Should BTC amounts greater than 10.000E be declared when leaving the country?

[GazetaBitcoin]

You probably have not come across this, but even after crossing the border at the airport, people in civilian clothes came up to me, showed me a badge, like a policeman, and asked me to show my documents. Some people were detained.

Actually, that happened to me once, when I was returning from Crete. I had to take 3 planes from there (Crete - Thessaloniki; Thessaloniki - Athens; Athens - Bucharest). When I reached Athens, just after I got off the plane, some 3 weird-looking-bearded-small guys came to me and said some gibberish. I did not understand anything and, at first, I ignored them, thinking they are beggars  (Yes, seriously!) But they came after me. Seeing they insist I thought they need some assistance and I told myself to hear them out. I asked 3 times the guy to repeat himself until I understood what he was saying: "Police airport, follow us please"". His English was so poor it was very hard to understand.

Seeing I finally understood who they are, he also showed me his badge and I followed him, being scared I may lose my next plane, which was only 40 minutes later. I kept asking what's the problem but they did not say anything until I reached unto a small room and they started checking all my luggage, while asking me drug-related questions: if I like drugs / when is last time I smoked pot / if I knew that in Crete you can find best hash etc. When he asked last question I wanted to say "Sadly, I did not know that when I arrived there but now that you say it I feel like going back" =)))

He kept inspecting my suitcases while he talked, checking for hidden parts. He also checked a bag with dirty socks, lol. In the end he also brought a dog to smell everything.

And, after all this procedure ended, they told me I looked suspicious because I was returning home with 3 planes, instead of 1 or 2 (facepalm). And I was almost losing my plane because of them!

You could just as well schedule a transaction to be broadcasted to a different wallet 12 hours later, so if you're in jail they'll see the funds disappear.

Lol! That's funny yet great idea

However, one can easily keep his seed phrase safely and separately and he can avoid surprises until the legislation becomes clearer.

Do you think such ambiguous legislation will be updated soon...?

[1715291115]

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[1715291115]

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[NeuroticFish]

at first, I ignored them, thinking they are beggars  (Yes, seriously!) But they came after me. Seeing they insist I thought they need some assistance and I told myself to hear them out. I asked 3 times the guy to repeat himself until I understood what he was saying: "Police airport, follow us please""

O...my.. god.... LOL!!!!

And, after all this procedure ended, they told me I looked suspicious because I was returning home with 3 planes, instead of 1 or 2 (facepalm). And I was almost losing my plane because of them!

Actually I've seen this logic (at Discovery Channel or similar) on Airport Security related shows and the logic is that if you change too many planes or you stay only a day at a vacation place you're automatically suspicious (because the detour/extra stops may mean you meet some dealers).

However, one can easily keep his seed phrase safely and separately and he can avoid surprises until the legislation becomes clearer.

Do you think such ambiguous legislation will be updated soon...?

Well, "soon" is a relative term. But in 10-15 years we should have it.  Maybe earlier, who knows?

[stompix]

Perhaps I did not understand well what you meant above. I thought you are saying that there is no limit for the money which someone can carry with him when crossing the border, not about a cash limit for a transaction.

Well, there really are no borders. There is free movement of people, capital and goods within the EU. If there is no limit to cash payments in some cases, there is no limit to the money you can carry with you if it is of legal origin (even if you are supposed to declare them in some cases).

That's the thing with different cases, the completely free movement without control is only for the Schengen area Bulgaria, Romania, and Cyprus still have full border control, and passing from Romania to Hungary in theory should be just like entering Italy from Tunisia, the fact the controls are more relaxed for EU citizens doesn't really matter, and since OP is from Romania, things are different than for the rest of us. He will have to go through those controls, thus the risks of running into an imbecile that wants to make a quota of seized...something.

As for the Bitcoin issue, it's pretty simple and once they will take their time to adopt clear laws specifically for it it will most likely be required to declare it just as cash and gold, the logic is pretty simple (for them)
- you enter with cash, gold, bitcoins, nobody can track where you have spent it and whom you have given it to
- you enter with 1 million on a debit card, it still can be tracked, ATM, resort hotel, shop, casino it's there

That's all they care about, they will not listen to logical things like the fact that you could send those coins while you're over the Atlantic ocean, toss your phone in the Mediterranean, and still those coins would get into the country without them being able to stop, it's far easier to make other do something.

Another thing is that in a routine control at the "border" (nonexistent for practical purposes today) they do a search and they catch you those €20k in cash or Bitcoin without declaring. Then they will confiscate everything or the excess of €10k, but not if you have declared it before.

