Should BTC amounts greater than 10.000E be declared when leaving the country?

[zasad@]

My suggestion is that  you should not carry more than 0.4 BTC (aprox 10k euros) in your mobile phone.

If you are walking with your live savings in your hardware wallet, you need to hide the main seed using a passphrase.

I was not thinking about a hardware wallet but about a mobile wallet. Anyway, most important is to know what the law says. And even if the law would say "yes, declare crypto amounts greater than 10.000E" it's still a gray situation. Look at it in this way:

• you have an online wallet with more than 10.000E worth of BTC; as it is an online wallet, you don't have it with you. But you can still spend this amount in the country where you travel, right?
• you have a mobile wallet with more than 10.000E worth of BTC; (1) you don't declare it as you believe no custom officer would ever check your phone: if this happens (meaning your phone will not be checked) then you are free to spend the money; (2) you delete it and reinstall it once you are inside the destination country: again, nobody can stop you from spending; (3) you save wallet.dat and upload it on your email then delete the wallet: once you reach your destination you are free to spend as much as you want; (4) you delete and restore the wallet using a pass phrase etc.

I myself have not encountered this, but my friends warned me about customs checks.
They were asked to unlock their phone and checked which offers were installed. The customs officers checked which YouTube channels they subscribed to. I think that this is not related to cryptocurrencies, but when crossing the border it is better to remove cryptocurrency wallets from your phone and laptop.

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[GazetaBitcoin]

I myself have not encountered this, but my friends warned me about customs checks.
They were asked to unlock their phone and checked which offers were installed.

Seriously? In this case situation is worst than I thought... I did not imagine that they actually check people's phones... I mean I wrote above about this possibility, but I did not actually think it is happening. May I ask in what countries your friend encountered such zealous custom officers?

The customs officers checked which YouTube channels they subscribed to.

This is ridiculous! Why don't they check the porn sites history then?

I think that this is not related to cryptocurrencies, but when crossing the border it is better to remove cryptocurrency wallets from your phone and laptop.

Considering what you just said I think it's a good advice.

Just curious though: do you know if your friends have crypto wallets on their phones? I'm asking as I'm thinking that, maybe, this is what they were looking for. And, in case your friends did not have any wallet they started to check their YouTube history, to not have their superiors saying they did not make random check at least... And, maybe, if they had crypto wallets then maybe they would be looked with more suspicion...? I can't believe we are living such days.

[Poker Player]

I myself have not encountered this, but my friends warned me about customs checks.
They were asked to unlock their phone and checked which offers were installed.

Seriously? In this case situation is worst than I thought... I did not imagine that they actually check people's phones... I mean I wrote above about this possibility, but I did not actually think it is happening. May I ask in what countries your friend encountered such zealous custom officers?

The customs officers checked which YouTube channels they subscribed to.

This is ridiculous! Why don't they check the porn sites history then?

I've only seen that in the Border Control program (or something like that is called) at the Canadian border if I remember correctly, but I doubt very much that they do that in European countries.

Now think about this: again, let's suppose the law coerces you to declare big amounts. And you declare you have 15.000E in BTC. What will happen? Or what happens if you actually have 15.000E fiat? Or 20.000E? Do they confiscate what's over 10.000E? Would they confiscate your BTC too (what's over 10.000E)?

Not at all.

Just because you have to declare them does not mean that you cannot pass with a higher amount. Here the problem is that you have Bitcoins with privacy and you do not want them to know but you can have €20k in cash or Bitcoin of legal and declared origin, that if you want to cross the border the only thing you have to declare it, saying previously that you are going to pass with that money. There are countries where the limit on cash payments is only when one party is a company, but with individuals there are no limits on cash payments.

Let's suppose you live in France, where there is a cash payment limit and you want to go to Germany where there is no limit to buy a car worth €20k in cash, something very common there because it is a country that uses a lot of cash. Or Bitcoin. You can declare it calmly and nobody will confiscate anything. Another thing is that in a routine control at the "border" (nonexistent for practical purposes today) they do a search and they catch you those €20k in cash or Bitcoin without declaring. Then they will confiscate everything or the excess of €10k, but not if you have declared it before.

