They still think crypto is easy to manipulate? - CEO Crunchbase

[Flexystar]

I dont know if I am on the right track but I laughed very hard after reading the title of that news (referred below). I dont know why would he say that but article just comapres the whole stuff with Fed Interest rate hikes and how they are affecting the crypto market, however in reality it's just baseless assumption.

How can he say and compare between the market cap of Tesla stocks and crypto market and state that it's easy to manipulate because both of them have mere difference of 350 billions dollars. He thinks, 1 trillion dollar is very small market cap for the crypto and it could be easily manipulated.

However, his assumption is based on the volume alone and not the factual analysis. Isn't crypto is also a technological advancement that was invented very recently and also under stringent jurisdiction all over the world? It still makes up most of the market despite the fact that its being boxed up by governments.

Another point he forgot to consider is, decentralization. How one can get to manipulate such market which is distributed through public ledger down to the pennies!

Aside from Bitcoin, Ether, and a few other cryptocurrencies with a high trading volume, investing in crypto is "more risky" than buying penny stocks, according to Ronald AngSiy, COO of CEO.ca, who previously worked as a blockchain expert.

"Any individual can manipulate crypto prices today because of how small the market cap is," he observed. "Once you get to the smaller cryptocurrencies, that's where it's significantly more risky than a penny stock for investors."

He highlighted that Tesla stock has a market cap of $650 billion, while the entire crypto market only has a market cap of $1 trillion, making crypto "easy" to manipulate.

"If you look at the price of a Binance token, versus the price of a Tesla stock, you'll see how small the crypto market is," he suggested. "It's hard, in such a small market, to say how what's happening in the world will directly affect prices today."

AngSiy spoke with David Lin, Anchor and Producer at Kitco News.

Bearish Crypto Trends in 2023

AngSiy suggested that there is "more pain ahead for crypto investors" in 2023, as the Federal Reserve continues to hike interest rates.

"How that pain is manifested is hard to exactly say, because the crypto market is so small that you could have one or two front-end entities manipulate the price of whole crypto market," he said.

He observed that since Bitcoin came into being in 2008, the crypto market has only experienced a "low interest-rate world," with the Effective Fed Funds Rate (EFFR) never rising beyond 2.5 percent until 2022. Currently, the EFFR is around 4.5 percent, and Fed Chairman Jerome Powell has stated that further hikes are expected until the Fed reaches a terminal rate of around 5 percent in 2023.

"We've never seen it [crypto] in a high and growing interest-rate world, which is what is happening right now," he said. "When you look at low interest-rate environments, it's easier for investors to borrow money, and then to take that money and then allocate a portion of it to crypto… now you're seeing money being pulled back from risk assets [like crypto] and either allocated to safer assets, or you're seeing risk assets being margin called."

Despite the fact that FED is continuously increasing interest rates I believe bitcoin had null effects during the new year season. In fact opposite of that happened and bitcoin went up pretty good and it's not even full fist quarter.

What market he is talking about ? Interest on the bitcoin is not getting increased?

[franky1]

because you can only buy tesla shares in whole units. it requires people to buy whole shares. thus to affect the tesla market means people need to buy alot of shares
also stocks and shares dont have "trading pairs" of swapping assets. thus cant offer internal arbitrage opportunity

however crypto
you can make a market price fluctuation by only needing to buy decimal amounts
and because markets in crypto have multiple trading pairs people can arbitrage those to cycle that same small allotment in circles and re-use it at low cost to ping another order processing.

the average bitcoin order is not 1btc or 100btc. its actually 0.025btc
when someone sells bitcoin to keep a price down. they can use that $ to then buy ethereum. then do ethereum->btc then sell that same allotment for dollar again
thus can generate alot of volume without spending more then 0.025btc

since april 2022 we have seen some of this manipulation

instead of the free market ups and downs pre april 2022
we can see on the 1 year market char the horizontal (unnatural) lines of price resistance holding and suppressing the price below certain lines

/\/\
     \/\
         ^~~\
               ^~~~~\            /^{~
                        ~~~~~~}

this is where whales have been making "futures options" bets on prices and then using a small amout of coin to daytrade arbitrage using bots to create the resistance to keep prices below certain lines. which by the endof 2022(new year of 2023) those whales relaxed their resistances to allow prices to re aclimate to prices over $17k

if you look at the monthly-3monthly charts you can see the1-2 weekly resistance lines of $21.5k. $23k. $24k $23k and this week appears to be a $25k resistance

[serveria.com]

investing in crypto is "more risky" than buying penny stocks

Dude is 100% correct here: crypto! Please note: he mentions crypto (shitcoins), not Bitcoin and I could agree with that.