Doesn't work like that, all the money is seized in that situation, but again, seized and not confiscated since confiscation is possible in the EU only with a final decision on individual cases, so even if the border guards do seize your cash you still have a chance to get them back. If the court decides you haven't provided enough evidence of ..a lot of things, lol, like source, the fact that you did this without ulterior motive and so on, then they get confiscated and are gone for good.

That being said I've traveled before 2007 a few times with sums over that amount into Germany and Austria, and they didn't give a damn, never bothered to actually check the amount, signed the papers and get out of here already!

[dansus021]

I dont have knowledge about this but i don't think they will check your e-wallet from your phone. I mean if do they check you can carry opendime fill it with bitcoin and says that is regular USB thumbdrive

or deposit your money or btc to a centralized exchange and withdraw it when you arrive in destination country but of course you need a liquid exchange like binance

[zasad@]

You probably have not come across this, but even after crossing the border at the airport, people in civilian clothes came up to me, showed me a badge, like a policeman, and asked me to show my documents. Some people were detained.

Actually, that happened to me once, when I was returning from Crete. I had to take 3 planes from there (Crete - Thessaloniki; Thessaloniki - Athens; Athens - Bucharest). When I reached Athens, just after I got off the plane, some 3 weird-looking-bearded-small guys came to me and said some gibberish. I did not understand anything and, at first, I ignored them, thinking they are beggars   (Yes, seriously!) But they came after me. Seeing they insist I thought they need some assistance and I told myself to hear them out. I asked 3 times the guy to repeat himself until I understood what he was saying: "Police airport, follow us please"". His English was so poor it was very hard to understand.

Seeing I finally understood who they are, he also showed me his badge and I followed him, being scared I may lose my next plane, which was only 40 minutes later. I kept asking what's the problem but they did not say anything until I reached unto a small room and they started checking all my luggage, while asking me drug-related questions: if I like drugs / when is last time I smoked pot / if I knew that in Crete you can find best hash etc. When he asked last question I wanted to say "Sadly, I did not know that when I arrived there but now that you say it I feel like going back" =)))

He kept inspecting my suitcases while he talked, checking for hidden parts. He also checked a bag with dirty socks, lol. In the end he also brought a dog to smell everything.

And, after all this procedure ended, they told me I looked suspicious because I was returning home with 3 planes, instead of 1 or 2 (facepalm). And I was almost losing my plane because of them!

Do you think such ambiguous legislation will be updated soon...?

I had a similar situation in one of the eastern countries where I flew from Turkey. But ended up checking the documents. There are a lot of up-to-date scanners at the Istanbul airport, and it is impossible to carry prohibited items there. The customs officers were not interested in a phone or a laptop, but now they can check any equipment.

But the logic of the customs officers from Athens surprises me. In Russia, customs officers will never tell you why you were detained for checking documents and things. Customs officers have such a right. Instead of apologizing for the inconvenience, they told you that you are to blame, because you are flying on 3 planes
I always thought the more airports I visit, the greater the risk of being checked.

[GazetaBitcoin]

That's all they care about, they will not listen to logical things like the fact that you could send those coins while you're over the Atlantic ocean, toss your phone in the Mediterranean, and still those coins would get into the country without them being able to stop, it's far easier to make other do something.

Lol! It's a pity, but I think you are right here. I also said something similar in an earlier post, but there I was referring to the (im)possibility of trying to reason with custom officers about the bitcoins, which are actually held on blockchain, not by you and you can move them using private keys.

But the logic of the customs officers from Athens surprises me. In Russia, customs officers will never tell you why you were detained for checking documents and things. Customs officers have such a right.

Then, compared with your experience, I guess I should say that I was lucky Although they made me almost lose my next flight, they made me feel like a criminal for no valid reason and they scared the shit out of me when they brought those doge out of nowhere (for a few seconds I thought they'll threaten me with the dogs for saying what they wanted to hear -- or, at least, to try to intimidate me using the dogs). I am not sure, but I think they were two dogs, not just one. And they were ferocious-looking dobermans.

Instead of apologizing for the inconvenience, they told you that you are to blame, because you are flying on 3 planes

Seems legit /s 

or deposit your money or btc to a centralized exchange and withdraw it when you arrive in destination country but of course you need a liquid exchange like binance

Lol, what? Use a centralized exchange?

Sorry for asking that, but you are an old user... you still don't know to what dangers you expose yourself by using a centralized exchange?

[dansus021]

Lol, what? Use a centralized exchange?