[GazetaBitcoin]

I've only seen that in the Border Control program (or something like that is called) at the Canadian border if I remember correctly, but I doubt very much that they do that in European countries.

I certainly hope that such cases are very few and only in just a few countries. This feel so... invasive!

I made some research on what you said and on https://www.canada.ca/en.html I found a page describing what you just said. And it's true, they may actually inspect your phone. And not just that! All your digital devices. According to Canadian government (highlight is mine),

Canada Border Services Agency (CBSA) officers are allowed to examine all goods you have with you when you cross the border. This means that just like your luggage, our officers can examine your cell phones, tablets, laptops and any other digital device you are carrying.

A digital device is defined as any device that is capable of storing digital data, such as:

    cell phones
    smartphones
    computers
    tablets
    removable media
    drives
    cameras
    smartwatches
    any other device capable of storing digital data

However, after stating these horrendous conditions, they try to make people relax, by saying that they don't always do it...

According to some statistics they offer (which may be or be not true), "from November 20, 2017, until June 30, 2022, only 0.012% of all travellers who were processed at the border had their digital devices examined". If this is true then, indeed, the percentage is very small. However, another thing makes situation scary again:

Of these examinations, 37.3% resulted in the detection of a customs or immigration-related contravention. These contraventions ranged from evidence of money laundering, the discovery of prohibited goods that pose a threat to public safety (e.g., child pornography or obscenity), and undervalued or undeclared goods.

Could the hilighlighted part refer to crypto as well...?

There are countries where the limit on cash payments is only when one party is a company, but with individuals there are no limits on cash payments.

Are you sure there is no limit for individuals?

is that in a routine control at the "border" (nonexistent for practical purposes today) they do a search and they catch you those €20k in cash or Bitcoin without declaring. Then they will confiscate everything or the excess of €10k, but not if you have declared it before.

Again, are you 100% sure they confiscate undeclared BTC (or what's over 10.000E) although there is no reference inside the law specifying the term cryptocurrency?

[Poker Player]

There are countries where the limit on cash payments is only when one party is a company, but with individuals there are no limits on cash payments.

Are you sure there is no limit for individuals?

France:

There are no restrictions on cash payments between consumers (such as for cars),

Spain:

Update July 10 2021. The amount of 1000 euros maximum payments in cash is now law...
The restriction is only valid for transactions where at least one professional is involved.

is that in a routine control at the "border" (nonexistent for practical purposes today) they do a search and they catch you those €20k in cash or Bitcoin without declaring. Then they will confiscate everything or the excess of €10k, but not if you have declared it before.

Again, are you 100% sure they confiscate undeclared BTC (or what's over 10.000E) although there is no reference inside the law specifying the term cryptocurrency?

Information from the Netherlands government website.

Of course I am sure. The public authorities cannot seize your assets arbitrarily. If you have declared your funds and they are of legal origin, they cannot seize them, whether they are €11k or €1M. In cash or bitcoin.

Example, you are a businessman with a lot of money that buys €1M in Coinbase fully KYC verified with the profits of your companies. You live in Portugal but want to move to Cluj Napoca in Romania and you tell the authorities that you are going to take that €1M in a HW (or in cash, it doesn't matter). They can't seize it.

Another thing is that you are a worker who has not declared anything, who earns €800 per month and carries €1M in Bitcoin (which maybe you bought without KYC in 2010 for little money and you have HODLed, passing it through mixers for privacy and never declared). There you are going to have a problem.

La revedere.

[LoyceV]

I've only seen that in the Border Control program (or something like that is called) at the Canadian border if I remember correctly, but I doubt very much that they do that in European countries.

I certainly hope that such cases are very and only in just a few countries. This feel so... invasive!

"Border Control" on TV shows only the extremes. There's no fun watching a TV show that shows endless rows of families passing through customs without problems.
Talking about invasive: they can also do full cavity searches. It happens. And yet, it's not my concern while crossing a border.

According to some statistics they offer (which may be or be not true), "from November 20, 2017, until June 30, 2022, only 0.012% of all travellers who were processed at the border had their digital devices examined".

This got me curious, but I couldn't find what percentage of travellers gets to bend over. I know which one I'd prefer though: please just look at my phone!

