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Author Topic: Coinbase vs SEC  (Read 309 times)
Abiky (OP)
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May 05, 2023, 10:45:49 AM
 #21

...
So as US is trying to drive away Coinbase, they are making a bold move with this kind of offerings. So I guess sooner or later, maybe in the next year or so, they will be 100% out of the US jurisdiction and building somewhere else.

It could be agreed that US is really going anti crypto now with Binance, and maybe one day, they are falling behind the adoption of BTC.

Coinbase's move to launch an international exchange is a sign of warning that it will be leaving the US soon. It's a pity considering that Coinbase is one of the biggest (if not the biggest) crypto exchanges in the country. That would be a huge loss for America that's too hard to bear. If only Gary Gensler was removed from office, this madness would stop.

Either way, we cannot deny that the US is falling behind other countries in terms of crypto adoption. Europe is faring better than the US in this regard. Now China is considering getting back in the game by adopting crypto/Blockchain tech through Hong Kong. If major crypto companies move there, the US will be left behind in the dust. Sadly, US individuals will ultimately pay the price as they find it difficult (if not impossible) to get access to crypto using the USD. Let's hope the SEC changes its mind, and embraces crypto/Blockchain tech for the good of the industry. Just my opinion Smiley

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May 07, 2023, 07:27:14 AM
 #22

@Abiky. Similar to the news article that I have shared before, president Xi Jinping wants China to be the leader in both information and blockchain technology. We can be quite certain that they have a roadmap for this going to 2030 already.

It is not only adoption where America is losing. America is also losing their blockchain developers to other more welcome jurisdictions hehe.



The U.S. is losing its lead in blockchain developers

Crypto and blockchain technologies are the next wave of the Internet, with the potential to fundamentally change money, the financial system, and the Internet more broadly. That the U.S. is losing market share in blockchain software development highlights the need for the country to take action to preserve its preeminence in financial markets and related technologies.


Source https://www.developerreport.com/developer-report-geography

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May 09, 2023, 03:21:17 PM
 #23

@Abiky. Similar to the news article that I have shared before, president Xi Jinping wants China to be the leader in both information and blockchain technology. We can be quite certain that they have a roadmap for this going to 2030 already.

It is not only adoption where America is losing. America is also losing their blockchain developers to other more welcome jurisdictions hehe.



The U.S. is losing its lead in blockchain developers

Crypto and blockchain technologies are the next wave of the Internet, with the potential to fundamentally change money, the financial system, and the Internet more broadly. That the U.S. is losing market share in blockchain software development highlights the need for the country to take action to preserve its preeminence in financial markets and related technologies.


Source https://www.developerreport.com/developer-report-geography

It's a pity since the US was once at the forefront of innovation. Now it'll be left behind in the dust as other countries embrace the revolution. This is bad for the US economy in the long term. The de-dollarization process has already begun, so it should only be a matter of time before another country takes the US' place as the world's leading economic hub.

I think there's no turning back, unless Congress gets its act together by revising the Biden administration's crypto regulatory framework. Crypto is all about decentralization, so I'm confident it will survive with or without the US. Who knows if in the future US crypto users migrate to a country with flexible crypto regulations? Just my opinion Smiley

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May 17, 2023, 02:41:32 AM
 #24

According to the SEC it might take years before the cryptospace will have regulatory clarity hehehe. It appears the SEC will continue harrassing exchanges and different projects in the cryptospace by using obscureness as a weapon because they can choose whatever projects they want to harrass based on uncle Gary's choosing.



Prominent crypto exchange Coinbase recently hit back at the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission [SEC] by submitting a petition requesting clarification on crypto regulations. However, Coinbase disclosed that the response received from the regulators was not favorable to the cryptocurrency industry.

According to recent court documents, the SEC suggested that it is under no obligation to deliver Coinbase’s requests presented in the petition. The SEC also contended that Coinbase’s proposal for comprehensive reforms and rule-making within a constrained timeframe is a complex task. The SEC stated in its filling

“Neither the securities laws nor the Administrative Procedure Act impose on the Securities and Exchange Commission an obligation to issue the broad new regulations regarding ‘digital assets’ Coinbase has requested.”


Source https://watcher.guru/news/crypto-regulatory-clarity-may-take-years-sec

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.ca3.119939/gov.uscourts.ca3.119939.26.0_1.pdf

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Abiky (OP)
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May 18, 2023, 09:55:46 AM
 #25

According to the SEC it might take years before the cryptospace will have regulatory clarity hehehe. It appears the SEC will continue harrassing exchanges and different projects in the cryptospace by using obscureness as a weapon because they can choose whatever projects they want to harrass based on uncle Gary's choosing.