As to the ability to manipulate Bitcoin, maybe he's also partially right: it can be done, but will be more problematic than manipulating any stock. Why? In order to dump coins, one must have coins. So you'll have to buy a boatload of Bitcoin and there is a possibility that scarcity will kick in and you won't like the price at some moment as more Bitcoiners will want to sell at a higher price or not sell at all. Amount of bitcoins on exchanges is also limited. Easier said than done. 

[coolcoinz]

since april 2022 we have seen some of this manipulation

/snip/

this is where whales have been making "futures options" bets on prices and then using a small amout of coin to daytrade arbitrage using bots to create the resistance to keep prices below certain lines. which by the endof 2022(new year of 2023) those whales relaxed their resistances to allow prices to re aclimate to prices over $17k

if you look at the monthly-3monthly charts you can see the1-2 weekly resistance lines of $21.5k. $23k. $24k $23k and this week appears to be a $25k resistance

I'd argue that we've been witnessing this since futures were introduced.
You should remember that in December of 2017 and January 2018 we were in the top of the bull market and at that exact time they opened the CME. The result of that was an instant crash of bitcoin's price and the beginning of these "bart simpson" price patterns. The same patterns with strangely suppressed levels that you're talking about.

I've talked about it years ago, that IMO rich people are using high liquidity and low risk of the CME to bet billions of dollars on the bitcoin market and they're teaming up with bitcoin traders and/or miners to coordinate with their orders.

Why would they do it?
Imagine that  you've got a friend who has a lot of bitcoin left that he got cheap years ago and you both know he's going to sell at some point. He promises to let you know when he decides to sell, so you can bet on futures at that time, you promise to give him a share of your profit.
This system allows people who bought and would never buy bitcoin to profit from the same trade together. But it's worse, if introduced near or at the top of the bear market, futures incentivize shorting. You can be sure people who don't want bitcoin exposure, people who despite bull market don't own any bitcoin, will bet hard on it going down, and that's exactly what happened. The timing was perfect for short sellers, and that's why it was chosen by the CME.

[stompix]

Despite the fact that FED is continuously increasing interest rates I believe bitcoin had null effects during the new year season. In fact opposite of that happened and bitcoin went up pretty good and it's not even full fist quarter.

Pick a graph, go to the dates the FED has released both inflation data (which was a reason for hiking rates) and interest rate itself, and see how Bitcoin has fared on those dates.
You have my thread here, 3 times in a row Bitcoin reacted to CPI data the moment it was released, and people anticipated a more drastic reduction of rate hikes. Go to each month on the 12 or 14 when the data was released and you're going to see the jump or the dump exactly at that hour.

As for this going up, it's exactly because of it, everyone anticipating a slowdown in FED's reaction.

However, his assumption is based on the volume alone and not the factual analysis. Isn't crypto is also a technological advancement that was invented very recently and also under stringent jurisdiction all over the world?

And still, when Elon fartered some non-sense on Twitter we went down the same way as Tesla shares, what dictates the price in crypto is the money that's involved and the profit people want to grab out of it, if they see a chance to make a quick 2x in a day they will forget everything about technological advancement and buy it or sell it like there is no tomorrow.

Another point he forgot to consider is, decentralization. How one can get to manipulate such market which is distributed through public ledger down to the pennies!

What part of decentralization stops a publicly traded coin from having the price manipulated?
If somebody would drop 3000BTC right now on Biannce it would rash the USDT pair nearly 5k, how could you stop it, and this despite a claimed 11 billion volume. Everything can be manipulated as long as you have the pockets for it, there is no such thing as an asset that would not feel the burn if somebody would dump a huge amount at the right time, and furthermore, this will be all done on centralized exchanges, the whole decentralization is useless when you rely on those for establishing the spot price.