If this is true then, indeed, the percentage is very small.

It has to be: they don't have time to fully check a lot of devices.

[GazetaBitcoin]

Are you sure there is no limit for individuals?

There are no restrictions on cash payments between consumers (such as for cars),

Perhaps I did not understand well what you meant above. I thought you are saying that there is no limit for the money which someone can carry with him when crossing the border, not about a cash limit for a transaction.

Again, are you 100% sure they confiscate undeclared BTC (or what's over 10.000E) although there is no reference inside the law specifying the term cryptocurrency?

Of course I am sure. The public authorities cannot seize your assets arbitrarily. If you have declared your funds and they are of legal origin, they cannot seize them, whether they are €11k or €1M. In cash or bitcoin.

I understand what you are trying to say. You examples are sound and coherent. But I believe they are true only if you talk about fiat money. Since crypto raises suspicion in the eyes of authorities only by hearing this term, I am afraid (like really afraid) that declaring it may raise even more suspicion, out of no where. What if you don't have (even at home) proofs like KYC for your funds? Maybe you simply received 1000 BTC in the age when it was 1$ or less.Will you declare you are carrying 23M$ in BTC and, if you'll be asked for its provenience you'll say that it was a gift? Do you really think this would work?

La revedere

According to some statistics they offer (which may be or be not true), "from November 20, 2017, until June 30, 2022, only 0.012% of all travellers who were processed at the border had their digital devices examined".

This got me curious, but I couldn't find what percentage of travellers gets to bend over.

Looooool! I am sure that no country shows that kind of statistics

I know which one I'd prefer though: please just look at my phone!

Now you made me curious. Why is that? 

If this is true then, indeed, the percentage is very small.

It has to be: they don't have time to fully check a lot of devices.

I also thought about that: how many employees they need in order to search everybody's phone digital device. I assumed they certainly don't have many enough for this, nor they have time enough for properly checking even the devices they are checking. I guess the action can be seen as a tryout: they may have a predetermined number to check each day -- let's say 10 devices. If they find anything suspicious then hooray to entire department; if not, that's fine too.

[LoyceV]

I know which one I'd prefer though: please just look at my phone!

Now you made me curious. Why is that? 

You get to choose between a full cavity search and having your phone checked, and you're in doubt? What kind of secrets do you have on your phone?

[GazetaBitcoin]

I know which one I'd prefer though: please just look at my phone!

Now you made me curious. Why is that? 

You get to choose between a full cavity search and having your phone checked, and you're in doubt? What kind of secrets do you have on your phone?

When you said above that you prefer to have your phone searched I believed that you mean that, in case you are stopped at the border for a device check, then from all digital devices you carry you'd prefer to have the phone searched -- and this intrigued me Why the phone and not the tablet, for example.

However, what you just said now put things in a totally different perspective Yet even when having to choose between a cavity search or a phone check, based on the skills earned during last years inside the foxhole, a cavity search should not be a problem -- but the opposite: a pleasure

[LoyceV]

When you said above that you prefer to have your phone searched I believed that you mean that, in case you are stopped at the border for a device check, then from all digital devices you carry you'd prefer to have the phone searched -- and this intrigued me Why the phone and not the tablet, for example.

That's easy to answer: I consider my phone to be an untrusted device (same as the tablet), and doesn't have anything that I can't handle losing at any moment. No banking, a separate email account, no passwords, no crypto other than small amounts for the rare IRL payment.

However, what you just said now put things in a totally different perspective Yet even when having to choose between a cavity search or a phone check, based on the skills earned during last years inside the foxhole, a cavity search should not be a problem -- but the opposite: a pleasure

Lol In that case: act suspiciously, refuse all drinks, look around you a lot, and use your most nervous voice and drop your stuff a few times when checked. Enjoy!

[zasad@]

I myself have not encountered this, but my friends warned me about customs checks.
They were asked to unlock their phone and checked which offers were installed.

Seriously? In this case situation is worst than I thought... I did not imagine that they actually check people's phones... I mean I wrote above about this possibility, but I did not actually think it is happening. May I ask in what countries your friend encountered such zealous custom officers?

The customs officers checked which YouTube channels they subscribed to.

