How wide reaching can the consequences of Chipmixer money laundering be?

[joker_josue]

I doubt this will affect regular users but there is a possibility they could try to shut down this forum. There is already a similar precedent when Deep Dot Web was seized by the FBI. It would be an overreach for them to go this route but if they really wanted to shut down BitcoinTalk this would be their best opportunity. As far as I'm aware Chipmixer didn't advertise anywhere else besides this forum.

I never contemplated a scenario before where this forum could be viewed as a problem by any governmental agency but now that you mention it, would it really be a surprise if they seized the domain and shut down the forum?

This is highly unlikely. The forum was just a means of communication used by ChipMixer, nothing more.
Furthermore, the forum administration has no connection to ChipMixer.

The worst that could happen (if it hasn't happened yet), is for the authorities to request information about the user who allegedly represented ChipMixer here on the forum.

[1714603901]

1714603901

[1714603901]

1714603901

[dragonvslinux]

The worst that could happen (if it hasn't happened yet), is for the authorities to request information about the user who allegedly represented ChipMixer here on the forum.

I referenced this on previous page that authorities didn't publish that they requested information from bitcointalk, despite making a lot of references. At least, they didn't publish any evidence from any requests that is.

a particularly strange part of the court documents highlights how far the reach of warrants to different services extended (or records provided) by the likes of; Google, Yahoo, Protonmail, Paypal, Binance, Dropbox, Apple, LinkedIn,, Twitter, Reddit, Hetzner, DigitalOcean... basically everyone and anything to do with the inveestigation, but bitcointalk wasn't referenced as included?

So they might well of done so (and probably did imo), but if the IPs were from VPN or otherwise obscured (which is very likely) then they didn't publish the results as part of investigation...

[JollyGood]

Oh yeah, there was such a rumor going around. I remember that!

But then again, the conspiracy theorists will just make up another conspiracy. For example, the newest conspiracy could be that the honey pot was discovered or they decided it was not viable anymore and it got shut down. And the entire seizure is just the FBI's excuse to make it look like it was never a honey pot.

Honestly, I did not really believe the first conspiracy theory so I am not going to believe any subsequent theories.

That rumour was spread by a small number of conspiracy theorists, I doubted it then along with many others. I still do not believe Chipmixer was a honeypot.

There's been a lot of discussion about Bitcointalk's liability in the case of Chipmixer there's already a ruling on this and so far it is not yet reformed so we can say that it still applies to this case
I would like to cite

Section 230 of a section of Title 47 of the United States Code that was enacted as part of the Communications Decency Act of 1996, it says Section 230(c)(1) provides immunity from liability for providers and users of an "interactive computer service" who publish information provided by third-party users:

Section 230 was developed in response to a pair of lawsuits against online discussion platforms in the early 1990s that resulted in different interpretations of whether the service providers should be treated as publishers or, alternatively, as distributors of content created by their users

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_230

Eliminating this section 230 will reshape the internet and this is the same defense Facebook and other social media platforms uses to defend themselves against the attack and their liability for the content their users uploaded.

I am not a legal expert but it really would be something strange if they tried to shut the forum down because the defence used by the websites you listed should suffice.

The worst that could happen (if it hasn't happened yet), is for the authorities to request information about the user who allegedly represented ChipMixer here on the forum.

I hope you are right. They will probably ask or already have asked for information related to the Chipmixer account and hopefully that will be the end as far as them keeping this forum in mind is concerned.

[Findingnemo]

I didn't aware of this seize of Chipmixer until I stumble on this thread so thanks OP for this thread, DarkStar_ said he doesn't have any contact with Chipmixer in the campaign thread and also now its marked as ended so this is the end of bitcoin mixing services? Many reputed sites were took down by government for knowingly or unknowingly mixing the coins used for illicit purposes so the same goes for Chipmixer as well?

I don't think this will not affect the campaign participants in anyway because the campaign rewards is negligible compared to the amount we are talking related to Chipmixer so the main investigation will be targeted towards huge amounts mixed using the platform.

[Husires]

I referenced this on previous page that authorities didn't publish that they requested information from bitcointalk, despite making a lot of references. At least, they didn't publish any evidence from any requests that is.

