Withdrawing Bitcoin off the radar

[BlackHatCoiner]

Hello, Ultegra134. We live in the same country. Could you please elaborate on why you'd get taxed by 24% (of the profit, I suppose)? As far as I'm concerned, there is no official tax framework of cryptocurrencies in Greece. Therefore, whether reporting 24% of the profit or not, it's still in the judgement of the tax collector.

I recommend you create a topic in the Greek board.

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[michellee]

You can try to find a local bitcoin seller in the same city as you and contact him if you need his help selling bitcoins. I think there must be someone who can help you to send fiat money to you after you send your BTC to him. But you really have to know who the person is and where he lives so you don't get scammed. Maybe you can find people who can act as third parties who will help send money to you through social media or others so you don't have to use any exchange. It's just you and him. Even though it may be difficult to find at this time, you should still try it, especially if you are in an urgent situation requiring fiat money.

[Ultegra134]

@Ultegra134, what you want is possible (for now) in a country that you might want to visit for touristic reasons There are physical exchange offices that do not require KYC up to a certain amount, which was 2000 EUR last year, and I think they have now reduced that amount to 1000 EUR. The fee in such exchange offices is around 5%, which is not small, but still less than what you would have to pay in your country.

For more details, you can always contact me via PM and I can give you more detailed instructions.

I knew I had to visit you but didn't get the chance to do it this year either! Sucks.

Hello, Ultegra134. We live in the same country. Could you please elaborate on why you'd get taxed by 24% (of the profit, I suppose)? As far as I'm concerned, there is no official tax framework of cryptocurrencies in Greece. Therefore, whether reporting 24% of the profit or not, it's still in the judgement of the tax collector.

I recommend you create a topic in the Greek board.

You're actually correct; it's 15% tax on declared profits. However, I haven't bought Bitcoin myself; I've started accumulating from scratch; wouldn't the whole amount get taxed since it's basically a source of income? That's why I thought it'd be 24%. While there isn't an official tax framework for cryptocurrencies yet, withdrawing a few thousand euros to my bank account wouldn't look too good, which is my main concern.

[Picaflor]

It depends on what you need it for.

For small purchases on Amazon etc., you can buy gift cards and vouchers. Or just stay below your CGT threshold.

If you need to sell a large amount, e.g. to buy a house, selling BTC for a truckload of suitcases filled with cash may be tricky. And even if you do, the taxman may one day ask you where you got the money from to buy the house with.

In some countries there is no CGT on crypto gains. In Europe, I reckon Portugal is one of those. If you want to cash out a large amount, obtaining a tax residency in such a country, then selling your BTC for euros (or real estate) might be an attractive option, but it's better to consult a tax advisor to make sure everything is above board.

[NeuroticFish]

Or just stay below your CGT threshold.

If you need to sell a large amount, e.g. to buy a house

In my country the threshold is 40 EUR/transaction for a total of 120 EUR/year.
Between this tiny amount and the amounts needed to buy a house there are plenty of use cases for wanting to sell Bitcoin for fiat without KYC.

I've started accumulating from scratch; wouldn't the whole amount get taxed since it's basically a source of income? That's why I thought it'd be 24%.

You could have been mining those coins long ago. Or you could have been mining altcoins with your computer and sell for bitcoin.
It's not mandatory you've actually worked for them, especially if you already have a day job...

While there isn't an official tax framework for cryptocurrencies yet, withdrawing a few thousand euros to my bank account wouldn't look too good, which is my main concern.

If only the bank is your concern then a crypto card may do the job, just they need KYC and you may not be able to withdraw more than 2-300 EUR/day at the ATMs. You can, however, use them for daily shopping. Just (again) yeah, they're KYC unless you go for the very "underground" anon cards AlexPCS is selling.

[so98nn]

Recently I have opened up one good channel for myself and that is via my remote employer. However, it is highly unlikely that you will be able to do it because you will need that kinda employer first and second trust between you guys. Now whatever I have in crypto I always used to withdraw it from the exchanger here. Since the budget was finalised back in 2021, India started imposing 30% flat tax on the crypto transaction along with 1% TDS. So this automatically took me in the slot of 30% making my crypto earnings worst and nothing used to be in my hands. Over period of time I got very close to my boss overseas and now they are literally friendly an always take up my bitcoins whenever I send it to them. Once I do they will send me payment via WISE or other WIRE facilities thus it just goes to my normal income slot and I dont get charged crazy 30% slot. I hope everyone will find such companions soon. Its more or less P2P only but with trust and known guy.