This is ridiculous! Why don't they check the porn sites history then?

I think that this is not related to cryptocurrencies, but when crossing the border it is better to remove cryptocurrency wallets from your phone and laptop.

Considering what you just said I think it's a good advice.

Just curious though: do you know if your friends have crypto wallets on their phones? I'm asking as I'm thinking that, maybe, this is what they were looking for. And, in case your friends did not have any wallet they started to check their YouTube history, to not have their superiors saying they did not make random check at least... And, maybe, if they had crypto wallets then maybe they would be looked with more suspicion...? I can't believe we are living such days.

I cross the border with an old phone, and if the inspector asks to see him, I will smile and give him the phone. A laptop is much easier to prepare for moving across the border. If the control is random and the person will not succumb to provocation, then the control will be formal.
You laugh in vain at the expense of pornography, in some countries it is prohibited.
You probably have not come across this, but even after crossing the border at the airport, people in civilian clothes came up to me, showed me a badge, like a policeman, and asked me to show my documents. Some people were detained.
If you have passed customs control, you should not lose your vigilance and get crypto wallets from hiding places.

[darkangel11]

I fly a lot within the EU and I've never been searched. I always have my phone and often carry a laptop. The only thing they do is they make you take it out and turn it on to see if it works and isn't a shell full of explosives or something. Same with the phone, I've never been asked about apps that I have in there, they don't care about that. I could have the hardware wallet along with my keys and they wouldn't ask about it. It looks like a flash drive and those are of course allowed.

I'd never declare my bitcoins simply because I don't want anyone to know that I'm a bitcoiner. I also don't walk around with any bitcoin logos for safety reasons.

Let's think of a situation where they ask me what have in my hardware wallet and I have a million euro on me. I'd simply say that I have no access to the wallet, that it's just a key that unlocks a wallet on my home computer or something like that and I'm carrying with me because it's a part of my key chain or whatever. I don't believe they'd hold it, but if that happened, I'd still have access to it because I have the seed and they wouldn't be able to check the contents without knowing my password. Also they wouldn't have the right to seize it. All they can possibly do is treat it like a suspicious item and not allow me to take it onboard, but I'd be able to get it back and the contents wouldn't be revealed.

From my experience they aren't suspicious of electronic devices, especially ones that are as small and simple as hardware wallets or memory cards. You can store bitcoin on a memory card of your phone or a gopro without having any apps installed there so even if someone powers on the device they won't find anything.

[Poker Player]

Perhaps I did not understand well what you meant above. I thought you are saying that there is no limit for the money which someone can carry with him when crossing the border, not about a cash limit for a transaction.

Well, there really are no borders. There is free movement of people, capital and goods within the EU. If there is no limit to cash payments in some cases, there is no limit to the money you can carry with you if it is of legal origin (even if you are supposed to declare them in some cases).

I understand what you are trying to say. You examples are sound and coherent. But I believe they are true only if you talk about fiat money. Since crypto raises suspicion in the eyes of authorities only by hearing this term, I am afraid (like really afraid) that declaring it may raise even more suspicion, out of no where. What if you don't have (even at home) proofs like KYC for your funds? Maybe you simply received 1000 BTC in the age when it was 1$ or less.Will you declare you are carrying 23M$ in BTC and, if you'll be asked for its provenience you'll say that it was a gift? Do you really think this would work?

No, we have talked about this example several times in this section in different threads, and I always say the same thing: if you carry $23M in Bitcoin as in the example you give, and the police see it (suppose you are careless and have the Ledger Live app without password protection on your laptop, which is not password protected either, and the police officer who understands the issue sees the $23M in the app), at least they will confiscate it and probably detain you preventively while they make further inquiries.

It's all a matter of quantity. Al Capone was convicted of tax evasion, which is the only thing they could prove. He had everything very well tied up except the economic issue: he had much more money than he could legally justify.

Besides, the $23M does not add up. Suppose your annual salary is around the average annual salary in the EU, about €45k. What do you do with $23M unspent? The other thing that also doesn't add up is people not selling as an investment goes up tends 0 as the investment goes up more. If you bought or were gifted 1k Bitcoin when it was worth $1, it's very rare that you didn't sell at $10, even rarer that you didn't sell at $100 etc.

