Should the forum stop advertising mixers?

[rat03gopoh]

Is it only for known-paid campaigns, or what if the payment agreement is done outside the forum? Since the signature and avatar space has been provided for granted, where it is free to add any content the user likes with or without payment.
What if bans will be handled per user, anyone with mixer ad content on their profile attributes will get perma-ban?

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[Jawhead999]

I know forum is against porn campaigns so how about mixers after this fiasco?

Where did you read this? I check there are 2 porn campaigns in bounties, not sure if there's another more:
1. [ANN] [BOUNTY] ? VOGOV ? LOVE CRYPTO AND PORN?
2. Dogeporn.finance cum with us [Bounty] 💰🕵🏻‍♂️ 30 BNB in DOGEPORN 🥳

It's not about the project is scam or not, but when someone break the rule of the forum, usually the moderators will give a punishment. Just like how forum not allowing altcoins giveaway, the user will get temporary ban for doing it.

I don't see any reason why forum shouldn't allow to advertise about mixer, if you only look at the bad side, any project will have a bad side no matter how good it is. Just like gambling, do you think gambling addict doesn't cause harm to the addict's family and not increasing of criminal rate?

So should the forum stop advertising gambling?

[Husires]

Some mixers signature campaigns (particularly Chipmixer) have contributed to raising the quality of posts in the forum greatly. They have been going on for more than 5 years and some of the best accounts who were making posts wore their signatures. Therefore, indirectly, those mixers and through signature campaigns contributed to making this forum especially valuable.

I know forum is against porn campaigns so how about mixers after this fiasco?

are you sure? This is one of the signature campaigns for a porn site Xotika.TV Signature Campaign - Earn Bitcoins the sexy way!

[nutildah]

Mixers are not prohibited by law.

In the US, a money transmitter license is required as mixers are classified as a "money services business." No mixer has one, as far as I know...

https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1574581/download

18. Based on my training and experience, I am aware the Bank Secrecy Act requires
anyone who owns or controls a money transmitting business to register with the United States
Department of the Treasury. See 31 U.S.C. § 5330(a)(1). I am further aware that federal
regulations issued pursuant to the Bank Secrecy Act define a “money services business,” which
include “money transmitter(s).” 31 C.F.R. § 1010.100(ff)(5). Money transmitters are defined
broadly to include anyone who “accept(s) . . . currency, funds, or other value that substitutes for
currency from one person and . . . transmi(ts) . . . currency, funds, or other value that substitutes
for currency to another location or person by any means,” as well as “[a]ny other person engaged
in the transfer of funds.” 31 C.F.R. § 1010.100(ff)(5)(i)(A)-(B). MSBs are required to register
with FinCEN, a division of the Department of the Treasury, unless specific exemptions apply. 31
C.F.R. § 1022.380(a)(1). MSBs are required to establish and maintain anti-money laundering
programs, to detect and report suspicious transactions, and to collect certain records of customers
and customer transactions. I am further aware that bitcoin “mixers” or “tumblers” such as
ChipMixer are considered to be MSBs under federal law. See U.S. Department of Treasury
FinCEN Guidance, Application of FinCEN’s Regulations to Certain Business Models Involving
Convertible Virtual Currencies, FIN-2019-G001 (May 9, 2019), at 19-20.

Sorry to put it so bluntly but anyone advertising a mixer that doesn't have this license is advertising an illegal business (if the business is servicing US-based customers, anyway).

Funny, its actually been the case since May 2019, but either nobody here knew this or the ones who did never said anything about it.

Not saying the forum administration needs to make changes either way, but individuals participating in mixer sig campaigns should at least be aware of this.

[PrimeNumber7]

Should forum admin consider to stop all campaigns related to mixers?

The forum does not directly advertise mixers, and has banned the participation of mixing services in forum advertising auctions for a long time. The forum is likely covered by section 230 when it comes to what its users chose to advertise on their signature.

[Charles-Tim]

In the US, a money transmitter license is required as mixers are classified as a "money services business." No mixer has one, as far as I know...

This makes me remember what I read about mixer some months ago on a Chainanlysis report:

Are crypto mixers legal?
Despite their use by criminals, crypto mixers are not explicitly illegal in most jurisdictions. Whether they are compliant, however, is a different question.

In the United States, the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCEN) has confirmed that individuals and centralized businesses offering custodial mixing services must register as money transmitters under the Bank Secrecy Act (BSA), and have three key obligations:

register with FinCEN,
maintain an anti-money laundering and know-your-customer compliance program, and
meet all applicable reporting and record-keeping requirements.

We aren’t aware of any custodial mixers currently following these rules. And given that privacy preservation is the main reason that many users interact with crypto mixers, it seems unlikely that one could implement these procedures and still retain their users.

If centralized mixers would will fully follow KYC and AML rules, that make them not to be a mixer.