[odolvlobo]

Aside from Bitcoin, Ether, and a few other cryptocurrencies with a high trading volume, investing in crypto is "more risky" than buying penny stocks, according to Ronald AngSiy, COO of CEO.ca, who previously worked as a blockchain expert.

Bitcoin is extremely risky because it has yet to prove that its utility justifies its price. Speculation is all that supports the price right now and there is a very good possibility that the predicted utility of Bitcoin never materializes, and a collapse in its price would reflect that reality.

[el kaka22]

I still do not understand why these big names are making up risks that they can't calculate to make a point. You have no idea if bitcoin is more risky than some penny stock, first of all you do not know which penny stock we are talking about, there are less risky ones and there are more risky ones, you would have zero ideas how that would work.

Secondly when we are talking about penny stocks, we are talking about very little regulations and people could scam you very easily, literally "build" a company in a friends name, and make you invest into it as well. All in all bitcoin is much more safe, and it will stay that way forever, we are beyond that risk level now, been beyond that for years.

[bittraffic]

Was it part of FED's plan to keep raising interest rates because they want to manipulate crypto?

It was successful in 2022 though. It's been the reason more people are waiting for Jerome's statement and what the market will do every time he says on the press con. Raising interest rates, however, doesn't just affect crypto but also the stock market. I think its different this time because of the looming debt default which investors are concerned about hedging from inflation because Quantitative easing may happen again in the coming months and the option is crypto apart from gold.

[MoonOfLife]

Bitcoin is still a speculative market, nothing more and there is no regulation on it yet so manipulation is what is happening. You would be naive to assume that decentralized bitcoin cannot be manipulated. Remember what Elon did in 2021, just one of his tweets was enough to make the market move, let alone spend money to manipulate it. No asset class is dependent on supply and demand that can fluctuate several tens of percent in a day.

[Captain Corporate]

They are basically not aware of the marketcap and how much people actually have. When you are that rich, and you see the marketcap of some coins, you could technically think that you may end up manipulating it yourself. After all, many people with 100+ million dollars could actually manipulate it, not bitcoin but some of the others at least. On the other hand, they do not realize that average person in the world makes about 20k dollars per year, and that means we can't even do it to most smallest ones, only if it is like less than a grand volume per day we may end up capable of doing it, and those are not the ones he is talking about.

[goldkingcoiner]

The lower the market cap, the easier the price of the coin or token is to manipulate. This is just simple logic.

So I do not see how exactly it is NOT easy to manipulate. All you really need is a lot of money. Even Bitcoin was manipulated greatly when it just started out with a small market cap. A lot of rich whales do this everyday with new coins or tokens that are new and have a low market cap. We call those coins pump and dump schemes.

Especially if the coin can be leveraged as a derivative. At that point, liquidating the funds of the smaller investors is very easy. Incidentally the exact reason why I stay away from derivatives nowadays.

[serveria.com]

Bitcoin is still a speculative market, nothing more and there is no regulation on it yet so manipulation is what is happening. You would be naive to assume that decentralized bitcoin cannot be manipulated. Remember what Elon did in 2021, just one of his tweets was enough to make the market move, let alone spend money to manipulate it. No asset class is dependent on supply and demand that can fluctuate several tens of percent in a day.

Well, Bitcoin is growing more and more mature every year. Musk tweeted some bs later and it didn't work - Bitcoin didn't react. In 2017 mailmen and grannies selling caused Bitcoin to dump and end it's cycle. Do you think it could be possible today? 

[so98nn]

They are definitely saying the truth. In the real market you have securities of funds via different channels. For example a stock could be backed up by more than 50% holdings in the hands of owners or government conglomerates thus giving it firm strength to survive in the worst case scenario.

In case of crypto we already know it’s not possible. The only thing that keeps it alive is peeps trading it and it’s highly volatile in the long range. Even bitcoin shattered its graph multiple times to such down levels that pees started fearing whether it will ever come back or not?

I think dude is right and nothing is wrong with that.