All those things that are unexplained coupled with an exorbitant amount of funds lead the police to preemptively confiscate and investigate you for sure.

I fly a lot within the EU and I've never been searched.

Yes, that is clear. There is free movement of people in the EU, but we are talking for illustrative purposes.

From my experience they aren't suspicious of electronic devices, especially ones that are as small and simple as hardware wallets or memory cards. You can store bitcoin on a memory card of your phone or a gopro without having any apps installed there so even if someone powers on the device they won't find anything.

Yes, the truth is that actually nowadays, you can move around Europe with as much Bitcoin as you want (well, with your keys) that the probability of being searched and found is almost 0, and even closer to 0 if you are a little careful.

[LoyceV]

No, we have talked about this example several times in this section in different threads, and I always say the same thing: if you carry $23M in Bitcoin as in the example you give, and the police see it (suppose you are careless and have the Ledger Live app without password protection on your laptop, which is not password protected either, and the police officer who understands the issue sees the $23M in the app), at least they will confiscate it

It still doesn't make sense. Unlike carrying $23M in cash (about 460 kg in $50 bills), you don't need to physically cross a border to make a $23M payment in Bitcoin. Anyone with bad intentions can make sure there's nothing to find on him while traveling, but law abiding citizens have to worry about their savings when they go on holiday?

probably detain you preventively while they make further inquiries.

You could just as well schedule a transaction to be broadcasted to a different wallet 12 hours later, so if you're in jail they'll see the funds disappear.

[SirJohnVonSlotty]

You need to declare everything that is above the 10k limit, but obviously there's room for human error. 

First example would be cash, yes you could fit in 22x 500 EUR notes in to your jacket and pass through the check up without any issues, but if caught, it's obvious what you're doing, so you'll get in trouble.

Second example would be a Rolex watch, sure you can try to get from one country over to the next one with the latest submariner on your wrist, but if caught, you'll get in trouble again since it's not that hard to spot a submariner.

Third example would be silver, sure you can try to get 15k EUR worth of silver from one country to another disguised in pans (yes it's a thing, people make pans from silver), but you'll get in trouble if they find it out.
 
Your example, bitcoins, is the same thing. If you're having it on your phone in an app, and not like cash in your pocket or a rolex on your wrist, you might get away with it. But if it's on a well-known easy to spot hardware wallet and within your bag that gets scanned - you might get in to trouble. It's not properly regulated and depends on your risk appetite.

[HeRetiK]

Second example would be a Rolex watch, sure you can try to get from one country over to the next one with the latest submariner on your wrist, but if caught, you'll get in trouble again since it's not that hard to spot a submariner.

The required customs declaration discussed in this thread only refers to cash and cash equivalents. A Rolex (or similar luxury product) does not fall under cash equivalents.

I don't think there's any other rules under which you'd have to declare it at all (being an item intended for personal use), though depending on the item more specific restrictions may apply. Unless of course you're wearing multiple Rolex watches, at which point customs will presume that you're importing them and certain taxes apply. But that's still unrelated to the declaration requirements for cash and cash equivalents.

[NeuroticFish]

Besides, the $23M does not add up. Suppose your annual salary is around the average annual salary in the EU, about €45k. What do you do with $23M unspent? The other thing that also doesn't add up is people not selling as an investment goes up tends 0 as the investment goes up more. If you bought or were gifted 1k Bitcoin when it was worth $1, it's very rare that you didn't sell at $10, even rarer that you didn't sell at $100 etc.

There is a possible cases one would have $23M in Bitcoin; just then that person would most probably travel with a private jet though.
I expect a good number of initial investors have spent only small(er) portions at $10, $100, $1000, $10000 and still have some.

I am trying to understand how law works (or should work) in such cases.

I think that's a gray area. Imho it's like with the VISA card. You can have much more than 10k on your VISA card or as deposits in your account and you don't have to declare it.
After all, normally and legally one will most probably sell bitcoins at a CEX or, anyway, with money coming into his bank account.

However, one can easily keep his seed phrase safely and separately and he can avoid surprises until the legislation becomes clearer.