My point is that nothing concerns this forum, I wonder why the government are not going for google and many scam ads they are advertising. Businesses should have their own terms of service, this would be what would help them against sanctioning or ban. Assuming Chipmixer have been going for only legit transactions and obviously stated it in their rules, many funds that belongs to hackers and scammers might have been seized while many scammers will not use them for the fear of their money not to be seized. This would have helped and a day like yesterday may not come to unfavorable Chipmixer.

Nothing concerns this forum as long as they are not doing anything illegal, we are far better than many social media and many other forums. Our signature campaign is far better than google ads and many other ads. I do not see this as any problem at all and I know anything about this does not concern theymos or any other admin, this forum is not even having ads, but just individual member signature campaign. Then why someone would just suggest what is not when nothing like US regulators saying anything about this forum and mixers, not pressurizing any admin not to advertise mixers.

Mixers are good, but just that some bad actors are using it too, but I believe there are somethings that can be done to let only the good people that are privacy concerned to be the only one using it, or significantly reduce the bad actors from using it.

[digaran]

The platform is believed to have enabled the laundering of 152,000 BTC – around $3.8 billion at current prices – since 2017, a large share of which was connected to ransomware groups, illicit goods trafficking and child sexual exploitation.

Such shame, we need to do a "walk of shame" for those advertising such services, I guess their argument is "if someone kills a man with a knife, should we stop the sales of knives?" Yes if the knife has grooving on it, we should because it was designed to kill people faster.

Are mixers good for privacy? Yes they are perfect privacy tools for illegal activities. I wonder how many people used that service, 7 TB of data, lol it looks like they logged everything.

[mindrust]

I wonder how many people used that service, 7 TB of data, lol it looks like they logged everything.

It would be stupid If they didn't. I mean they knew that a payback day would eventually come. How are they going to pay back? By selling out those who used their services. D'uh.

That should be a lesson learned for everybody. Everything you do on the internet gets logged. Everything. If someone says otherwise, he is lying.

[LoyceV]

Funny, its actually been the case since May 2019, but either nobody here knew this or the ones who did never said anything about it.

Not saying the forum administration needs to make changes either way, but individuals participating in mixer sig campaigns should at least be aware of this.

So you're saying I should keep track of all changes to all laws in all countries on the planet?

[nutildah]

So you're saying I should keep track of all changes to all laws in all countries on the planet?

No

[Synchronice]

Many mixers were seized but it is a first time I read documents mentioned Bitcointalk directly like this by Chipmixer seize.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1574581/download

Should forum admin consider to stop all campaigns related to mixers?

I know forum is against porn campaigns so how about mixers after this fiasco?

when mixing sites get banned here for promoting money laundering

This press-release document doesn't really say anything harmful toward bitcointalk. Also, there is no direct mention of promoting it from someone other than NGUYEN himself. There is no mention of Chipmixer signature campaign, nor the mention of signature campaign manager.
Seems his alt account was hotpassion
Also, there is mentioned that:

NGUYEN frequently posts to both BitcoinTalk and Reddit promoting ChipMixer as a way to conceal bitcoin transactions

He was also posting at BlackHatWorld forum.
According to this document:
Bitcointalk - popular bitcoin message board.
Reddit - social media platform.
BlackHatWorld - forum.

I don't think this forum, nor its participants are in any danger and if there is something wrong, owner should receive the warning message. It's a public forum after all, this forum does nothing illegal, nor promotes anything illegal.

[yahoo62278]

I would be a little worried if I was wearing the chipmixer signature as the US government and its laws will basically allow advertisers/celebrities to be charged in a court of law for advertising a service.

Look at FTX and the celebrities they're going after.

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/ftx-crypto-investors-sue-founder-sam-bankman-fried-celebrity-promoters-rcna57453

Is it considered the same? I am not going to pretend to be a lawyer but looks like the government will try to make their point by any means necessary. Would theymos have to comply if the goverment steps in and asks for IPs of all who wore a chipmixer signature?

[mindrust]

Would theymos have to comply if the goverment steps in and asks for IPs of all who wore a chipmixer signature?

Theymos will give everybody's IP's on a platter.  Nobody else is more precious than my own skin. That's a common algorithm for the humans. It is called selfishness. Me first everybody else later. Theymos will also act according to this code especially when they make him face a jail sentence. He will chicken out and I don't blame him. I would do the same thing.

[Accardo]

I wonder how many people used that service, 7 TB of data, lol it looks like they logged everything.

How are they going to pay back? By selling out those who used their services. D'uh.

That should be a lesson learned for everybody. Everything you do on the internet gets logged. Everything. If someone says otherwise, he is lying.