Prominent crypto exchange Coinbase recently hit back at the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission [SEC] by submitting a petition requesting clarification on crypto regulations. However, Coinbase disclosed that the response received from the regulators was not favorable to the cryptocurrency industry.

According to recent court documents, the SEC suggested that it is under no obligation to deliver Coinbase’s requests presented in the petition. The SEC also contended that Coinbase’s proposal for comprehensive reforms and rule-making within a constrained timeframe is a complex task. The SEC stated in its filling

“Neither the securities laws nor the Administrative Procedure Act impose on the Securities and Exchange Commission an obligation to issue the broad new regulations regarding ‘digital assets’ Coinbase has requested.”


Source https://watcher.guru/news/crypto-regulatory-clarity-may-take-years-sec

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.ca3.119939/gov.uscourts.ca3.119939.26.0_1.pdf

That's very sad. It would create a "deadlock" between the US government and the crypto industry for years on end. This could change if there's a new administration by the time 2025 comes in. Gary Gensler could be replaced by someone else who's more open to dialogue between crypto exchanges and service providers alike. Ultimately, Congress has the power to put an end to this nightmare once and for all.

I really hope the US gets back in the game just to make life easier for US investors and/or traders. Otherwise, crypto users in the country will feel a lot of pain in the long run. Who knows how the battle between Coinbase and the SEC will unfold in the future? Just my opinion Smiley

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May 18, 2023, 07:19:52 PM
 #26

Coinbase decided to ignore the SEC warning and continue offering staking services to US customers stating that "staking is handled by decentralized protocols".
No one has actually commented strongly on this statement. Is SEC actually correct or is Coinbase correct. Or are both correct in their jurisdiction. To be more clear, who knows how Binance operates in US? Does SEC monitor or regulates the activities of binance in US? Activities such as;
Listing process;
Staking activities;?

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July 21, 2023, 01:41:40 AM
 #27

Coinbase decided to ignore the SEC warning and continue offering staking services to US customers stating that "staking is handled by decentralized protocols".
No one has actually commented strongly on this statement. Is SEC actually correct or is Coinbase correct. Or are both correct in their jurisdiction. To be more clear, who knows how Binance operates in US? Does SEC monitor or regulates the activities of binance in US? Activities such as;
Listing process;
Staking activities;?

After Ripple won their case against the SEC, it appears there are presently some new questions on how can uncle Gary go after Coinbase and declare it as an illegal secutities exchange when the SEC approved the exchange to have an IPO in the Nasdaq. If it was approved to become a public company offering shares in a traditional exchange, then it should imply that the SEC considers it a legal business.

The SEC might lose another case hehehehe.

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July 21, 2023, 02:42:58 AM
 #28

Coinbase decided to ignore the SEC warning and continue offering staking services to US customers stating that "staking is handled by decentralized protocols".
No one has actually commented strongly on this statement. Is SEC actually correct or is Coinbase correct. Or are both correct in their jurisdiction. To be more clear, who knows how Binance operates in US? Does SEC monitor or regulates the activities of binance in US? Activities such as;
Listing process;
Staking activities;?

After Ripple won their case against the SEC, it appears there are presently some new questions on how can uncle Gary go after Coinbase and declare it as an illegal secutities exchange when the SEC approved the exchange to have an IPO in the Nasdaq. If it was approved to become a public company offering shares in a traditional exchange, then it should imply that the SEC considers it a legal business.

The SEC might lose another case hehehehe.

The decision as regards the SEC vs. Ripple wasn't black and white that you can declare Ripple as the winner. Both SEC and Ripple were winners and losers in the decision. Ripple's token was declared both a security and not. A security when directly sold to institutional investors and not when publicly sold on exchanges.

Coinbase's involvement in staking is a different case, although not entirely. If the case of Ripple can be any basis, then I guess coins purchased from exchanges, earned through mining, and any other way except being purchased from ICO, and then staked at Coinbase are probably not securities.

I cannot find Gensler's comments on the approval of Coinbase to be publicly listed at the same time suing it for being a broker of unregistered securities, but he's already commented on it. Coinbase is indeed a legal business and it was given a green light to go public, but these don't prejudice SEC's allegations of unregistered securities being sold on the platform.

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July 22, 2023, 01:03:20 AM
 #29

@Darker45. Do not be tricked by mainstream news media and these experts that the judge of the ruling did not say that the tokens are not by themselves a contract, transaction that embodies the howey requirements.

The ruling is very clear. Read in page 15.

https://www.dropbox.com/e/scl/fi/bk1n1qn1tgscrcrrfldr8/SEC-v.-Ripple-Ruling-on-Motions-for-Summary-Judgment.pdf?dl=0&rlkey=cjyfdw5rl58diqxyi3qfgix7s

Correct me if I am wrong. The SEC's case against Coinbase was created because according to the SEC, those tokens that were being staked in the exchange were illegal securities. I reckon this can be very much connected with Ripple's case.

