depending on the location, it is something to be cautious about.

I mean, I hope users have declared their earnings regardless of the threat of a divorce. Although, divorces often get ugly, especially if it's not a mutual agreement. Usually, there's plenty of rows over who gets what, and it's a rather lengthy process too. Although, honestly most marriages you can see it happening, and there's certain reasons why it leads to that. Obviously, for the minority it's a little more complicated than that. However, I'd like to think that most couples can get through most of their difficulties, and once you've been with someone long enough, as long as you show them the same attention, and are very much still connected the same, you should be able to trust them indefinitely.

Divorce is tricky, since usually it's not by mutual agreement, and then one party is out to hurt the other. Usually, the person who's been handed the divorce letters, feels betrayed, and therefore looks to gain everything they can, and actively hurt the other since they've been hurt. I've seen this a few times now in life. Although, that's the agreement you sign up for. Technically, you're saying what is mine is yours, and you should be expected to split everything equally, no matter who bought what. Plus, for me if things did fall apart towards the end, I'd want them to be set up for their next chapter in life, I wouldn't want to see them struggle.

[Pmalek]

Those of you who talk about your wife knowing everything about your bitcoin holdings, I hope you have them declared to the authorities, as I recently heard about a case where the wife upon divorce reported to the authorities that the ex-husband had undeclared bitcoin that he should have declared.

Besides, I personally know of a couple of close cases of divorces where the men told me that they did not know the person they had loved so much in the past because of how she behaved in the process. With divorce rates in industrialized countries being very high and 70-80% of divorces being initiated by women, depending on the location, it is something to be cautious about.

Of course, we have. I speak for everyone when I say that all our countries have been so helpful and open-minded with everything Bitcoin. They have offered free education, tax benefits, and a simple reporting and administrative process to declare our crypto holdings. It's a one-click task. It's so good giving back when you have had so much support by your local authorities.      Not

Divorces get ugly, no one can deny that. But if your partner has some dirt on you, they can use that against you if the situation escalates to that point. It doesn't have to be anything related to crypto. Maybe you have a stash of cash somewhere that you saved over the years whenever customers paid in cash (that you didn't declare) in your business. Some people do that. Maybe you smoke marihuana and she will rat you out on that. Maybe your boss gifted you an expensive watch for a successful project, but you never declared it, etc., etc.

The point is, everyone has done something that isn't legal, and that can be used against them by those closest to them unfortunately.

[o_e_l_e_o]

You can simply encrypt your seed with a password (or use a split seed) and write this password in your will left at a notary

True, and that's a good system for someone who does not have anyone they can trust. But if you do have someone you can trust, you don't need to do this. It also doesn't help very much in the situation where I suffer memory problems but am still very much alive, which happens to literally millions of people a year, and can be a very long and complex process to gain access to the assets of someone who is still alive.

Handing a sealed envelope to a relative is no different to just telling them how to access your coins in the first place. Both depend 100% on trust.

You can also schedule a mail to her birthday for example, and cancel it every year if you are not dead or amnesiac, or you can simply use a service that allow your heirs or trusted people to access your datas after your death or after being inactive during a given amount of time, like this one for example.

I would be very careful trusting any third party with any part of my recovery process. A regulated lawyer is maybe acceptable - a service ran by one of the worst offenders when it comes to privacy (Google) definitely is not.

So what will you do, if someone is able to imitate your voice and ask her by phone to immediately send all your funds to a given address because you've been hacked and you are away, for example?

Well, first she couldn't, because my back ups are not in one location, so it would take her time to recover all the necessary pieces in order to gain access to the wallets. Secondly, she's not an idiot so that wouldn't happen. There are literally thousands of questions she could ask to which only I could answer to confirm it was me. And third, if this was a realistic prospect, then there is nothing stopping the same thing happening to all our fiat accounts too.

[Saint-loup]

Handing a sealed envelope to a relative is no different to just telling them how to access your coins in the first place. Both depend 100% on trust.

I wouldn't give my seed to relatives, even in a sealed envelope, and I wouldn't recommend anyone to do it. Because if someone steals it from them, you will lose all your funds. I was just suggesting to give them the password of the encrypted seed(or a share of your split seed) you want to bequeath to your wife, instead of a notary. Even if they open the envelope and guess it's a password of an encrypted seed, they won't be able to find it if you don't say to them where it is located.

You can also schedule a mail to her birthday for example, and cancel it every year if you are not dead or amnesiac, or you can simply use a service that allow your heirs or trusted people to access your datas after your death or after being inactive during a given amount of time, like this one for example.

I would be very careful trusting any third party with any part of my recovery process. A regulated lawyer is maybe acceptable - a service ran by one of the worst offenders when it comes to privacy (Google) definitely is not.

