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mailsats (OP)
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March 06, 2023, 07:07:16 AM
Merited by Welsh (1)
 #1

I have been reading some news items about ordinals, and how some bad actors are using them to upload very inappropriate content to the blockchain

I was also recently thinking of starting a LN node. Now I am worried: if I download the blockchain, would that in effect mean that my hard drive would contain content that could get me in trouble?



Thanks for any help / info you can provide.
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There are several different types of Bitcoin clients. The most secure are full nodes like Bitcoin Core, but full nodes are more resource-heavy, and they must do a lengthy initial syncing process. As a result, lightweight clients with somewhat less security are commonly used.
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March 06, 2023, 11:36:59 AM
 #2

It matters where you live and how strict your government is but this could be a problem in the future and I think a lot of governments might ban Bitcoin because of this problem. I do not agree with it but we probably need to find a solution to stop people posting inappropriate information to the Blockchain and then everyone who runs a node having a copy of it.
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March 06, 2023, 11:43:39 AM
 #3

I don't know where you live, so i don't whether you could get trouble or not. However,
1. If you use Bitcoin Core, all data would be obfuscated with random obfuscation key and XOR operation. So generic content detector won't find any inappropriate content on your HDD.
2. Lenient/flexible government should understand your intention is running Bitcoin node, not intentionally storing inappropriate content. If running Tor exit node is legal on your country, it's less likely you'll face trouble.

Thanks

I'm in Canada
I'll make sure to use tor with my node, I am pretty sure it's installed and active by default when running the node.
( thanks for the info on obfuscation key and xor operation, got to study that )

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March 06, 2023, 11:51:08 AM
 #4

It matters where you live and how strict your government is but this could be a problem in the future and I think a lot of governments might ban Bitcoin because of this problem. I do not agree with it but we probably need to find a solution to stop people posting inappropriate information to the Blockchain and then everyone who runs a node having a copy of it.


This feels like a big problem to me... Blockchain is immutable and censorship resistant, but unfortunately people can be evil, and take advantage of something meant to be a good thing Sad

really bugs me
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March 06, 2023, 12:06:42 PM
 #5

While Ordinals allow for storage of larger files on the Bitcoin blockchain, be aware that this is far from being a new issue:
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/mar/20/child-abuse-imagery-bitcoin-blockchain-illegal-content

This didn't lead to a legal precedent then and is (in my opinion) unlikely to lead to legal precedent now. Keep in mind that in the end you'd have to explicitely extract and process the data in for it to turn into media, so without intention you are not able to access any of the images anyway.


...unless you are running Ordinals as well, in which case, things could get interesting, legally speaking:
https://crypto.news/bitcoin-ordinals-encounters-explicit-images-days-after-launch/



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March 06, 2023, 12:36:34 PM
 #6

I think that should be your last concern. First and foremost, there is Tor, so initial block downloading can be obfuscated. Secondly, you can run a pruned node, and therefore avoid storing any inappropriate / illegal data.

But, in my opinion there isn't much concern anyway. If your government wants to punish you for happening to share illegal content when running Bitcoin, they're likely just punish you for running Bitcoin. But even in that case, I don't think Bitcoin nodes are seen as targets.

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March 06, 2023, 01:28:41 PM
 #7

It matters where you live and how strict your government is but this could be a problem in the future and I think a lot of governments might ban Bitcoin because of this problem. I do not agree with it but we probably need to find a solution to stop people posting inappropriate information to the Blockchain and then everyone who runs a node having a copy of it.


This feels like a big problem to me... Blockchain is immutable and censorship resistant, but unfortunately people can be evil, and take advantage of something meant to be a good thing Sad

really bugs me
Yes the few ruin it for the many and I think it is some thing that we will need to amend in the future especially if governments become more hostile towards Bitcoin. I do not mind complying with laws when they concern something like ordinals. ordinals have very little use cases and do more harm then good.
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March 06, 2023, 05:36:50 PM
Merited by ABCbits (1)
 #8

I don't know where you live, so i don't whether you could get trouble or not. However,
1. If you use Bitcoin Core, all data would be obfuscated with random obfuscation key and XOR operation. So generic content detector won't find any inappropriate content on your HDD.

This is not entirely correct as far as I know. The chainstate is obfuscated, but the blk*.dat files are not and contain the raw unobfuscated Bitcoin blocks.
mailsats (OP)
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March 07, 2023, 06:32:53 AM
 #9

One could in a new core version,
Simply encrypted the blockchain with AES.
The own private key for the wallet would also be suitable as an AES key.
Then no government of the world could decipher its blockchain.

