On Ordinals: Where do you stand?

[badbot]

Im really concerned about child pornography, lets say some ones daughter being raped and murdered ending up on Bitcoin. Or racism or something that would make a nation say absolutely no to Bitcoin. Take the story of the Tank man on Tiananmen in China, Gov secrets. That will not be accepted when they see that this network will spread truth.
While it can be used for both good and evil i don't think its a fight that Bitcoin should get into. Having Gov's fighting Bitcoin unnecessarily and shoveling shit on its name is not helping Bitcoin in anyway.
Bitcoin should be good at one thing and one thing only. Truth can be spread other ways or the same way but not on Bitcoin.
I hope i have understood Ordinals wrong and this is not possible but i don't see how it wouldn't be.
Nobody seams to be talking about it or as soon as i mention it. Its met with silence.

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[nutildah]

Nobody seams to be talking about it or as soon as i mention it. Its met with silence.

This is your first post on the forum so its therefore the first time you've mentioned it, here anyway... and the last 2-3 pages of this thread have been all about this subject.

Much like when people upload shitty material to the darknet, you can't stop them, you can only hope they will be moderated... unless you want the government to intervene and shut down some servers.

Absolute freedom is a dual-edged sword.

[ABCbits]

... if you have some info about someone who is trying to insert such data in the blockchain (i.e. IP adresses) then you should be safe.

imagine some fool uploading illegal porno to ordinals that doesn't use a fake ip. 

But miner wouldn't know personal information of that fool unless he/she contact miners directly (e.g. send email to miner from gmail). In most cases, miner only can obtain IP address of node which re-broadcast that transaction.

Im really concerned about child pornography, lets say some ones daughter being raped and murdered ending up on Bitcoin. Or racism or something that would make a nation say absolutely no to Bitcoin. Take the story of the Tank man on Tiananmen in China, Gov secrets. That will not be accepted when they see that this network will spread truth.

Unfortunately all of the already happen far before Ordinal exist. See these article,
https://www.newsweek.com/bitcoins-blockchain-contains-child-abuse-images-dark-web-links-and-wikileaks-857335
https://www.righto.com/2014/02/ascii-bernanke-wikileaks-photographs.html#ref14

Bitcoin should be good at one thing and one thing only.

I agree. But on technical level it's impossible to ensure Bitcoin only can be used as currency/payment method while remain decentralized/permissionless.

[badbot]

Nobody seams to be talking about it or as soon as i mention it. Its met with silence.

This is your first post on the forum so its therefore the first time you've mentioned it, here anyway... and the last 2-3 pages of this thread have been all about this subject.

Much like when people upload shitty material to the darknet, you can't stop them, you can only hope they will be moderated... unless you want the government to intervene and shut down some servers.

Absolute freedom is a dual-edged sword.

Yeah i dived right into a new pool here from Twitter and Reddit where people are cheering over this as the next great thing in the universe. And it seams mostly fueled by hope of selling overpriced jpg's to other fools who hope to do the same thing. And nobody seams to be thinking any further than that.

"Absolute freedom is a dual-edged sword." Add enough edges and you got a steel bar instead of a sword.

This is not necessary and its not about freedom, Its not helping adoption, It may be a giant wall towards adoption and people like Warren will have an absolute field day if she finds out about something compromising like what i was suggesting. You cant pretend like it doesn't matter, the average Joe is easily talked into another narrative.
I don't care about pumps or going to $100k I just want it to work and work smoothly without any of the spam/junk

[Artemis3]

Maybe you're right and it isn't illegal if it's a "young woman". I've also no intention to investigate that issue further.

My point was going more into another direction: We can't rely on the hope that nobody would ever insert illegal data in the blockchain. Because as I wrote there are ways to do this without Taproot or Ordinals. And someone who wants to destroy Bitcoin could use whatever method, even those old methods from 2013 requiring fake addresses and a lot of block space.

I'm also sure that one who really wanted to do it could even insert whatever data in a blockchain without any scripting, like Monero (that's also an answer to @n0nce). One simply would use a combination of addresses, transactions and amounts which would encode the picture, text or whatever, and then build a protocol around it. Would consume lots of block space as it's very inefficient, but it remains possible. If the protocol prevents you from see the data directly like they appear on-chain, you would have to use a vanitygen-style trial-and-error approach which would be more expensive, but always possible.

That's why I cited Arvind Narayanan. The crucial word is "intent". If you are using Bitcoin for financial things, not decoding illegal data/files, and (as a miner) reporting to the authorities if you have some info about someone who is trying to insert such data in the blockchain (i.e. IP adresses) then you should be safe.