Do you think Chipmixer would have the details of those that accessed their website with TOR browser? Just wondering because their customers care so much about privacy and wouldn't access the site with legit IP. Besides, I don't understand why forum users are worried about BTT appearing on a government document issued by the FBI. Chipmixer was promoted here by top reputable members, yet that doesn't make chipmixer, bitcointalk. The FBI are concerned about the illicit actions that chipmixer carried out with its customers and the huge amount of money they've mixed without traces. Why did the government appear now they mixed about $3b worth of transaction. If they freeze this forum how much money would they realize? who is their target? the government is after money nothing else. Chipmixer is not licensed that means they've gotten nothing monetary from the mixer yet they are making lots of money with the US citizens. And break laws, its allegedly used to rinse ransomware funds, fraud stores funds, dark web transaction etc. What matters is that these allegation doesn't make Nguyen guilty, until he is tried in court. Until then we'll know the faith of Chipmixer.

[Eternad]

should this forum take responsibility for all the crap that has happened so far, starting from MtGox to FTX, many discussions were held about all this.

Just want weigh in here. Mt Gox, FTX and other scammy shit doesn’t promote here. Probably they promote for a few months but that’s it. Mixer is widely promoting here through signature campaign. Somehow this is scary in case US will create an unfavorable analogy that forum is being use to advertise mixers that involves on money laundering.

I’m not against mixers promotion but it’s just hard to argue with authorities if somehow more mixers becomes involved and seize. I’m sure Bitcointalk will be subjected for investigation as common place which this mixer hangout for promotion.

[mindrust]

I wonder how many people used that service, 7 TB of data, lol it looks like they logged everything.

How are they going to pay back? By selling out those who used their services. D'uh.

That should be a lesson learned for everybody. Everything you do on the internet gets logged. Everything. If someone says otherwise, he is lying.

Do you think Chipmixer would have the details of those that accessed their website with TOR browser? Just wondering because their customers care so much about privacy and wouldn't access the site with legit IP. Besides, I don't understand why forum users are quarried about BTT appearing on a government document issued by the FBI. Chipmixer was promoted here by top reputable members, yet that doesn't make chipmixer, bitcointalk. The FBI are concerned about the illicit actions that chipmixer carried out with its customers and the huge amount of money they've mixed without traces. Why did the government appear now they mixed about $3b worth of transaction. If they freeze this forum how much money would they realize? who is their target? the government is after money nothing else. Chipmixer is not licensed that means they've gotten nothing monetary from the mixer yet they are making lots of money with the US citizens. And break laws, its allegedly used to rinse ransomware funds, fraud stores funds, dark web transaction etc. What matters is that these allegation doesn't make Nguyen guilty, until he is tried in court. Until then we'll know the faith of Chipmixer.

TOR is probably not as safe as you’d think. I don't know how, but I am pretty sure I read the news about people getting caught even though they used TOR. Caring about your privacy don't make you a privacy expert in an instant.

In fact, the greatest privacy experts out there know that the best way to remain anonymous is staying offline. Means, not playing this game at all.

They won't go after BTT unless it is in their interest to do so. I don't think we are there yet.

[jayce]

I know forum is against porn campaigns so how about mixers after this fiasco?

Wait what? Is this the reason why I cant find any NFSW images anymore in off-topic secti...  oh nvm *clears throat*

Many mixers were seized but it is a first time I read documents mentioned Bitcointalk directly like this by Chipmixer seize.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1574581/download

Should forum admin consider to stop all campaigns related to mixers?

I think this is one of the reasons why theymos decided to close the ads auction, because it's not easy to check if auction participants are legit or not. Especially mixers, it's hard to tell, since it's in a grey area, same like porn and gambling. Though, there are many people as well took the advantage of using it. I used Bitmixer.io regularly in the past and all of our transaction went well.

are you sure? This is one of the signature campaigns for a porn site Xotika.TV Signature Campaign - Earn Bitcoins the sexy way!

Damn I was the participant there! You dug down so deep

[Timelord2067]

I think I'm going to shine my "rejected applicant" badge I got (along with a blocking by the DT1/2 Trolls who were actively singing the Chipmixers' praises).

I wonder how many of those vocal advocates of Chipmixer are about to fall silent?

I've already seen one person has deleted their entire tread concerning Chipmixer and hidden it in the archive section...

🧐

[yahoo62278]

Whether the forum decides to stop allowing mixers to advertise is not as important as should all mixers be considered illegal? Is every transaction ran through a mixer an illegal transaction? We all know that people use mixers for illegal activity but are all transactions a mixer incurs an illegal transaction? So, why are mixers needed? Legit question IMO. The days of privacy are basically over.

What about sinbad mixer, are they next?

[Husires]

I would be a little worried if I was wearing the chipmixer signature as the US government and its laws will basically allow advertisers/celebrities to be charged in a court of law for advertising a service.

I do not know, I am not a lawyer, but I do not think that there is an explicit law that makes mixers illegal, and therefore how will you hold accountable someone who promoted the site before it was seized.
The file listing the details of the case contained more than 60 pages and did not mention at any thing about chipmixer signature.

Would theymos have to comply if the goverment steps in and asks for IPs of all who wore a ?

They don't need to, the number of people who visit Speedsheet periodically will narrow their search.
It is not the first case that Bitcoin Mixer has been seized and none of the participants in the signature campaign have been charged