Apart from that, everyone who is afraid can simply encrypt their hard drive.


good idea
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March 07, 2023, 07:22:17 AM
 #10

It matters where you live and how strict your government is but this could be a problem in the future and I think a lot of governments might ban Bitcoin because of this problem. I do not agree with it but we probably need to find a solution to stop people posting inappropriate information to the Blockchain and then everyone who runs a node having a copy of it.


This feels like a big problem to me... Blockchain is immutable and censorship resistant, but unfortunately people can be evil, and take advantage of something meant to be a good thing Sad

really bugs me

Well they take advantage of everything: social media, AI, Web3...

So you should not be surprised that people are intentionally trying to wreck it. But being a decentralized network, Bitcoin node operators can simply ignore it and move on, and not face any legal trouble for hosting that kinds of content (unless they live in a truly incompetent government that holds operators responsible for the actions of "its users").

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March 07, 2023, 08:30:14 AM
 #11

I don't know where you live, so i don't whether you could get trouble or not. However,
1. If you use Bitcoin Core, all data would be obfuscated with random obfuscation key and XOR operation. So generic content detector won't find any inappropriate content on your HDD.

2. Lenient/flexible government should understand your intention is running Bitcoin node, not intentionally storing inappropriate content. If running Tor exit node is legal on your country, it's less likely you'll face trouble.


But the question, can Ordinals, if used to inscribe child-porn in the blockchain and build a Darknet market place for it, be used as an attack vector by State-Attackers to give them a reason to order users to shut down their nodes because "aiding and abetting the child-porn market"?

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mailsats (OP)
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March 07, 2023, 09:01:18 AM
 #12

It matters where you live and how strict your government is but this could be a problem in the future and I think a lot of governments might ban Bitcoin because of this problem. I do not agree with it but we probably need to find a solution to stop people posting inappropriate information to the Blockchain and then everyone who runs a node having a copy of it.


This feels like a big problem to me... Blockchain is immutable and censorship resistant, but unfortunately people can be evil, and take advantage of something meant to be a good thing Sad

really bugs me

Well they take advantage of everything: social media, AI, Web3...

So you should not be surprised that people are intentionally trying to wreck it. But being a decentralized network, Bitcoin node operators can simply ignore it and move on, and not face any legal trouble for hosting that kinds of content (unless they live in a truly incompetent government that holds operators responsible for the actions of "its users").

Yes, but if you run a node, then you have the blockchain downloaded onto your harddrive, which includes any nasty ordinal content
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March 07, 2023, 02:51:23 PM
 #13

I was also recently thinking of starting a LN node. Now I am worried: if I download the blockchain, would that in effect mean that my hard drive would contain content that could get me in trouble?
Chances of someone checking your hard drive for content is very low, but you can protect yourself with running bitcoin node with Tor, and having your hard drive encrypted by default (that can easily be done with Linux OS).
I wouldn't worry so much about that because running a node is not illegal anywhere, but it's always good to be ready to protect all files on your computer, not just bitcoin related.
Minimum you can do is adding strong login password and use separate device for node, not your everyday computer.

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March 07, 2023, 06:02:30 PM
 #14

One could in a new core version,
Simply encrypted the blockchain with AES.
The own private key for the wallet would also be suitable as an AES key.
Then no government of the world could decipher its blockchain.

Apart from that, everyone who is afraid can simply encrypt their hard drive.

Encrypt the blockchain data on your hard drive, how would other nodes read your encrypted data? If it's accessible for other nodes, it will be accessible to everyone, you can't hide/ lock the data if you want to maintain a node.

If a "government" wants to limit the non-transactional data on nodes in their country, they should limit the miners not to mine them in the first place, and one government knows they don't have the power to limit all the miners, and no power to actually control individual node's behavior, but they do have the power to limit services such as block explorers and other online services engaging in the distribution and exchange of such data.

They can't censor nodes just because of some garbage which you could get even without running a node.

And no dark web trader wants that much attention, they wouldn't touch ordinal/ whatever else as their advertisement medium. If you see such data there, it's not the usual illegal traders, it's the opposition trying to fight the junk.

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March 07, 2023, 06:09:21 PM
 #15

Encrypt the blockchain data on your hard drive
What? Why such fuss? Just go pruned or disable the sharing of your blocks manually.

If a "government" wants to limit the non-transactional data on nodes in their country, they should limit the miners not to mine them in the first place, and one government knows they don't have the power to limit all the miners, and no power to actually control individual node's behavior, but they do have the power to limit services such as block explorers and other online services engaging in the distribution and exchange of such data.
They can't do shit, in my opinion, for if they could, they would already have. Bitcoin nodes? They are not targets in the first place. Miners? They can't detect who's mining practically. Block explorers / SPV servers / Users? Tor.