[lionheart78]

investing in crypto is "more risky" than buying penny stocks

Dude is 100% correct here: crypto! Please note: he mentions crypto (shitcoins), not Bitcoin and I could agree with that.

Lol, crypto is a general term for all cryptocurrencies, it includes Bitcoin. Though I agree that investing in cryptocurrency is way more risky since the market isn't that regulated yet and there are more possibilities of a scam than a regulated one.

As to the ability to manipulate Bitcoin, maybe he's also partially right: it can be done, but will be more problematic than manipulating any stock. Why? In order to dump coins, one must have coins. So you'll have to buy a boatload of Bitcoin and there is a possibility that scarcity will kick in and you won't like the price at some moment as more Bitcoiners will want to sell at a higher price or not sell at all. Amount of bitcoins on exchanges is also limited. Easier said than done. 

The Bitcoin market can be manipulated though it is not as easy as before.  Ever seen the Bitcoin price crash due to some issue not really related to Bitcoin?  FTX, Terra Luna, they are not directly related to Bitcoin since they are centralized exchanges but when they collapse, Bitcoin is affected.  Why?  That is where manipulation comes in.  Since these two centralized company are too popular, those who wanted to crash the market price of Bitcoin use the chance to FUD the BTC market when these two centralized company collapsed.  Bitcoin price plummets as end result.

[teosanru]

I dont know if I am on the right track but I laughed very hard after reading the title of that news (referred below). I dont know why would he say that but article just comapres the whole stuff with Fed Interest rate hikes and how they are affecting the crypto market, however in reality it's just baseless assumption.

How can he say and compare between the market cap of Tesla stocks and crypto market and state that it's easy to manipulate because both of them have mere difference of 350 billions dollars. He thinks, 1 trillion dollar is very small market cap for the crypto and it could be easily manipulated.

However, his assumption is based on the volume alone and not the factual analysis. Isn't crypto is also a technological advancement that was invented very recently and also under stringent jurisdiction all over the world? It still makes up most of the market despite the fact that its being boxed up by governments.

Another point he forgot to consider is, decentralization. How one can get to manipulate such market which is distributed through public ledger down to the pennies!

Aside from Bitcoin, Ether, and a few other cryptocurrencies with a high trading volume, investing in crypto is "more risky" than buying penny stocks, according to Ronald AngSiy, COO of CEO.ca, who previously worked as a blockchain expert.

"Any individual can manipulate crypto prices today because of how small the market cap is," he observed. "Once you get to the smaller cryptocurrencies, that's where it's significantly more risky than a penny stock for investors."

He highlighted that Tesla stock has a market cap of $650 billion, while the entire crypto market only has a market cap of $1 trillion, making crypto "easy" to manipulate.

"If you look at the price of a Binance token, versus the price of a Tesla stock, you'll see how small the crypto market is," he suggested. "It's hard, in such a small market, to say how what's happening in the world will directly affect prices today."

AngSiy spoke with David Lin, Anchor and Producer at Kitco News.

Bearish Crypto Trends in 2023

AngSiy suggested that there is "more pain ahead for crypto investors" in 2023, as the Federal Reserve continues to hike interest rates.

"How that pain is manifested is hard to exactly say, because the crypto market is so small that you could have one or two front-end entities manipulate the price of whole crypto market," he said.

He observed that since Bitcoin came into being in 2008, the crypto market has only experienced a "low interest-rate world," with the Effective Fed Funds Rate (EFFR) never rising beyond 2.5 percent until 2022. Currently, the EFFR is around 4.5 percent, and Fed Chairman Jerome Powell has stated that further hikes are expected until the Fed reaches a terminal rate of around 5 percent in 2023.

"We've never seen it [crypto] in a high and growing interest-rate world, which is what is happening right now," he said. "When you look at low interest-rate environments, it's easier for investors to borrow money, and then to take that money and then allocate a portion of it to crypto… now you're seeing money being pulled back from risk assets [like crypto] and either allocated to safer assets, or you're seeing risk assets being margin called."

Despite the fact that FED is continuously increasing interest rates I believe bitcoin had null effects during the new year season. In fact opposite of that happened and bitcoin went up pretty good and it's not even full fist quarter.