Sorry for asking that, but you are an old user... you still don't know to what dangers you expose yourself by using a centralized exchange?

I know centralized exchange is bad since ftx case but I do believe you are using Cex for withdraw your money right, besides that this is temporary you across border and when u arrive withdraw the money 

or just back to my first option using opendime

[NeuroticFish]

or deposit your money or btc to a centralized exchange and withdraw it when you arrive in destination country but of course you need a liquid exchange like binance

I think that even if I don't take into account the CEX-KYC problems (since Gazeta already did), depositing such big amounts of money into others' pockets "just in case" is by far the worse idea.
The point here was about avoiding problems, not getting into bigger ones.
Bitcoin is about being your own bank. Since you can easily store/hide your wallet's seed in your luggage (not all in the same place!), why use a CEX?!!?

[NotATether]

What about a metal hardware wallet that contains your private key or seed words? Do you think that when they see a metal piece with some random letters and numbers they're going to take it from you because you could be smuggling money on it?

That is a bad idea to execute for obvious reasons because if the airport security don't confiscate it, some curious onlooker could still photocopy it and run away (and take your cash later).

You can hide bitcoin in every electronic device including drones, action cameras, phones, music players, portable speakers... I have an infrared camera that can store images so it can also store a private key. It's impossible to check all of these at the airport.

That is not a particularly good idea and it is not something you want to be explaining in front of court if you are caught doing that.

[Volgastallion]

I really dont know in specific the laws of al the EU countries but.... i think we have like in all the earth two types of law, the Roman law based (mayority of latin countries) and the common law or anglosaxon based.

I said this because im not sure how things works in the other system.

Well for me if you have also a really good lawyer you dont have to have mayor problems because, where are the bitcoins? In your app or in where the app its based? are you really travel with them or are you only moving yourself and after you reach them from another destination?. And one more WHERE are the BTC really? in the network, in the blockchain.... so nowhere, if the law its not specific they cant touch you (yes they always touch you ).

Lets me take an example from the traditional world, if i have a credit/debit card with 50000 euros, i dont have to say "o look i have in the account linked to this card X ammount of money" i travel and i spend the money. I know you are gonna say, "yes , but the funds never moves from the origin country or account" and yes, but the BTC also, doesnt move.

I know its a little bit tricky to understand or maybe im not good expresing this and my grammar in english its no so good, but i think you can catch the point.

And one last thing, the mayority of countries look over the bags or whatever but in terms of money they only catch some bigs or absurd movements , because after all they only waits until you buy a big thing (house car etc) and in that moment they come and say "ohh look , from where its the money?" and in economical delits the charge of the proof its inverted, you are not innocent you have to prove you are innocent, and in that moment its when you have to show from where the money came.

[GazetaBitcoin]

That is not a particularly good idea and it is not something you want to be explaining in front of court if you are caught doing that.

I also share this thought. In my opinion, being caught with an undeclared wallet (containing more than 10.000E in BTC) hidden on the storage of a drone / action camera / music player / portable speaker seems way more suspicious than simply having the wallet on your phone. If custom officers are targeted for amounts greater than 10.000E there may be nothing to do; yet hiding the wallet in such unusual place may trigger them to believe the coins may be part of an illegal scheme or who knows...

I know centralized exchange is bad since ftx case but I do believe you are using Cex for withdraw your money right, besides that this is temporary you across border and when u arrive withdraw the money  

I would certainly never use a centralized exchange. And you said a part of the risks associated with them -- but there are many other risks presented by such exchanges:

- first of all, the rule "not your keys not your coins" is more than real: a Court decision from 2020 practically says that
- centralized exchanges may be hacked and you lose your money
- centralized exchanges may seize your account at any time and you lose your money
- centralized exchanges may also lose your personal information due to hackers and this puts your life in jeopardy, as hackers sell your private data on dark web and you never know what burglar may show up at your door
- centralized exchanges may perform an exit scam and you lose your money
- centralized exchanges offer your personal information to authorities
- centralized exchanges may even sell your personal information, as it happened in Coinbase's case
- last, but not least, centralized exchanges imply KYC and this topic of 1miau will explain even better the risks associated with KYC: Why KYC is extremely dangerous – and useless.

If all these were not enough for never using a CEx ever again, then maybe this topic of VB1001 may help on this matter: Hacked Exchanges since 2011.

[dansus021]

I'm sorry @GazetaBitcoin  you were right and I was wrong. and personally, I have never had 10.000 E and not relate to me. I hope you find the solution and Good Luck with your trip