(And no, I'm not endorsing Ordinals on BTC, but I stay with the stance that it's not as problematic as some see it.)

Like i said the point is to make it more expensive/annoying for spam than genuine transactions, nobody expects perfection. People don't have time to be inspecting spam and determine its "legality", that's all beyond the point. There is no good or bad spam, its spam when its not actual transactions; make it hard and expensive for them.

Rule relaxing seems to have made it easier for spammers, as we have seen here, and this should be addressed somehow. It IS a problem.

In the meantime, the transaction i started the 11th, is still waiting in line while Ordinals spam keeps cutting the line...

[franky1]

nutildah..
we all know you have done these crappy memes yourself.
and you are now trying your damned hardest to promote them and make the popular and not want them to stop

we get it your one of caseys gang or casey himself

lol & no to all of this. you are laughably unhinged.

you say no to all of these
ok:
so lets see some examples of your promoting and involvement in the meme spam

One of the best ones yet
..
Its the first of a series called Rare Ordinals, was tokenized by its creator on Counterparty.
..
You can buy a 1 sat fraction of ORDINALPEPE for 1 sat. A fair deal if you ask me.
..
20 purchases so far in the last 24 hours, not too bad. I was 2 of them  

Enjoy!  

This is by far the most interesting thing happening in Bitcoin at the moment,

thats just two posts.. i seen far more

just look at the amount of posts where you have memes in them, even your avatar is a meme
so if you cant recognise that YOU are promoting memes in bitcoin. its you thats unhinged

bitcoins ethos is consensus not permissionless
consent of the utxo owner by their signature proving consent to move funds
consent of the network that data complies with rules the majority of network consent to agree to

softening those rules softening the need of consent and verification is BAD for bitcoin
as for legality (much like drugs)
possession can be fought off with the right lawyer to express that it was not your fault(motive/intent) to have data on your computer.. emphasis on the need a good lawyer

distributing is a bigger crime. thus mining pools have a higher risk on their heads.
learn common sense

stop trying to even suggest the thought that people should be free and un-consequentially able to put porn onto the blockchain

you selfish man who doesnt care about bitcoins security or integrity, as long as you can make money out of other people. even if it causes others to be at a loss or harm due to your self-greed mindset

[badbot]

So i am not 100 on how this all works, but do i also have to be watching out for what's on Sats that i receive?
As i have understood it, had it explained to me: An Ordinal is all extra data on each Sat?

[nutildah]

This is not necessary and its not about freedom,

Its absolutely about freedom, the freedom to transact, which is one of the things bitcoin is supposed to be all about.

Its not helping adoption,

On the contrary, its encouraged some people to run full nodes & several more to care about bitcoin for the first time.

I don't care about pumps or going to $100k I just want it to work and work smoothly without any of the spam/junk

This is fair but one man's spam is another man's steak. So far its proved to be but a minor inconvenience, with the mempool slightly busier than normal. Whether it will become a long-lasting problem remains to be seen.

https://ycharts.com/indicators/bitcoin_average_transaction_fee
https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/bitcoin-size.html#1y
https://mempool.observer/

I don't own a single ordinal. I own a tiny amount of a fractionalized representation of an ordinal on Counterparty. I couldn't care less less whether people buy them or not. Its just entertaining to watch people like you get their panties in a bunch over it instead of acknowledge you are powerless to actually do anything about it.

Pretty much everything you said is just you doing what you normally do which is to change the argument instead of admit you are wrong. Its not worth addressing. Though the moral reprimand is a nice touch. Cheers.

[franky1]

So i am not 100 on how this all works, but do i also have to be watching out for what's on Sats that i receive?
As i have understood it, had it explained to me: An Ordinal is all extra data on each Sat?

no
the whole scheme is
that a guy is ranking sats.. (one scheme)
  - eg the first spend of a bitcoin coinbase reward is ranked higher then the [whatever]th spend for that coinreward split

and secondly/separately..(another scheme) if you put a meme into the witness(signature) area of a tx, where that said tx also contains a rare sat (EG "the first sat spent of a block reward(his ranking scheme)).. then that meme is super super rare

his comments about "put into first sat"
is him defining a tx that spends the first sat of a block reward. it has nothing to do with putting data into the 'output value field' of a tx

its a tx containing both a rare sat(in the output value area).. and a meme(in the signature area) of the same tx is deemed then super rare

[pooya87]

Yeah i dived right into a new pool here from Twitter and Reddit where people are cheering over this as the next great thing in the universe. And it seams mostly fueled by hope of selling overpriced jpg's to other fools who hope to do the same thing. And nobody seams to be thinking any further than that.