Also, why approve Coinbase to have an IPO if the SEC considered it an illegal securities exchange?

In any case, after Ripple's victory Do Kwon's lawyers want to use XRP's case as precedent for their own case hehehe.



Lawyers of former Terra boss Do Kwon have cited the recent XRP victory in the SEC lawsuit in a bid to dismiss the agency’s case against Kwon and Terra.

In a supplementary document filed on July 18, the legal team highlighted the decision made by Judge Analisa Torres in the SEC v. Ripple Labs case, which ruled that the digital asset XRP was not a security.

The defendants’ lawyers assert that the SEC’s claims against the tokens UST, LUNA, wLUNA, and MIR lack merit, drawing parallels to the Ripple ruling. According to the Ripple decision, certain sales of XRP did not meet the criteria to be classified as investment contracts under the Howey test.


Source https://thecryptobasic.com/2023/07/21/do-kwon-lawyers-invoke-xrp-victory-to-dismiss-sec-case-on-terra-collapse/

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July 23, 2023, 01:54:14 AM
 #30

@Darker45. Do not be tricked by mainstream news media and these experts that the judge of the ruling did not say that the tokens are not by themselves a contract, transaction that embodies the howey requirements.

The ruling is very clear. Read in page 15.

https://www.dropbox.com/e/scl/fi/bk1n1qn1tgscrcrrfldr8/SEC-v.-Ripple-Ruling-on-Motions-for-Summary-Judgment.pdf?dl=0&rlkey=cjyfdw5rl58diqxyi3qfgix7s

What makes you think that I'm tricked by mainstream news media and some so-called experts?

How do you understand your quoted line, by the way?

It doesn't say that XRP is not a security. Neither does it say otherwise. The judge says that the decision is not to be based on those tokens themselves but on the "totality of circumstances" surrounding the offer, sales, and distribution of those tokens. The court decision even emphasized that "even if XRP exhibits certain characteristics of a commodity or a currency, it may nonetheless be offered or sold as an investment contract."

As a result, and I repeat, both Ripple and SEC are winners and losers at the same time as both their motions are partly granted and partly denied. 

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July 23, 2023, 02:49:49 AM
 #31

@Darker45. I am not saying that you are specifically tricked by the news. I am only implying that most of the time, all of us are influenced by what we read from mainstream news media. They will use different statements that might make the truth appear more abstract and make it appear that something else was being said.

On the ruling, as the judge declared, XRP as a digital token is not in and of itself a contract, a transaction or a scheme that embodies the howey test requirements of an investment contract. This is a very important statement the sets the precedent that many of the other crypto projects' tokens are not illegal securities. If the SEC wants to argue differently then they should appeal the ruling. We should not be tricked that sometimes it is a security, sometimes not. The ruling clearly declares that it is not.

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July 23, 2023, 03:56:44 AM
 #32

@Darker45. I am not saying that you are specifically tricked by the news. I am only implying that most of the time, all of us are influenced by what we read from mainstream news media. They will use different statements that might make the truth appear more abstract and make it appear that something else was being said.

On the ruling, as the judge declared, XRP as a digital token is not in and of itself a contract, a transaction or a scheme that embodies the howey test requirements of an investment contract. This is a very important statement the sets the precedent that many of the other crypto projects' tokens are not illegal securities. If the SEC wants to argue differently then they should appeal the ruling. We should not be tricked that sometimes it is a security, sometimes not. The ruling clearly declares that it is not.

I'm now wondering whether you have actually read or understood the entire decision. It's not wrong to paraphrase the decision if only to make it brief and direct to the point, therefore, easier to digest, for as long as the point is there. Not saying everything verbatim is not equivalent to "mak[ing] it appear that something else was being said." We're not being tricked here. We're simply repeating what is there in the decision itself. But let me just bring you to the actual text of Judge Torres:

"For the reasons stated below, the SEC’s motion is GRANTED in part and DENIED in part, and Defendants’ motion is GRANTED in part and DENIED in part."

"For the foregoing reasons, the SEC’s motion for summary judgment is GRANTED as to the Institutional Sales, and otherwise DENIED. Defendants’ motion for summary judgment is GRANTED as to the Programmatic Sales, the Other Distributions, and Larsen’s and Garlinghouse’s sales, and DENIED as to the Institutional Sales."

The decision does not declare that XRP is "sometimes it is a security, sometimes not". Those are your own words, your personal interpretation. And those are the wrong words and interpretation.