[Poker Player]

It still doesn't make sense. Unlike carrying $23M in cash (about 460 kg in $50 bills), you don't need to physically cross a border to make a $23M payment in Bitcoin.

I don't understand you. I am not talking about that. I was talking about crossing borders with $23M in Bitcoin and said that you could encounter the same potential problems with the same amout in cash, but not that you (or someone) is going to cross the border with that amount in cash to make a payment in Bitcoin. That, indeed, wouldn't make sense.

Law abiding citizens have to worry about their savings when they go on holiday?

Law abiding citizens who carry enormous amount os undeclared funds (it doesn't matter if it is in Bitcoin, cash, gold or whatever), like tens of millions as in the example,  better worry about it. No matter if they are of legal origin.

You could just as well schedule a transaction to be broadcasted to a different wallet 12 hours later, so if you're in jail they'll see the funds disappear.

Thank you for this idea. Couldn't we come up with a variation? Let's imagine you have to go to a country outside the EU and they are going to give you trouble if they find you any amount of Bitcoin. Couldn't you leave a transaction programmed from a wallet at home, and take an empty HW with you? For example.

[LoyceV]

It still doesn't make sense. Unlike carrying $23M in cash (about 460 kg in $50 bills), you don't need to physically cross a border to make a $23M payment in Bitcoin.

I don't understand you. I am not talking about that. I was talking about crossing borders with $23M in Bitcoin and said that you could encounter the same potential problems with the same amout in cash, but not that you (or someone) is going to cross the border with that amount in cash to make a payment in Bitcoin. That, indeed, wouldn't make sense.

Let's try a different approach: if you own $23M in Bitcoin, you can't prove you don't have have it with you! So if they find it because you have a physical wallet with you, you could just as well have hidden it. You also may not have any plans to use it, you're just on vacation and don't want to risk leaving your hardware wallet unattended at home. Or, the alternative, you have 12 seed words in your memory and nobody can find anything on you. So the physical wallet with $23M they find is only a piece of evidence, but doesn't change anything else. What if you have one of those bought wallet.dat files that pretends to hold 1000 Bitcoin? You don't know the password, and it doesn't even exist because the wallet is fake, but will it still get you in trouble?

Law abiding citizens who carry enormous amount os undeclared funds (it doesn't matter if it is in Bitcoin, cash, gold or whatever), like tens of millions as in the example,  better worry about it. No matter if they are of legal origin.

The same law abiding citizen can have access to a bank account holding $23M.

Let's imagine you have to go to a country outside the EU and they are going to give you trouble if they find you any amount of Bitcoin. Couldn't you leave a transaction programmed from a wallet at home, and take an empty HW with you? For example.

That's very easy: create a signed raw transaction, and schedule it to broadcast at a certain time. Use locktime to make sure it can't be broadcasted earlier. Bitcoin Core and Electrum allow command line access, so a simple cronjob will do. You can even bring the raw transaction, print it, or send it to your email. Alternatively, you can hide your funds slightly beyond your wallet's address gap limit. It's so easy to hide funds, criminals must be really stupid to get caught while crossing a border. And that brings me back to the law-abiding citizens (who didn't think it through), who can be a "victim" to this while crossing borders.

[pixie85]

Your example, bitcoins, is the same thing. If you're having it on your phone in an app, and not like cash in your pocket or a rolex on your wrist, you might get away with it. But if it's on a well-known easy to spot hardware wallet and within your bag that gets scanned - you might get in to trouble. It's not properly regulated and depends on your risk appetite.

I'd argue that it isn't the same. A wallet is a container. It can be empty, or carry $1000, or $10 million. Many hardware wallets don't display the amount that they contain. You have to connect it to an app and unlock it to see the contents.

The TSA don't have the means and time to check the contents of a wallet. I don't see a way you could get in trouble over a hardware wallet.

What about a metal hardware wallet that contains your private key or seed words? Do you think that when they see a metal piece with some random letters and numbers they're going to take it from you because you could be smuggling money on it?

You can hide bitcoin in every electronic device including drones, action cameras, phones, music players, portable speakers... I have an infrared camera that can store images so it can also store a private key. It's impossible to check all of these at the airport.