Exactly. But this has been a plague that has infected the cryptocurrency scene mainly from 2017 when the ICO scams started becoming very popular and we had a mania for a while. Ever since then a certain part of the community is convinced that creating useless tokens is a real "utility" that helps adoption!

So i am not 100 on how this all works, but do i also have to be watching out for what's on Sats that i receive?
As i have understood it, had it explained to me: An Ordinal is all extra data on each Sat?

I tried to simplify it here, maybe that helps.
In short there is nothing attached to the "satoshis" you receive, they are inside the witness of the transaction the sender creates and shouldn't concern you in any way. It also has nothing to do with the amount (or satoshis) regardless of what the advertisers say (eg. "rare and exotic sats"), it is just an arbitrary data pushed to the witness stack.

[bittraffic]

Yeah i dived right into a new pool here from Twitter and Reddit where people are cheering over this as the next great thing in the universe. And it seams mostly fueled by hope of selling overpriced jpg's to other fools who hope to do the same thing. And nobody seams to be thinking any further than that.

Exactly. But this has been a plague that has infected the cryptocurrency scene mainly from 2017 when the ICO scams started becoming very popular and we had a mania for a while. Ever since then a certain part of the community is convinced that creating useless tokens is a real "utility" that helps adoption!

So i am not 100 on how this all works, but do i also have to be watching out for what's on Sats that i receive?
As i have understood it, had it explained to me: An Ordinal is all extra data on each Sat?

I tried to simplify it here, maybe that helps.
In short there is nothing attached to the "satoshis" you receive, they are inside the witness of the transaction the sender creates and shouldn't concern you in any way. It also has nothing to do with the amount (or satoshis) regardless of what the advertisers say (eg. "rare and exotic sats"), it is just an arbitrary data pushed to the witness stack.

By sender, you mean the guys running Bitcoin nodes. From what I've read they are the ones who can only create ordinals?

Community is divided I guess about this Ordinals. While the other half find Ordinals as another use case the other half I guess find Ordinals unnecessary as it increases network fees and is a waste of block space.

[pooya87]

By sender, you mean the guys running Bitcoin nodes. From what I've read they are the ones who can only create ordinals?

Ordinals is a fancy word for bitcoin transactions that contain garbage in them. Anybody can create a transaction and you don't need to run a full node to create or broadcast them to the network.

[d5000]

that's what you hope might be the case but that's something courts have to decide. not bitcoin users or community. it all depends how popular ordinals gets. the more popular it gets then the more attention it might attract from lawmakers.

Well, in 2018 there was some media buzz about this. And even if the picture doesn't count, the child pornography links were already illegal in most jurisdictions. So I'm sure some lawmakers are already aware of that.

There are however situations which are similar and where there are court decisions, mainly about ISPs. There was also a similar discussion about Freenet and other decentralized P2P networks where users store encrypted unknown data from others on their computers. And it's very different from a torrent, where the torrent seeder has the intent to distribute an illegal file.

You're of course right that miners will "catch" very few illegal stuff uploaders. But if someone is that fool, they'd be better to report it.

[franky1]

junk memes in a tx can be aded to a block (random block index location) by anyone just wanting there transaction in a block. but pools still have to and should be validating and verifying content.

but the ordinals(spcial junk memes). is where junk memes are put into rare tx spending (recent block rewards spends (usually tx index 0 of a block reward spend). meaning a pool has decided to include it in a tx of their reward spending as thats what caseys ranking system is about
these types of extra special junk memes are called the ordinal inscriptions..

so a ordinal inscription (casey ranked junk meme)  as oppose to normal junk meme is more related to a special handling by a mining pool choosing to add such junk

this does make the mining pool more legally liable to distributing illegal pictures if thats what one of these ordinals is

so pools need to truly be careful what crap they throw into their block templates when collating transactions

to all the idiots that think they can plead ignorant to the law and pleas ignorant to certain things will mean that mining pools can get away with it..
ignorance is not a defence

and to all those that think it is. you will only find that out, after caught, arrested, charged, given a hearing date, pleading innocent and then going to trial where at trial is the only real place you can scram your ignorance as a defence.. which is about 6-12 months too late when your life has been uprooted by authorities getting involved in your life.