[Picaflor]

In my country the threshold is 40 EUR/transaction for a total of 120 EUR/year.
Between this tiny amount and the amounts needed to buy a house there are plenty of use cases for wanting to sell Bitcoin for fiat without KYC.

In the UK you don't pay CGT on realized gains of up to ~£12,000 / year and if your sale transactions total to under 3x that you don't even have to declare them.
That, however, is going to be halved from April this year, and halved again from April 2024.

If you want to buy something for more than 40 EUR on Amazon or similar, you can buy a gift card on Bitrefill or Paxos and even get a discount for it. There is also a way to pay with BTC for flights. More and more merchants are accepting bitcoin payments and LN is becoming more common too.

[NeuroticFish]

That, however, is going to be halved from April this year, and halved again from April 2024.

Yep, and this means that we better get prepared for the worse, since we cannot really rely on the threshold value. It's simply bound to become - sooner or later - too small.
Let's focus on the more productive ideas.

[tjtonmoy]

My best guess would be a P2P transaction in person, but that's quite unlikely.

P2P could be dangerous, you know. You never know someone's intention and not to mention someone totally stranger. They could harm you in many ways if they are from some gang or something like that. ATM can be a better option or online money transfer. You don't have to do any physical interaction there. Life comes first instead of money. Be sure to be safe. There was an incident in India few months ago where he was killed for disclosing his crypto HODLing.

[Ultegra134]

Or just stay below your CGT threshold.

If you need to sell a large amount, e.g. to buy a house

In my country the threshold is 40 EUR/transaction for a total of 120 EUR/year.
Between this tiny amount and the amounts needed to buy a house there are plenty of use cases for wanting to sell Bitcoin for fiat without KYC.

I've started accumulating from scratch; wouldn't the whole amount get taxed since it's basically a source of income? That's why I thought it'd be 24%.

You could have been mining those coins long ago. Or you could have been mining altcoins with your computer and sell for bitcoin.
It's not mandatory you've actually worked for them, especially if you already have a day job...

While there isn't an official tax framework for cryptocurrencies yet, withdrawing a few thousand euros to my bank account wouldn't look too good, which is my main concern.

If only the bank is your concern then a crypto card may do the job, just they need KYC and you may not be able to withdraw more than 2-300 EUR/day at the ATMs. You can, however, use them for daily shopping. Just (again) yeah, they're KYC unless you go for the very "underground" anon cards AlexPCS is selling.

Excuse me, I didn't quite understand what you meant. I've accumulated this sum of bitcoin through a variety of sources. I haven't bought a single one. Theoretically, isn't this income something that should be declared? I'm talking about the whole amount of coins.

I'm mostly in favor of splitting some earnings between a bank deposit, others to be withdrawn at cryptocurrency ATMs, and others on a crypto card such as Binance's. Staying 100% off the radar seems impossible, unless you have someone trusted enough to meet in person, which isn't generally advisable with large amounts of money.

[Silberman]

Hello there,

As I was driving earlier, this thought came through my mind. I've been accumulating Bitcoin for quite some time now, and at some point eventually I'll have to withdraw it in fiat, at least some of it. I'm not sure when that time will come, and I'm definitely not selling for anything below $50,000, but that's another story. However, I've always kept my bitcoin away from exchanges, and I prefer that it stays that way for obvious reasons that have been discussed numerous times in the forum.

Not only do I want to avoid exchanges but also banks, which is currently the most convenient way to withdraw money, but if I were to move funds to a bank account, they'd get taxed at 24%, which is a huge percentage. I've also thought about Bitcoin ATMs, but the majority of them here require some sort of KYC and feature expensive fees, although they may still be a better option than bank transfers. Is there an actual, reliable way to exchange bitcoin for cash in hand? My best guess would be a P2P transaction in person, but that's quite unlikely.

Your best option would be a P2P transaction, however in order to do this anonymously you will probably have to pay a high fee, but it will be way smaller than the 24% on taxes you will have to pay so it is worth looking into it, however if you do not really need to touch your bitcoin for a long time then it could come the day in which you will be able to use your bitcoin directly to buy what you want locally and your need to convert your bitcoin to fiat will disappear.