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digaran
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March 07, 2023, 06:59:35 PM
 #16

Encrypt the blockchain data on your hard drive
What? Why such fuss? Just go pruned or disable the sharing of your blocks manually.

If a "government" wants to limit the non-transactional data on nodes in their country, they should limit the miners not to mine them in the first place, and one government knows they don't have the power to limit all the miners, and no power to actually control individual node's behavior, but they do have the power to limit services such as block explorers and other online services engaging in the distribution and exchange of such data.
They can't do shit, in my opinion, for if they could, they would already have. Bitcoin nodes? They are not targets in the first place. Miners? They can't detect who's mining practically. Block explorers / SPV servers / Users? Tor.
Never suggested encrypting the data, that was a question.
I was also speaking generally, if there is a global ban on services related to ordinal/image/ garbage content creators on blockchain, they can't use clear net, so they will have to go deep in the dark net, where they belong.

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March 07, 2023, 07:46:07 PM
 #17

Miners? They can't detect who's mining practically.

I'd disagree . Mining activity is the easiest to be detected and by using VPN you mess with profitability , so no serious miner will try to connect through VPN .
Mining is more and more concentrated as the time pass . Currently US miners are the majority and most of the hashrate is in countries that regulations for miners can be applied .
Mining pools are big entities , so easy to control and regulate .
In a few words , the most important part of the network can be controlled . It wouldn't be an easy task , but not impossible .

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March 07, 2023, 07:55:55 PM
 #18

I'd disagree . Mining activity is the easiest to be detected and by using VPN you mess with profitability , so no serious miner will try to connect through VPN .
I presume you believe the detection comes from the Internet packages the miners send. But you can't detect miners who just mine block headers and send it to the pool this way. I'm not quite sure if you could detect an anonymous pool either, just from Internet packages. You need to rely on the fact that big pools are known.

Mining is more and more concentrated as the time pass . Currently US miners are the majority and most of the hashrate is in countries that regulations for miners can be applied .
As far as I know, the most invested mining infrastructure is located in countries with the least hostile regulation.

In a few words , the most important part of the network can be controlled . It wouldn't be an easy task , but not impossible .
Depends. There are farms who moved onto other places, just because the government started being very hostile. Lots moved to Texas for example.

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March 07, 2023, 08:46:10 PM
Last edit: March 07, 2023, 09:00:59 PM by HmmMAA
 #19

I presume you believe the detection comes from the Internet packages the miners send. But you can't detect miners who just mine block headers and send it to the pool this way. I'm not quite sure if you could detect an anonymous pool either, just from Internet packages. You need to rely on the fact that big pools are known.
The key point here are the pools . You don't have to control the pyramid's base but just the top . And as long as the pools exist behind a domain , control is possible .
Pools can be forced for example to accept work from specific IP regions . I'm not certain what else regulators can think but as the backbone is depended on the internet access and there's financial incentive from miners , i see many possible scenarios .
I'm not certain what you mean by an anonymous pool . Pools need to be honest and i don't think people that want to profit will trust a non identified entity .    

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As far as I know, the most invested mining infrastructure is located in countries with the least hostile regulation.
Least hostile atm , you never know what tomorrow brings to the scene .

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Depends. There are farms who moved onto other places, just because the government started being very hostile. Lots moved to Texas for example.
These farms lost months of profit and places in the mining race . When you buy equipment and you lose the advantage of new equipment ( as the newer generations are much more profitable ) , it's not the best move to mess with your profitability because you don't agree with the politics . Maybe you can do as being a small miner but it's not that easy ( and certainly unprofitable ) for big mining farms .


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March 07, 2023, 09:08:04 PM
 #20

I'm not certain what you mean by an anonymous pool .
I mean either centralized pools with owner being unknown, or decentralized pools like p2pool.

Least hostile atm , you never know what tomorrow brings to the scene .
You don't, but you can guess the consequences. Bitcoin is a decentralized currency, in a world of centralized currencies. A country being hostile towards bitcoin, is a country that pushes itself away from it.

These farms lost months of profit and places in the mining race . When you buy equipment and you lose the advantage of new equipment ( as the newer generations are much more profitable ) , it's not the best move to mess with your profitability because you don't agree with the politics
But you do follow profitability. Moving your equipment to another country (due to either politics or costs) is a decision based on pure profit. If this decision is too costly, you don't move, but if a government official comes out and makes Bitcoin mining illegal, it doesn't leave you with lots of choices.

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