Maybe because the information that will be presented is not useful? The forum collects basic information such as IP addresses and other simple data that does not lead to a general failure to reveal identity, so I do not think that they are looking for such information, but they always go to email service providers, Apple and Google.

More data they will get from members like @DarkStar_ or at least they may try to get it.

Strangely enough, no data was reported from Proton's email, although it was the main email that the team used.

[Saisher]

Topics about Bitcointalk connection to Chipmixer should end with this law

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_230

We are all speculating on something that is unlikely to happen when there is already a defense on the liability of any online platforms when it comes to third-party or user content unless this section 230 is repealed or taken down, online platform's liability is zero


Check out this video so we can understand this section 230 which created the internet into what it is today and stop dragging Bitcointalk to the Chipmixer mess.

Section 230: An Explanation of 'the Internet's Favorite Law'

[dragonvslinux]

I didn't aware of this seize of Chipmixer until I stumble on this thread so thanks OP for this thread, DarkStar_ said he doesn't have any contact with Chipmixer in the campaign thread and also now its marked as ended so this is the end of bitcoin mixing services? Many reputed sites were took down by government for knowingly or unknowingly mixing the coins used for illicit purposes so the same goes for Chipmixer as well?

No, this isn't the end of mixing services. It will never be the end, whether deemed legal or illegal. Where one is taken down others will grow in it's place, likely Sinbad and Yo!Mix this time around.

I referenced this on previous page that authorities didn't publish that they requested information from bitcointalk, despite making a lot of references. At least, they didn't publish any evidence from any requests that is.

Maybe because the information that will be presented is not useful?

Indeed, this is the most likely reasoning that the information wasn't useful, rather than it wasn't requested in the first place imo.

The forum collects basic information such as IP addresses and other simple data that does not lead to a general failure to reveal identity, so I do not think that they are looking for such information, but they always go to email service providers, Apple and Google.

Bare in mind their entire investigation was based on IP and email addresses, as they used this to make connections to exchange/paypal accounts. So they wouldn't be requesting this information expecting to get a name and address, but more so in order to investigate that data and see where else it's used. Specifically a service that is connected to bank accounts or requests KYC, which is what they did.

Strangely enough, no data was reported from Proton's email, although it was the main email that the team used.

There was the following data, just not the messages it seems (as uses end-to-end encryption if not mistake):

An international records request for the chipmixer@protonmail.com account revealed there were two accounts linked to the email address chipmixer@protonmail.com: jhallindia@protonmail.com and max.archdall@protonmail.com.

[DaveF]

This could end up being very messy for a lot of members in the forum that participated in their signature campaigns if the FBI and US justice department decide to force forum members to repay all the money they received from Chipmixer as signature campaign income.

How do those that participated in the Chipmixer signature campaign feel about this? Do you think you will be asked to repay all the money you received for promoting Chipmixer since the FBI and other international agencies have attributed them to money laundering?

Since a lot perhaps most people are not under FBI jurisdiction I don't think any are worried.
As for paying back, there have been other mixers seized and nothing happened to the people wearing those sigs.
There have been scam ICO / IEO and everything else shut down by authorities and nothing happened to the people wearing those sigs.
There have been cases of casinos shut down by authorities and nothing happened to the people wearing those sigs.

And so on.

-Dave

[JollyGood]

I didn't aware of this seize of Chipmixer until I stumble on this thread so thanks OP for this thread

Welcome 

Maybe because the information that will be presented is not useful? The forum collects basic information such as IP addresses and other simple data that does not lead to a general failure to reveal identity, so I do not think that they are looking for such information, but they always go to email service providers, Apple and Google.

More data they will get from members like @DarkStar_ or at least they may try to get it.

Strangely enough, no data was reported from Proton's email, although it was the main email that the team used.

They have already published their case against the owner/operator of Chipmixer therefore they probably will not be seeking to get any more information to strengthen their case against him.

Topics about Bitcointalk connection to Chipmixer should end with this law

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_230

I hope that settles that then. Others in the forum have quoted the same section of that law, I hope that settles the concerns.

As for paying back, there have been other mixers seized and nothing happened to the people wearing those sigs.
There have been scam ICO / IEO and everything else shut down by authorities and nothing happened to the people wearing those sigs.
There have been cases of casinos shut down by authorities and nothing happened to the people wearing those sigs.