[dezoel]

You are right. P2p transactions in person or face to face is the best among all the options that you mentioned because there is no need a KYC for this and there are no hidden fees or extra charges. The best part is the price of the BTC that you want to buy or sell can be negotiable. You can put a higher or lower rate than on what is the suggest/standard rates on the market.

I am only curious on why you said it's quite unlikely. What do you actually mean by that? Are there no Bitcoin traders available nearby? Or are you scared about your security, something..? If that is the case then you can just go back to the option A which is by using an exchange. You aren't storing your money there for a long time anyway but you will just withdraw them right after transacting, so no worries about it getting hacked or frozen later on.

[Rizzrack]

I've accumulated this sum of bitcoin through a variety of sources. I haven't bought a single one. Theoretically, isn't this income something that should be declared? I'm talking about the whole amount of coins.

I think they should be declared, even though that is often a debatable subject.
What you will pay comes down to the national policy.
In Romania I can just say it was earned through trading and will be taxed 10% capital gains tax and depending on the amount another 200-600 EURO on top for some other taxes. Not the same as income tax. Income tax is about 45% in Romania so it better not be ))

If in Greece it's 15% than I don't see any reason for you to pay much more than that.

Banks are another touchy subject. Most do require proof of funds, some block accounts etc. Can't give you much advice on that front I'm afraid.

To be fair I am lucky because I know and trust a guy I call when I need to buy some FIAT with crypto. Mainly does P2P trading for a living and his services were/are used by many people I know. So would trust him even with bigger amounts, even if my average is a few hundred euros once in a full moon...

You gotta get a guy ! It's hard, he may not live close... but is worth it in the long run.

Also changing your financial residency at some point may be worth looking into but consult a professional for more info.

[NeuroticFish]

Excuse me, I didn't quite understand what you meant. I've accumulated this sum of bitcoin through a variety of sources. I haven't bought a single one. Theoretically, isn't this income something that should be declared? I'm talking about the whole amount of coins.

What I meant is that it's only you who knows where you've got those coins from and whether it's by working for them, or mined, or you've bought them long ago when KYC was not everywhere. And I don't think that anybody would invest too much of resources to find out if your declaration is for real or it's hiding a bit of details here and there.
Hence if you declare them as income then you'll probably pay income tax and if you declare them as capital gains (from 0 since you don't have receipts), then you'll pay capital gains tax.
That's how I see the things.

[stompix]

So, OP, you're question is basically how to avoid tax and not get in trouble.

You're from Greece, which means the EU, you're also not selling till $50 000 and if we start from the presumption it will be quite a bit of money I would advise you to not try even a p2p deal in cahs in Greece and this is the same for everyone else, not try it in your home nation and not in your hometown.
Get a cheap flight, arrange for a p2p deal in Croatia, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, or whatever as close as possible because of costs, and meet there with multiple! again, multiple traders split the sums. Or you can try finding some ATMs that still have limits for like 500E till they require KYC and visit 10 of them a day, sending each transaction from a different address so they don't red flag it.

And, be careful what you do with the cash after!

You're actually correct; it's 15% tax on declared profits. However, I haven't bought Bitcoin myself; I've started accumulating from scratch; wouldn't the whole amount get taxed since it's basically a source of income?

It doesn't matter how you accumulated it, the tax will be based on what you choose FIFO or weighted average and what proof you have you have bought that amount at x price.
And no, it's still capital tax gains, it will be 15%.
So if you have proof you've bought coins at $1000 and you sell at $50 000 you will pay only for how much you sell 15% of the 49k difference.

In Romania I can just say it was earned through trading and will be taxed 10% capital gains tax and depending on the amount another 200-600 EURO on top for some other taxes. Not the same as income tax. Income tax is about 45% in Romania so it better not be ))

The 45% is the tax plus health tax plus pension fund plus whatever else is there, right? Not just flat income (wage) tax?

[Yatsan]

Excuse me, I didn't quite understand what you meant. I've accumulated this sum of bitcoin through a variety of sources. I haven't bought a single one. Theoretically, isn't this income something that should be declared? I'm talking about the whole amount of coins.

What I meant is that it's only you who knows where you've got those coins from and whether it's by working for them, or mined, or you've bought them long ago when KYC was not everywhere. And I don't think that anybody would invest too much of resources to find out if your declaration is for real or it's hiding a bit of details here and there.
Hence if you declare them as income then you'll probably pay income tax and if you declare them as capital gains (from 0 since you don't have receipts), then you'll pay capital gains tax.
That's how I see the things.