Why? What Google could do with a password of an offline encrypted seed ? You think an employee could guess it's a password of an encrypted Bitcoin seed and could break into your house, to find and steal it?

So what will you do, if someone is able to imitate your voice and ask her by phone to immediately send all your funds to a given address because you've been hacked and you are away, for example?

Well, first she couldn't, because my back ups are not in one location, so it would take her time to recover all the necessary pieces in order to gain access to the wallets. Secondly, she's not an idiot so that wouldn't happen. There are literally thousands of questions she could ask to which only I could answer to confirm it was me. And third, if this was a realistic prospect, then there is nothing stopping the same thing happening to all our fiat accounts too.

Bank transfers can be reversed if the money hasn't been withdrawn, instant transfers have a maximum limit and normal transfers take one working day to be executed. You can't open a bank account without giving your ID in addition.
Besides that, if there is already a risk that your wife does that with your fiat money why do you want to add an extra risk with your cryptos?

[larry_vw_1955]

Even better if you can use multiple different passphrases. 0.1 BTC on the seed phrase which you can give up under duress. If they keep hitting you, 0.5 BTC under an additional passphrase which you can give up as well. Meanwhile 5 BTC under a much stronger different passphrase which you keep hidden.

you got alot of people that merited this point of view but i'm not so sure i agree with the philosophy of having staggered amounts in various wallets. on one hand, i guess it could limit your losses if an armed thug is not so determined and happy with getting $2000 without really pressing you for more. but what happens if the 0.1BTC is not enough? how much are you willing to go through before you admit to the 0.5BTC wallet and turn that over? once they see that you're playing this game, the sky is really the limit and then the real risk becomes that they don't believe you when you say the 5BTC wallet was the biggest one you had because you said that about all the other ones too.  then you're really in trouble. could be in trouble.

also i guess it goes without saying that you would need to have a way of memorizing and producing the passphrases in a certain order of increasing btc content value. another difficulty in this scheme.

obviously no one wants to give up a huge stash to the first thug that threatens them with a wrench but i say just have a 0.1BTC or 0.5BTC wallet and be done with it. that should be enough. unless they have a reason to believe you are worth far more...

[Pmalek]

you got alot of people that merited this point of view but i'm not so sure i agree with the philosophy of having staggered amounts in various wallets. on one hand, i guess it could limit your losses if an armed thug is not so determined and happy with getting $2000 without really pressing you for more. but what happens if the 0.1BTC is not enough? how much are you willing to go through before you admit to the 0.5BTC wallet and turn that over? once they see that you're playing this game, the sky is really the limit and then the real risk becomes that they don't believe you when you say the 5BTC wallet was the biggest one you had because you said that about all the other ones too.  then you're really in trouble. could be in trouble.

It's a combination of a few factors. First of all, the thieves shouldn't even know you have 0.1 BTC, let alone, 0.5 or 5 BTC. If they already know that, you have messed up somewhere and the question now is how far are they willing to go? Killing someone isn't the same as robbing someone. You get life imprisonment for the former and maybe 5 or 10 years for the latter. It depends, of course, on the country. 

Your acting skills will also affect the outcome. Make it believable you don't have more than 0.1 BTC. If they know you do, they will tell you about it. Based on that you can figure out if they really know or if it's a game of phishing. 

[o_e_l_e_o]

I was just suggesting to give them the password of the encrypted seed(or a share of your split seed) you want to bequeath to your wife, instead of a notary. Even if they open the envelope and guess it's a password of an encrypted seed, they won't be able to find it if you don't say to them where it is located.

And if you don't tell them what it is or where your encrypted seed is located, then how will they recover it after your death? Either you tell them your whole set up, in which case you are trusting them just like I trust my wife, or you don't tell them the set up, in which case you run the risk of them never being able to recover your coins.

If you don't have a family member you can trust, then there are trustless ways to set up inheritance, such as by using timelocked transactions. This is a better solution than giving out passwords in envelopes.

Why? What Google could do with a password of an offline encrypted seed ?

Leak it over the entire internet, as they've done with plenty of data in the past? Store it in plaintext, as they were caught doing with users' passwords for 14 years? Or maybe just shut down the service you are relying on, meaning your data is lost forever.

Besides that, if there is already a risk that your wife does that with your fiat money why do you want to add an extra risk with your cryptos?

Because she is not an idiot. If she is at risk of falling to such a low level scam, then so is everyone on this forum and nobody's bitcoin is safe. Not to mention that it would be significantly more difficult and time consuming for her to collect all the necessary back ups to start emptying various bitcoin wallets than it would be to log in to a fiat account and empty it out.