And so on.

You are right those casinos and ICO/STO/IEO scams that made anonymous people behind them overnight multi-millionaires, how many of them were ever brought to appear in Courts to face justice?

If the general consensus in the forum is one of calm for those that participated in the signature campaign then that is precisely what is needed at this time. You are right, there has never been a case of any authorities asking signature campaign participants to repay monies. I hope the authorities do not start trying to do it now as a deterrent to stop people promoting mixers.

[coin-investor]

You are right, there has never been a case of any authorities asking signature campaign participants to repay monies. I hope the authorities do not start trying to do it now as a deterrent to stop people promoting mixers.

There should be a mechanism in law for them to do that, authorities will go for the platform and never on a third-party platform or person, for lack of law that will hold liable those who promote mixers.

Physical laws and internet laws are very much different when it comes to marketing and advertising they cannot use the physical laws to apply on internet issues.

[yahoo62278]

I don't know if anyone advertising chipmixer or any other mixer will now or ever face any penalties, but I will say that laws change. Check out these 2 stories involving FTX fiasco.

https://cryptopotato.com/ftx-youtube-influencers-slammed-with-class-action-lawsuit/

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/ftx-crypto-investors-sue-founder-sam-bankman-fried-celebrity-promoters-rcna57453

I'm sure none of these influencers/celebrities knew they were advertising what turned out to be a scam, but here they are facing possible legal issues.

[examplens]

As for paying back, there have been other mixers seized and nothing happened to the people wearing those sigs.
There have been scam ICO / IEO and everything else shut down by authorities and nothing happened to the people wearing those sigs.
There have been cases of casinos shut down by authorities and nothing happened to the people wearing those sigs.

And so on.

You are right those casinos and ICO/STO/IEO scams that made anonymous people behind them overnight multi-millionaires, how many of them were ever brought to appear in Courts to face justice?

If the general consensus in the forum is one of calm for those that participated in the signature campaign then that is precisely what is needed at this time. You are right, there has never been a case of any authorities asking signature campaign participants to repay monies. I hope the authorities do not start trying to do it now as a deterrent to stop people promoting mixers.

I wonder, if the Chipmixer signature campaign paid $70-$100 a week like the others, would there be so much concern and drama about the investigation of its participants or even about the forum itself?

I have shared the link to their page on FB and Twitter a couple of times, should I be worried?

[aioc]

I don't know if anyone advertising chipmixer or any other mixer will now or ever face any penalties, but I will say that laws change. Check out these 2 stories involving FTX fiasco.

https://cryptopotato.com/ftx-youtube-influencers-slammed-with-class-action-lawsuit/

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/ftx-crypto-investors-sue-founder-sam-bankman-fried-celebrity-promoters-rcna57453

I'm sure none of these influencers/celebrities knew they were advertising what turned out to be a scam, but here they are facing possible legal issues.

Anyone can file a suit but it's up to the court to decide if it's correct to include these promoters in the criminal suit against FTX, this is an investment scam, not an advertising-related platform and content issue it doesn't connect, section 230 is still good based on what I research on Chipmixer issue on Bitcointalk until repealed if they repeal it I don't think it will retroactive.
Promoters are still safe when it comes to platform and content but probably not when it comes to promotion and investment issues.

[Lucius]

I wonder, if the Chipmixer signature campaign paid $70-$100 a week like the others, would there be so much concern and drama about the investigation of its participants or even about the forum itself?

The same forum members who, for some reason, were the loudest in demanding a pay rate reduction in the CM campaign, are now opening the champagne and celebrating what happened, while widely speculating that everyone who participated in the campaign will be identified and convicted. Human malice has no limits, and if the forum is taken over, maybe some of them will be the main witnesses in the prosecution of "criminals".

I have shared the link to their page on FB and Twitter a couple of times, should I be worried?

Of course, everyone who participated in any way, even mentioned CM in any context, will be held responsible. Maybe even those who gave merits to members of the campaign for their good posts, because that is also a form of support

[JollyGood]

This was the scenario I found somewhat concerning because even though I did not participate in the Chipmixer signature campaign and I do not feel concern for anybody specific that promoted them, I feel a little concerned in general about the situation if the authorities try to use the Chipmixer incident to start a whole new trend and set a new precedent.

