LE stealing our BTC because we used ChipMixer for our privacy. What can we do ?

[crewdede]

LE made an exit-scam , most likely that website was build and maintained by them anyway . Now they got all  BTC from the private keys generate on ChipMixer website, even the ones that were given to us, so it was our property not on CM website. How can we get it back? Isn't this legal? How can we know they will not follow now our BTC  to the exchanges we sent them to , and ask for money seizure, confiscation and so on ? Like, why not? they can easy ask for 1000 transactions who went to circle, coinbase, to be taken away . How many people would afford a plane ticket to Germany and hire a lawyer? 

[crewdede]

really?  nobody cares?

[odolvlobo]

You can sue the U.S. government to get them back, but you must prove that your coins weren't used illegally.

Also, if you used ChipMixer to send coins to a US. exchange, your account is definitely at a high risk of being seized, given the routine abuse of civil forfeiture laws by U.S. law enforcement.

[NotATether]

Who's "LE"?

[LoyceV]

Who's "LE"?

My guess: Law Enforcement.

[NotATether]

Who's "LE"?

My guess: Law Enforcement.

Something about this though:

How can we know they will not follow now our BTC  to the exchanges we sent them to , and ask for money seizure, confiscation and so on ?

It is a question more related to the exchanges and their forensics software than law enforcement.

Once, a year ago, Chipmixer had some kind of beta testing going on, which was an opportunity for us to use the mixer. Of course, we got those coins back in the form of private keys.

My point being: Today I tracked down the BTC I received from that key, and I noticed it had since went through a couple of transactions, each with different UTXOs (thereby increasing the transaction depth that needs to be explored to find the original chipmixer UTXO) until finally it went into an outgoing transaction with no change.

I'm pretty sure LE is capable of analyzing the 7 TB of seized data, and notify chain analysis companies about the wallets, which they can then label - and taint.

Of course, chain analysis tools cost money, and while LE will probably get them for free or using their massive budget, exchanges are probably less likely to splash 6 to 7 figures a year on chain analysis services. Especially seeing the spectacular nature some of these exchanges have failed (FTX), they probably used entry-level screening with less depth just to say they were compliant with AML.

Whereas you have a public company such as Coinbase who can probably afford the maximum possible screening easily.

So it really depends on the exchange you use. Definitely avoid Coinbase though (as you normally would). Since there's no way to know the transaction depth they use for each of the addresses they analyze - at different tiers of their offerings - you should be safe using non-US exchanges to cash out those chips, then deposit them with some other exchange. As it has been said elsewhere, there're not interested in going after small fish. Only killer whales.

Which means that they'll probably freeze that Minh guy's exchange accounts - and yours too, if you have the misfortune of using an exchange that over-zealously reports everything to the FBI - but they won't go through pains to identify you specifically just because you have received a Chipmixer chip. Especially if the exchange doesn't share that kind of data about you.


Other things that might help:

- When paying for services online, pay using the Chipmixer UTXOs first (some wallets like Electrum allow you to select specific UTXOs to spend) to reduce the value of "liability chips" you posess.
- Don't use wallets that send change to receiving addresses, or the same address as others. Mostly mobile wallets do this. You don't want to potentially contaminate the rest of your money.
- Don't ever send chips directly to an exchange.


Anyway, I checked using WalletExplorer again, and it seems like it can neither cluster change addresses from Electrum, nor addresses part of the entire chipmixer operation. So at least this removes the majority of internet sleuths from the equation.

[Husires]

Now they got all  BTC from the private keys generate on ChipMixer website, even the ones that were given to us, so it was our property not on CM website. How can we get it back? Isn't this legal?

If you think this is illegal then ask the court that the government took your money from an unlicensed money service and let the law take its course.
Unfortunately, this service is illegal, and therefore the transactions that were conducted are not covered by the law, which makes any legal action difficult.
I do not know what the laws are in the United States, but if you are in a house and this house will be used for illegal purposes and it is your property, then the kingdom has the right to confiscate this property to the state.

[BenCodie]

I am sorry to hear about your loss. The whole situation is extremely unfortunate. Unfortunately "LE" around the world does not care for privacy. In fact, they put financial privacy on the same scale as money laundering. If you lost coins in CM, the best lesson you can take is that you should not trust a centralized service. This is a good example that centralized services causing loss for users is not always an exchange. If I were you, I would consider the coins to be gone forever. Even if you were able to make a sound case for your using the service for privacy, it would be quite a hard and expensive battle to win in court. I'm not saying that you should not fight, but it will be a tough one.