What market he is talking about ? Interest on the bitcoin is not getting increased?

If we go by his logic. Small countries with a small stock markets are worthless. I understand there are small cap Cryptos which are merely nothing but shitcoins created for manipulation yet market isn't as easy to be manipulated by a single hand. Also it's generally a phase eventually the market will grow and evolve to a stage where it will be hard to manipulate even for the biggest. Talking about manipulation, stock markets despite all the large cap stocks still gets manipulated. So how is that better than Cryptos?

[Bushdark]

The whales have high potentials I'm the manipulation of Bitcoin that is why they control the market and would want us to sell our holdings so that they can make a lots of money. This is while the wise traders are not bothered about the market noice no matter how dip the market goes. The whales are very realistic in what they do and they make lots of money from our loses.
This is why they are not bothered if the market keep going down since they knows how to make the market goes bear and goes bullish.
I will not be bothered about what the market present but determine to walk around the rough and zigzag path that will lead to the bull.

[yhiaali3]

There is no denying the fact that the crypto market is highly volatile and can be manipulated, but not as easily as the article talks about.

It is true that cryptocurrencies are decentralized, but there are some whales that control and manipulate the crypto market, but they do not have complete control over the market. Of course, they can direct it in the direction they want, but in the end they are also interested in preserving the survival of the crypto market, otherwise they will lose millions of dollars.

Whales are the main players in the Crypto market as well as in dollar stock exchanges. Whales also manipulate stock exchanges. Why doesn't the article talk about that as well?

[BitDane]

There is no denying the fact that the crypto market is highly volatile and can be manipulated, but not as easily as the article talks about.

It was so easy, remember just one tweet from Elon Musk the market of some cryptocurrency project easily spiked up. Even Bitcoin is easily manipulated by group of popular infuencer if they keep on hyping or FUD'ing the market.

It is true that cryptocurrencies are decentralized, but there are some whales that control and manipulate the crypto market, but they do not have complete control over the market. Of course, they can direct it in the direction they want, but in the end they are also interested in preserving the survival of the crypto market, otherwise they will lose millions of dollars.

This is one of the reason why cryptocurrency is easily manipulated.  There is no governing body that secure the market of manipulation, whales can easily do their manipulation freely without being apprehended.

Whales are the main players in the Crypto market as well as in dollar stock exchanges. Whales also manipulate stock exchanges. Why doesn't the article talk about that as well?

Whales coupled with influencer are the best manipulator in the cryptocurrency industry, IMO.

[erep]

There is no denying the fact that the crypto market is highly volatile and can be manipulated, but not as easily as the article talks about.

It is true that cryptocurrencies are decentralized, but there are some whales that control and manipulate the crypto market, but they do not have complete control over the market. Of course, they can direct it in the direction they want, but in the end they are also interested in preserving the survival of the crypto market, otherwise they will lose millions of dollars.

Whales are the main players in the Crypto market as well as in dollar stock exchanges. Whales also manipulate stock exchanges. Why doesn't the article talk about that as well?

They rarely relate whales manipulating the dollar stock market but they don't stop talking about whales manipulating the crypto market, they have a reason why post crypto market fud to panic traders and investors and they want to buy bitcoin at low price, crypto investors are very wise to respond to the news and will not be affected by fud news about whales because whales are also investors who have the most bitcoins and they also want to profit from investing in bitcoin.

[Fivestar4everMVP]

What market he is talking about ? Interest on the bitcoin is not getting increased?

For me basically, i think the lad has some good point, i might be wrong though, but i think the guy is talking about the interest those who keep their money in the bank earn as APY or APR, and the game play here is that, the more that interest keeps going up, the more it is expected that many investors will pull out their money from crypto currencies to save it in their bank account so they could be earning the said interest on it.

And he is also right about Small cap crypto coins being easy to manipulate, aside bitcoin, Ethereum and some other major altcoins with market cap running in billions, i can agree that the rest of the altcoins available can be easily manipulated by really big money, but still, that does not deter true believers from investing in the project they find to have lots of potentials, after all, cryptocurrency is still a growing industry and i believe that with time, a lot of good and quality projects will have their market cap running in trillions and 100s of billions.