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Author Topic: Why was Ordinal NFTs created?  (Read 1206 times)
philipma1957
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May 10, 2023, 05:40:33 PM
 #81


Only reason you miners like it is your getting dirty rich off the fees.
hard to argue with that.

Quote
Terrible for Bitcoin as a whole and has put people off using it for transactions.
i mean yeah that's definitely true. my first choice for sending money would not be using bitcoin these last few months, that's for sure. and i don't see that changing anytime soon. have to use other ways. probably forever.  Angry





As a miner I am not getting dirty rich off the fees.

btc was 31k viabtc paid 97% back to miners. net is   30.07k

btc is 27.5k viabtc is paying 130% back to miners. 35.75k

so  if I made $30.07 a day now I make $35.75 a day

not dirty rich.

Have to ride this out. btc hodl vs btc spam

who wins?

miners only win if price rises with fees.

hodlers only win if price rises while they hold

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larry_vw_1955
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May 11, 2023, 02:20:34 AM
 #82


miners only win if price rises with fees.

hodlers only win if price rises while they hold

if everyone wins when price goes up then price would never go down so who wins when price goes down?  Shocked
philipma1957
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May 11, 2023, 03:26:32 AM
 #83


miners only win if price rises with fees.

hodlers only win if price rises while they hold

if everyone wins when price goes up then price would never go down so who wins when price goes down?  Shocked

Well depends my coins that i mined and held were 31k

As I was mining at that price my pool paid at 97% so like I said new coin was worth 30.4 due to fees.


price dropped to 27.5

my pool paid at 130% so those coins mined  were like 35k

so depending on how many coins I mined and held this crazy attack made me money on new mining and lost me money on the older held coins.

I likely (certainly) lost on the deal as I hodl more btc than I earned this last 10 days.

but I know miners that are almost all cash zero close to zero hodl

this week made them money even with coin price dropping.

It seems to be ending fees are lower nower.

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mailsats
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May 11, 2023, 03:46:05 AM
 #84


Quote

if everyone wins when price goes up then price would never go down so who wins when price goes down?  Shocked

People shorting Bitcoin
People who make money of ordinals
Govt and Banks who want to see Bitcoin fail so they can hock their CBDCs
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May 11, 2023, 06:32:14 AM
Merited by vapourminer (1)
 #85

Basically, there seems to be a technique to inscribe a satoshi you don't own, with some 0-value input/output sorcery.
Well they never inscribed satoshis to begin with using the Ordinals Attack. They are saying it that way to make the attack look like a fancy protocol. Tongue

(Technically I haven't understood it fully, others may provide an ELI5).
In consensus rules the only thing about values that is checked is that the sum of outputs is not bigger than sum of inputs. This is why you can send 0 satoshis and spend 0 satoshi outputs. It is also not a new thing. Here is the oldest transaction that did this from 2012:
https://blockchair.com/bitcoin/transaction/3a5e0977cc64e601490a761d83a4ea5be3cd03b0ffb73f5fe8be6507539be76c
These transactions are non-standard and majority of nodes won't relay them.

The problem is if you want to ignore these satoshis you have to modify inscription numbers, and then lots of them will be "off".
The fix is actually trivial since it is a centralized service and modifying it with a workaround or a way to ignore this transaction or anything like it is very easy.

yeah, here is casey's exact statement:

“However, fixing the bug by making [the Ordinals protocol] ignore this inscription would change inscription numbers after the curious transaction. I'm honestly not sure what to do!” added Rodarmor soon after the issue was found.

As I've said before, those who created this attack are very incompetent which has been clear from day one from the way they are abusing the exploit in Taproot scripts.

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NotATether
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May 11, 2023, 09:09:37 AM
Merited by vapourminer (1)
 #86

As a miner I am not getting dirty rich off the fees.

btc was 31k viabtc paid 97% back to miners. net is   30.07k

btc is 27.5k viabtc is paying 130% back to miners. 35.75k

so  if I made $30.07 a day now I make $35.75 a day

not dirty rich.

Have to ride this out. btc hodl vs btc spam

who wins?

miners only win if price rises with fees.

hodlers only win if price rises while they hold

I don't think BRC-20 transactions are going to last long even in the (likely) event that nobody decides to take an official action against them.

After all, it's still a meme coin, so it's subject to trends just like other memes.

Miners would surely benefit in the long run from assets being transferred on bitcoin, but only if they are placed on a protocol that allows for some kind of value/usefulness on the asset. BRC-20 is way too small to store anything useful.

So, for the question on what is the best way for miners to earn fees in the long run, if its not from transactions, it's going to be by using it to make "genuine certifications" for stuff in various industries.

For example, the fashion industry will probably pay big money to mint these things to stop counterfeits

Other kinds of brands that are obsessed with genuine stuff (like ISVs for their software or someone like Apple) would also want a certification for each serial number that can't be tampered with.

So I see an important use case that some new network on top of Bitcoin can provide for these businesses, and all the fees they pay will go to miners and whoever is operating the new network.