[crewdede]

Unfortunately "LE" around the world does not care for privacy. In fact, they put financial privacy on the same scale as money laundering. If you lost coins in CM, the best lesson you can take is that you should not trust a centralized service.

Sure. But a lot of honest people used ChipMixer also. They should have confiscated only the keys linked to fraud, carding,  ransom attacks. Instead, they confiscated all money. And who knows... maybe they will send letters to Coinbase ,etc ... to return a lot of coins, or the $$$ equivalent, or all the accounts money! why not? most people will not afford a lawyer, or wait for years.
then they come to press and say how brave and smart they are, that they seized millions of dollars from frauds, etc.

[Hispo]

Unfortunately, I don't think there is much that can be done, at least you alone as an individual.
I am not sure whether there is a precedent of a case like this one, but if there is no favorable precedent or any at all, one of the only chances I see, would be for the affected people to get together and coordinate a lawsuit in the United States with one of the victims who would live over there.

Of course, that would imply that you all need to be sure there are not criminals involved in the class action lawsuit and some crowdfund among you all would be needed to hire an attorney.

Is there someone from USA who could give us some insight on the options these people have?  

[Aanuoluwatofunmi]

Regarding chipmixer site that was down, oot had been going on but just for the new people that may wanted to use the offer of mixing service for their transactions, we have many others still working perfectly as expected and if you take a look on their security and privacy policy, this will gives you more insight on how secured your privacy is kept with them, but for in case of an attack, this cannot be guaranteed because hackers can go at any length to tarnish a reputation

[Hydrogen]

really?  nobody cares?

This is an old topic dating back to the US war on terror and patriot act.

It falls under a heading of: warrantless search and seizure.

Which most supported, believing it would only be used to fight terrorism.

Today it is used for many other things.

There was a recent case where a US soldier had his life savings seized for no justifiable reason or probable cause:

Watch Cops Seize Combat Vet's Life Savings [RARE FOOTAGE]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkeS_0NQUZs

There are law firms which handle cases like this(as mentioned in the youtube clip above).

Although in the case of digital assets, it could be much harder to have them returned.

[BenCodie]

Unfortunately "LE" around the world does not care for privacy. In fact, they put financial privacy on the same scale as money laundering. If you lost coins in CM, the best lesson you can take is that you should not trust a centralized service.

Sure. But a lot of honest people used ChipMixer also. They should have confiscated only the keys linked to fraud, carding,  ransom attacks. Instead, they confiscated all money. And who knows... maybe they will send letters to Coinbase ,etc ... to return a lot of coins, or the $$$ equivalent, or all the accounts money! why not? most people will not afford a lawyer, or wait for years.
then they come to press and say how brave and smart they are, that they seized millions of dollars from frauds, etc.

I don't think that anyone honest should have anything to worry about if their coins are already out. In an ideal world, only direct evidence of major crimes linking coins to the things that you and the media have mentioned (fraud, ransomware, drugs, etc) would be the focus of the authorities who took chipmixer down. I doubt exchanges will ask users to return coins or anything like that. Similarly, I doubt that anyone who was honestly using the service will get anything back from these agencies because in their eyes, privacy is on the same page as fraud/laundering and therefore no one deserves their coins back.

[stompix]

LE made an exit-scam , most likely that website was build and maintained by them anyway .

Common, that's one of the most ridiculous conspiracies ever, if they would have wanted to run with people's coins they could have waited for far better times and would have left this running for weeks with reimbursing chips not just grabbed 2 000  BTC and that's all.
That would have not even covered the cost they had with it running and paying all those law enforcement to it carry out.

How many people would afford a plane ticket to Germany and hire a lawyer?

First I don't know for sure if it was German police that seized the coins, but if indeed it was them you don't have to fly a plane there to file a case for assets recovery if you're a foreign citizen. Interestingly enough this case falls in the same category as demands of the seizure of stolen assets since the money (coins) seized here are have yet to be classified as the proceeds of a crime.

Instead, they confiscated all money..

Again, seized not confiscated.
Law enforcement can only seize money, only a judicial act can confiscate permanently that amount when a court gives a final sentence on it.
Theoretically, at least, you have time till that to file your own request with them till they give a final verdict on it.

I do not know what the laws are in the United States, but if you are in a house and this house will be used for illegal purposes and it is your property, then the kingdom has the right to confiscate this property to the state.

No, it's not like that in this case.
To keep the house analogy is like the owner renting it to five families, one room each and because 2 of them are removed in drug dealing they grab all the stuff from all the rooms and seize everything, a thing that will never finish like that in court.