I don't know if anyone advertising chipmixer or any other mixer will now or ever face any penalties, but I will say that laws change. Check out these 2 stories involving FTX fiasco.

https://cryptopotato.com/ftx-youtube-influencers-slammed-with-class-action-lawsuit/

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/ftx-crypto-investors-sue-founder-sam-bankman-fried-celebrity-promoters-rcna57453

I'm sure none of these influencers/celebrities knew they were advertising what turned out to be a scam, but here they are facing possible legal issues.

[ChiBitCTy]

The FBI isn’t going to come after signature wearers. They don’t have the time or resources first off. Secondly, those who advertised for CM didn’t have access to internal protocols, so how could they have known. The FBI went after the major promoters of bitconnect, but didn’t attempt to contact anyone underneath them promoting the obvious ponzi. They want those in charge, who were in the know.

In the collectibles world here on the forum there’s been an attempt to contact the FBI and other regulatory bodies over essentially theft by a coin maker that is likely well over a million dollars  ..we’ve been turned away and sent on a wild goose chase left and right to try and get some legal body to just listen to what’s going on. If it’s that hard to get someone to investigate a million dollars + in fraud, does anyone really think they’ll go after CM signature wearers who weren’t aware they were promoting an illegal business.

According to news outlets, German authorities seized servers and crypto worth $46 million. US authorities have accused Chipmixer of laundering over $3 billion since 2017. If international authorities will try to seize all funds related to Chipmixer as they are deemed to be illicit, then it is possible that an attempt could be made by authorities to retrieve all the funds that have been paid out as signature campaign fees as they have effectively promoted/advertised the service.

They should first go after Google for receiving money for scam advertising (which happens on a large scale, every single day).

This could end up being very messy for a lot of members in the forum that participated in their signature campaigns if the FBI and US justice department decide to force forum members to repay all the money they received from Chipmixer as signature campaign income.

Eh... seems like a waste of time. Not everyone is from the US, and I don't think mixers by themselves are illegal.

The paper on ChipMixer by the DoJ implies that their crimes were:

1. money laundering;
2. operating an unlicensed money-transmitting business;
3. identity theft.

Would CM be hunted if they specifically analyzed the coins received before mixing them? Like, imagine them contacting Chain analysis and asking if the coins a user sent came from a DNM, and if so, prompting the user for his KYC documents... (crime 1)

Would they be hunted if they disallowed US customers and enforced that by also taking KYC documents (thus not being an "unlicensed money-transmitting business" in the US?) (crime 2)

And last, if ChipMixer didn't register his PayPal accounts with bought/stolen documents? (crime 3)

https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1574581/download

I Remember when bitconnect ads were all over YouTube…the most obvious ponzi in a long time.  Problem is google is more powerful than the FBI, as the US allows for massive corps to fund political campaigns all they want , which means politicians are mostly just bought puppets, who can (and do) tell the FBI to leave certain companies alone. It’s the biggest joke in the US governmental system that this is still allowed.

[T3PR00T]

OP, it sounds like the topic is about a service and possible outcome for the service promoters. Does it deserve to be in the reputation?

You are not discussing about DT/none DT members, their reputation, nothing related to forum member reputation then why it's in this board.

I think moderators should move it to service discussion section.

[BitcoinGirl.Club]

The same forum members who, for some reason, were the loudest in demanding a pay rate reduction in the CM campaign, are now opening the champagne and celebrating what happened

It's jealously, envy, bitterness mouth tasting. A lot of people out there drives by their failure than achievements. They lack skills but works hard eventually only working hard is not taking you to the top. Skill and hard-work along with other success factor makes a man to achieve their desire. Well obviously your ethics should be not harming others.

Don't forget there are these other type of people. They seek opportunity to stay with the trend and allow themselves to get some attention.

[JollyGood]

A very well articulated and thought out post. I am surprised the FBI and/or any other agency showed zero interest when members from the forum were it seems lining up to inform them of theft related to sums around $1 million.

I understand the point about Bitconnect advertising but when you look at how yahoo62278 put forward another perspective it might or might not have implications. Time will tell I suppose. This is the issue of the way and manner in which the authorities seem to implement their use of the law, the lack of consistency leads to misunderstandings.