so try and learn a few laws
and stop trying to pretend mining pools can get away with things just becasue ignorant user says so
its better for mining pools to be on the watch for preventing doing things that put themselves at risk, rather than listen to idiots telling mining pools "it dont matter, so go ahead commit a crime" the idiot ignorant army of users wont pay the mining pool legal bills and bail while you try to fight it

[badbot]

So Why do we need this? Its creating more division, junk, porn, illegal materials and possibly weaknesses well?... Say sending images or something else becomes very popular and actual Bitcoin transactions just ends up in the background and never gets processed, impossible?
Give me one good clear advantage of allowing this please? What's wrong with keeping this on the shitcoins? Why does it have to be on Bitcoin?
I hope for a fork and things like this is considered spam

[DooMAD]

So Why do we need this?  Its creating more division

It's not that we "need" it.  It's that someone found an exploit and people are using it to do something that wasn't anticipated.  So naturally people are now asking whether it's right to change the protocol to make that more difficult for them.  It sounds like you've already made your mind up, but consider taking a moment to ponder the consequences.  Where do we draw the line between freedom and abuse?  It's a really big question and the answer may not be as simple as you might think.

Give me one good clear advantage of allowing this please? What's wrong with keeping this on the shitcoins? Why does it have to be on Bitcoin?

I'd rather see it on shitcoins too.  But my concern is that the response needs to be considered carefully.  If we set a precedent that the protocol needs to change every time someone makes an emotional response to something they personally disapprove of, where does it end?  What if you happen to be using Bitcoin for something that I might personally disapprove of?  Do I then get to argue that we should change the protocol to stop you doing what you want to do? 

[franky1]

current nodes allow upto 3.99mb of witness bloat when using a certain opcode

hardening consensus where that certain opcode is only "one signature length" like that tx formats promise was
does not cause a fork (altcoin).

simply saying after block 7XX,XXX consensus is hardened for that opcode to be one signature length is still accepted by old nodes that allow the <3.99mb weight thing. because a 1signature length is also <3.99mb so no harm or deviation of the exploited rules
its just a tightening of the rules

where by blocks containing transactions that go above the tightening. get rejected
all it requires** in this is the mining pools and some economic nodes to add utility incentive pressure for the mining pools([masf+nya style]), coming to consensus of doing the tightening of consensus rules at the certain blockheight

there are other ways to harden consensus again.
**but we might aswell use the method of a trick that have been done before which certain people adored
its funny how those same people are now saying "lets not change things" when they adored changing things done by this method
so we might aswell use their prefered tricks, thus they cant object

[Artemis3]

They reported making 19 BTC from selling this spam. So they have both incentive and means to push whatever tx fee price they see fit.

In the meantime, my actual transaction destined to pay bills and food, is still waiting since the 11th. Well there are still days left before the end of the month. But this is clearly showing what it is to come.

The next time a real fee increase surges, from some exchange moving stuff around, + these wealthy spammers...

[larry_vw_1955]

this does make the mining pool more legally liable to distributing illegal pictures if thats what one of these ordinals is

so pools need to truly be careful what crap they throw into their block templates when collating transactions

how? how do they do that franky? lets hear your protocol for how they do that.

In the meantime, my actual transaction destined to pay bills and food, is still waiting since the 11th. Well there are still days left before the end of the month. But this is clearly showing what it is to come.

sounds like you might have to bump up the fee because i don't see this ordinals activity slowing down any time soon. if anything, more people are going to be releasing 10,000 item collections...and then you still have the mom and pop people like the person that can't stop uploading the bitcoin logo.

they should somehow make it so that people submitting an ordinals transactions have to pay the fee for someone else's normal transaction. that would get you taken care of, buddy.   

[franky1]

this does make the mining pool more legally liable to distributing illegal pictures if thats what one of these ordinals is

so pools need to truly be careful what crap they throw into their block templates when collating transactions

how? how do they do that franky? lets hear your protocol for how they do that.

actually having code that actually verifies the data it handles.. not this soft crap that has been in play for several years that allowed crap in without majority if nodes needing to update to be ready to verify everything

its what the whole point of consensus was 2009-2016
my previous posts in this topic have given out some idea's
if i go too into detail of such idea's i get the preacher brigade crying that i must be some totalitarian by making it sound too much like a proposal and too specific of detail.

but the idea is there, if you care to read it.

EG if a op code meant to suggest and promise that its witness will only be a 1 signature length that validates against the tx data.. then its allowed. if its just random crap unrelated to the transactions purpose of the payment. then its junk and should be rejected