[CryptSafe]

Unfortunately "LE" around the world does not care for privacy. In fact, they put financial privacy on the same scale as money laundering. If you lost coins in CM, the best lesson you can take is that you should not trust a centralized service.

Sure. But a lot of honest people used ChipMixer also. They should have confiscated only the keys linked to fraud, carding,  ransom attacks. Instead, they confiscated all money. And who knows... maybe they will send letters to Coinbase ,etc ... to return a lot of coins, or the $$$ equivalent, or all the accounts money! why not? most people will not afford a lawyer, or wait for years.
then they come to press and say how brave and smart they are, that they seized millions of dollars from frauds, etc.

The LEs are always at it. They will go to any extent to frustrate people all in the name of tracking illegal transactions when in the real sense most transactions conducted on chipmixers are not illegal but for the sake of privacy, the users made such steps so as not to reveal their identities so that as to retain being anonymous. It is sad that even the government too are sometimes using it to smare their perceived opposition since they got knowledge about their financial activities. I mostly pitty those under the raiders of the LE because they are always the target of this act from them but I believe if you can get a good lawyer, you can sue the government over any such act and recover your money from them.

[LoyceV]

There was a recent case where a US soldier had his life savings seized for no justifiable reason or probable cause:

Watch Cops Seize Combat Vet's Life Savings [RARE FOOTAGE]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkeS_0NQUZs

The main problem I see here is that the law enforcement agency gets a (large) share of the money that gets confiscated. That makes it almost a commercial enterprise, and that's the part to change.

If, here, I'd be stopped carrying €100,000 in cash, I'd have some questions to answer too. But as far as I know the local police doesn't financially benefit from it, which is a good thing.

There are law firms which handle cases like this(as mentioned in the youtube clip above).

Although in the case of digital assets, it could be much harder to have them returned.

It's going to be an interesting case for sure.

I've seen several posts saying they shouldn't have seized everything, but that's not really an option. Chances are someone else still has the private keys, and once they move it, it's too late to seize it.

[hZti]

Again a perfect topic to post: NotYourKeysNotYourCoins.org. I dont want to make fun about anyone, but how long will it take till people realize that you can not store your coins on 3rd party services?
I have lost large amounts of bitcoins also to exchanges being closed, but at least I learnt my lesson. If I see topics like this again, I see many people that are involved in bitcoin a lot and still dont seem to follow this one simple rule.

[woez]

The situation you describe is unfortunate and highlights the risks associated with using online platforms for financial transactions, particularly those involving cryptocurrencies. It is important to note that using ChipMixer or any other online platform to transact cryptocurrency carries inherent risks.

My view is that while it may be difficult to recover lost and exited assets, it is imperative to take proactive steps to protect and secure cryptocurrency holdings.
As for the legality of the situation, it will depend on the particular circumstances and jurisdiction. It may be helpful to consult with an attorney or legal expert to explore potential options for assistance.

[Faisal2202]

Snip

I think you totally change the context of seizing ChipMixer. Like the way you said LE stole your money. Instead CM was seized because it was involved in illegal activities like money laundering.  And regarding to your money, i can say maybe if you find a way to prove your assets as legal ones and prove them that it was not involved in money laundering, like i am not a financial expert or lawyer but i think if you successfully prove them that your money was totally legit and you paid taxes then something could be done.

But this is so unlikely to be happen because btc is the first danger to those LE's banking systems. So why would they help you in getting your money back. I can say, remaining off the radar might save you bucks because i do not think mixer got any mechanism to prove from where those transactions are coming like the exact one and involvement of you could cause your more harm. (Just a tip nothing more).

[crewdede]

Snip

I think you totally change the context of seizing ChipMixer. Like the way you said LE stole your money. Instead CM was seized because it was involved in illegal activities like money laundering.  And regarding to your money, i can say maybe if you find a way to prove your assets as legal ones and prove them that it was not involved in money laundering, like i am not a financial expert or lawyer but i think if you successfully prove them that your money was totally legit and you paid taxes then something could be done.

But this is so unlikely to be happen because btc is the first danger to those LE's banking systems. So why would they help you in getting your money back. I can say, remaining off the radar might save you bucks because i do not think mixer got any mechanism to prove from where those transactions are coming like the exact one and involvement of you could cause your more harm. (Just a tip nothing more).

Yes, they stolen it. They will now go after more coins, to steal it, because most people can't afford lawyers. And because most laywers are stupid, and because most judges they just want to go home, not to understand something