It won't be suspicious if he/she has a business or high paying job to cover perhaps a huge amount to enter his/her account if ever he will be selling some of his/her crypto assets. Declaring it would be somewhat foolish especially if this industry is not having a wide support. It happened to my friend. Since he's unemployed his account was questioned when a huge amount was deposited mid last year which forced him to move to another one but decided to hide half of his welath under his brother's name which is a businessman, with consent ofcourse. If this is what is meant of declaration then think twice. But if it is just verbally sharing to other people, I see no other problem than to be at risk of being targeted by bad guys out there.

[nimogsm]

The best option is to look for offline exchangers.The first thing to start with is an exchange for a small amount to check how the service itself works.It is important not to change everything at once, but to carry out this procedure in several stages.The second important point is do not go to the deal alone, it is important to ensure your safety.And the third point is not to forget to check the money you received,they may be fake.

[Casdinyard]

Hello there,

As I was driving earlier, this thought came through my mind. I've been accumulating Bitcoin for quite some time now, and at some point eventually I'll have to withdraw it in fiat, at least some of it. I'm not sure when that time will come, and I'm definitely not selling for anything below $50,000, but that's another story. However, I've always kept my bitcoin away from exchanges, and I prefer that it stays that way for obvious reasons that have been discussed numerous times in the forum.

Not only do I want to avoid exchanges but also banks, which is currently the most convenient way to withdraw money, but if I were to move funds to a bank account, they'd get taxed at 24%, which is a huge percentage. I've also thought about Bitcoin ATMs, but the majority of them here require some sort of KYC and feature expensive fees, although they may still be a better option than bank transfers. Is there an actual, reliable way to exchange bitcoin for cash in hand? My best guess would be a P2P transaction in person, but that's quite unlikely.

I would've suggested using P2P since you're biggest enemy here will be the banks but you mentioned how you wanted to stay away from exchanges as much as possible so yeah. But in totality you wouldn't really have much options left if you were to rule exchanges out of your options, as you can easily take money in and out of exchanges nowadays, especially with Binance. Although honestly speaking you could still retain that sense of anonymity if you were to just withdraw money from that you need or want. You don't have to haul every single satoshi on your wallet and put it over an exchange for withdrawal, unless that's what you want. I myself have been off the radar relatively by keeping a cold wallet with me. If I find that I need to cash out a few extra bucks, I do so by transfering the exact amount I need plus extra for gas fees and I call it a day. I guess you could do the same thing as well.

[Bellarg]

p2p trade for cash on platforms without kyc is always the best option

[BenCodie]

If you don't want to use a bank or ATM to exchange bitcoins for money, you don't have many options. A P2P trade would certainly be the easiest in such a case. But it is not easy to find a suitable trading partner. Either way, you have to be careful not to be scammed or robbed in the process. Therefore, one should always be careful. Above all, you have to be careful not to get counterfeit money. 

There are a few options for exchanging bitcoin for cash, but each has its own risks and drawbacks that need to be considered.

Peer-to-Peer Transactions: This can be a reliable way to exchange bitcoin for cash, but it requires finding a trustworthy buyer and conducting the transaction in person.

Bitcoin ATMs: While some Bitcoin ATMs require KYC and have high fees, they can still be a better option than bank transfers. You can find Bitcoin ATMs near you through websites like Coin ATM Radar.

Cryptocurrency Exchanges: While you prefer to avoid exchanges, some exchanges offer the option to withdraw funds in cash, either through a direct deposit to a bank account or by withdrawing cash at a partner ATM. However, this option may still involve paying taxes and dealing with banks.

Over-the-counter (OTC) Trades: Some OTC trading desks allow you to trade large amounts of bitcoin without having to go through an exchange. You can find OTC traders through websites like ex-LocalBitcoins (offline now) or through referrals from trusted sources.

Regardless of the method you choose, it's important to exercise caution and do your own research before making any decisions. It's always a good idea to consult a financial advisor or tax professional for guidance on the tax implications of your specific situation.

To add to both of these suggestions, you can use a decentralized application such as Bisq. Depending on your area, there may be reputable traders who can facilitate a P2P trade. There are also similar options for other cryptocurrencies. The benefit of these platforms are their automated escrow systems and their reputation systems. You should be okay if you find a reputable trader and you follow the trade process as direct.