The FBI isn’t going to come after signature wearers. They don’t have the time or resources first off. Secondly, those who advertised for CM didn’t have access to internal protocols, so how could they have known. The FBI went after the major promoters of bitconnect, but didn’t attempt to contact anyone underneath them promoting the obvious ponzi. They want those in charge, who were in the know.

In the collectibles world here on the forum there’s been an attempt to contact the FBI and other regulatory bodies over essentially theft by a coin maker that is likely well over a million dollars  ..we’ve been turned away and sent on a wild goose chase left and right to try and get some legal body to just listen to what’s going on. If it’s that hard to get someone to investigate a million dollars + in fraud, does anyone really think they’ll go after CM signature wearers who weren’t aware they were promoting an illegal business.

I Remember when bitconnect ads were all over YouTube…the most obvious ponzi in a long time.  Problem is google is more powerful than the FBI, as the US allows for massive corps to fund political campaigns all they want , which means politicians are mostly just bought puppets, who can (and do) tell the FBI to leave certain companies alone. It’s the biggest joke in the US governmental system that this is still allowed.

[karmamiu]

The FBI isn’t going to come after signature wearers. They don’t have the time or resources first off. Secondly, those who advertised for CM didn’t have access to internal protocols, so how could they have known. The FBI went after the major promoters of bitconnect, but didn’t attempt to contact anyone underneath them promoting the obvious ponzi. They want those in charge, who were in the know.

In the collectibles world here on the forum there’s been an attempt to contact the FBI and other regulatory bodies over essentially theft by a coin maker that is likely well over a million dollars  ..we’ve been turned away and sent on a wild goose chase left and right to try and get some legal body to just listen to what’s going on. If it’s that hard to get someone to investigate a million dollars + in fraud, does anyone really think they’ll go after CM signature wearers who weren’t aware they were promoting an illegal business.

According to news outlets, German authorities seized servers and crypto worth $46 million. US authorities have accused Chipmixer of laundering over $3 billion since 2017. If international authorities will try to seize all funds related to Chipmixer as they are deemed to be illicit, then it is possible that an attempt could be made by authorities to retrieve all the funds that have been paid out as signature campaign fees as they have effectively promoted/advertised the service.

They should first go after Google for receiving money for scam advertising (which happens on a large scale, every single day).

This could end up being very messy for a lot of members in the forum that participated in their signature campaigns if the FBI and US justice department decide to force forum members to repay all the money they received from Chipmixer as signature campaign income.

Eh... seems like a waste of time. Not everyone is from the US, and I don't think mixers by themselves are illegal.

The paper on ChipMixer by the DoJ implies that their crimes were:

1. money laundering;
2. operating an unlicensed money-transmitting business;
3. identity theft.

Would CM be hunted if they specifically analyzed the coins received before mixing them? Like, imagine them contacting Chain analysis and asking if the coins a user sent came from a DNM, and if so, prompting the user for his KYC documents... (crime 1)

Would they be hunted if they disallowed US customers and enforced that by also taking KYC documents (thus not being an "unlicensed money-transmitting business" in the US?) (crime 2)

And last, if ChipMixer didn't register his PayPal accounts with bought/stolen documents? (crime 3)

https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1574581/download

I Remember when bitconnect ads were all over YouTube…the most obvious ponzi in a long time.  Problem is google is more powerful than the FBI, as the US allows for massive corps to fund political campaigns all they want , which means politicians are mostly just bought puppets, who can (and do) tell the FBI to leave certain companies alone. It’s the biggest joke in the US governmental system that this is still allowed.

True!! There is a huge difference between unknowingly promoting an illegal campaign which is the case on chipmixer. Few years ago this is one of my dream to be part of this successful and one of the longest running campaigns in this forum. Though I'm sadden by the recent news, it is not reasonable for FBI to pursue signature wearers and spend lots of resources doing that. Campaign promoters are getting paid to promote while following the external rule imposed on this forum, it's not as if they are directly working on the mixer. Besides if the FBI still wants to pursue this matter, it would seem to look like they are just fishing the small fishes just to prove they have the authority over, while proving nothing on the case.