And most importantly: The tokens are private, as in, some random bloke on the internet cannot mint a particular kind of token because it will be secret to the business who owns the keys or whatever, for minting such tokens.

This basically kills hype as the assets cannot be traded, avoiding unsustainable fee increases that hurt users.

And I think people are starting to realize that the infrastructure is already in place for hosting that kind of thing. For example there is Taro/RGB (hosting this on Lightning however, is a bad idea and will not work for design reasons), so the basic design for a minted asset has already been made.

So with this constant stream of fees "royalties", you're basically making a similar amount of money that can offset block rewards loss, if such an asset becomes an industry standard (we are talking big like ISO and IEEE like that - of course the public perception on Bitcoin has to completely flip on its head before that becomes possible).



Now this is just an idea, and I'm not going to touch it with a 10 foot stick at the moment, because there are more important things that need to be done ATM (improve Lightning wallets gallery).

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goldkingcoiner
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May 11, 2023, 03:18:47 PM
 #87

Our options seem to be running out and it seems that Ordinals will not go away, even if we were to restore the pre-taproot transaction size limit or introduce some filter method.

So can we assume the very goal of Ordinals is to be a coordinated attack on Bitcoin, to push Bitcoin out of the competition or, more likely, push Bitcoin towards a POS consensus? If the second hypothesis is true, then who would have the most to gain? Who would have the most control over Bitcoin?

When ETH became POS we saw three addresses that had almost half of all Ethereum. That was a very dangerous moment of decentralization for ETH. But could this decentralization happen to Bitcoin?

I think that no matter how dire the situation becomes, we should steer clear of POS. It feels like a trap that we are being cornered into.

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d5000
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May 11, 2023, 08:41:42 PM
 #88

Thanks @pooya87 for the explanation. What I'm still missing is how the 0-input-0-output transactions can distort the inscription numbers. Maybe because there is not a single satoshi in the in/outputs, so the Satoshi order (according to the "Ordinal Theory") is not modified, but it is assigned an inscription number anyway?

I also don't think it's correct to describe ord as a "centralized" system - it's simply a software which assigns the ordinals to satoshis in a particular way. I guess if Casey changes something, most will follow his changes, so it could be described as "de facto centralized". But you can still fork it.

So can we assume the very goal of Ordinals is to be a coordinated attack on Bitcoin, to push Bitcoin out of the competition or, more likely, push Bitcoin towards a POS consensus?
Sorry, I don't think that makes sense. What should be the advantage of PoS when dealing with Ordinals? Ordinals even benefits miners, so it re-assures the current PoW model.

In my opinion, we could describe it as an "attack", but only in the broadest sense: that some group is extracting money from it, for example a NFT trading company, or miners themselves. If it really was thought to "damage" Bitcoin then it's not a very intelligent way, as as I wrote several times, fads come and go, and once people develop alternatives or switch massively to LN/sidechains, the potential vulnerability lowers steadily.

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larry_vw_1955
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May 12, 2023, 12:44:04 AM
 #89


People shorting Bitcoin
you cant sell something you don't own. unless someone else owns it and lets you sell it but why would they let you do that?  Shocked because if they hand over their bitcoin to you and you sell it then they just lost their bitcoin.

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People who make money of ordinals
maybe but i'm not clear on how.

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Govt and Banks who want to see Bitcoin fail so they can hock their CBDCs
i'm not sure govt and banks are worried about what bitcoin does to the extent that it determines whether they introduce some digital stablecoin of their own. they're going to do that regardless. or not.
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May 12, 2023, 04:34:33 PM
Last edit: May 12, 2023, 06:48:51 PM by goldkingcoiner
 #90

~
Sorry, I don't think that makes sense. What should be the advantage of PoS when dealing with Ordinals? Ordinals even benefits miners, so it re-assures the current PoW model.

Just because the miners are benefiting does not mean this NFT/memecoin fad is good for Bitcoin. POS has nothing to do with ordinals but rather I am talking about POW being forced into a corner and people might start seeing the switch to POS as an easy option in order to decrease the congestion as well as the transaction fees (by upping the scalability of the blockchain.)

Take a look at what happened to Ethereum once the PoW started showing the weakness of congestion and ridiculously high transaction costs. That became the main argument for the switch to POS. But they sacrificed their decentralization for it. I am simply connecting the dots and seeing something similiar happening to Bitcoin, because of ordinals.

Sure, there might be a different solution, but nobody has proposed one yet. I just hope this is not what pushes Bitcoiners towards accepting POS.

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larry_vw_1955
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May 13, 2023, 02:03:43 AM
Merited by goldkingcoiner (1)
 #91


Sure, there might be a different solution, but nobody has proposed one yet. I just hope this is not what pushes Bitcoiners towards accepting POS.

if bitcoin ever went to POS then i think it's got bigger problems than ordinals. Shocked it wouldn't even be bitcoin anymore.
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