The decision is actually founded upon the fact that "the SEC alleges that Ripple engaged in three categories of unregistered XRP offers and sales:

(1) Institutional Sales under written contracts for which it received $728 million;
(2) Programmatic Sales on digital asset exchanges for which it received $757 million; and
(3) Other Distributions under written contracts for which it recorded $609 million in “consideration other than cash.”"

The court's decision is based on these three different categories, and they ruled as follows:

  • On Institutional Sales: "the Court concludes that Ripple’s Institutional Sales of XRP constituted the unregistered offer and sale of investment contracts in violation of Section 5 of the Securities Act."
  • On Programmatic Sales: "the Court concludes that Ripple’s Programmatic Sales of XRP did not constitute the offer and sale of investment contracts.
  • On Other Distributions: "the Court concludes that Ripple’s Other Distributions did not constitute the offer and sale of investment contracts."

These different decisions are the reason why there is not only one winner in the case. Clearly, the court favored the SEC in one category and opposed as to the other categories. In the same manner that it also granted Ripple's motions in some categories and denied in the other one.

And I repeat that Judge's Torres decision is not based on the XRP token alone but upon consideration of "the economic reality and totality of circumstances."

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July 23, 2023, 05:25:08 PM
 #33

After Ripple won their case against the SEC, it appears there are presently some new questions on how can uncle Gary go after Coinbase and declare it as an illegal secutities exchange when the SEC approved the exchange to have an IPO in the Nasdaq. If it was approved to become a public company offering shares in a traditional exchange, then it should imply that the SEC considers it a legal business.

The SEC might lose another case hehehehe.

The SEC doesn't know where it's standing. It classified most cryptocurrencies as securities, even though it allowed Coinbase to go public with Nasdaq. There needs to be regulatory clarity in the US, or there will be serious consequences in the long run. I wouldn't declare victory in XRP's case against the SEC, especially with the Biden administration's tough crypto regulations. It's most likely the SEC will appeal the court decision with the hopes of turning the tide.

Unless we're certain the US will revise its crypto regulations, don't expect Coinbase to give up without a good fight. It's a battle that would take years to end. Who knows if all crypto exchanges and companies end up leaving the US in the future? Just my opinion Smiley

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July 24, 2023, 04:22:57 AM
 #34

@Darker45. I am not saying that you are specifically tricked by the news. I am only implying that most of the time, all of us are influenced by what we read from mainstream news media. They will use different statements that might make the truth appear more abstract and make it appear that something else was being said.

On the ruling, as the judge declared, XRP as a digital token is not in and of itself a contract, a transaction or a scheme that embodies the howey test requirements of an investment contract. This is a very important statement the sets the precedent that many of the other crypto projects' tokens are not illegal securities. If the SEC wants to argue differently then they should appeal the ruling. We should not be tricked that sometimes it is a security, sometimes not. The ruling clearly declares that it is not.

I'm now wondering whether you have actually read or understood the entire decision. It's not wrong to paraphrase the decision if only to make it brief and direct to the point, therefore, easier to digest, for as long as the point is there. Not saying everything verbatim is not equivalent to "mak[ing] it appear that something else was being said." We're not being tricked here. We're simply repeating what is there in the decision itself. But let me just bring you to the actual text of Judge Torres:

"For the reasons stated below, the SEC’s motion is GRANTED in part and DENIED in part, and Defendants’ motion is GRANTED in part and DENIED in part."

"For the foregoing reasons, the SEC’s motion for summary judgment is GRANTED as to the Institutional Sales, and otherwise DENIED. Defendants’ motion for summary judgment is GRANTED as to the Programmatic Sales, the Other Distributions, and Larsen’s and Garlinghouse’s sales, and DENIED as to the Institutional Sales."

The decision does not declare that XRP is "sometimes it is a security, sometimes not". Those are your own words, your personal interpretation. And those are the wrong words and interpretation.

The decision is actually founded upon the fact that "the SEC alleges that Ripple engaged in three categories of unregistered XRP offers and sales:

(1) Institutional Sales under written contracts for which it received $728 million;
(2) Programmatic Sales on digital asset exchanges for which it received $757 million; and
(3) Other Distributions under written contracts for which it recorded $609 million in “consideration other than cash.”"

The court's decision is based on these three different categories, and they ruled as follows:

  • On Institutional Sales: "the Court concludes that Ripple’s Institutional Sales of XRP constituted the unregistered offer and sale of investment contracts in violation of Section 5 of the Securities Act."
  • On Programmatic Sales: "the Court concludes that Ripple’s Programmatic Sales of XRP did not constitute the offer and sale of investment contracts.
  • On Other Distributions: "the Court concludes that Ripple’s Other Distributions did not constitute the offer and sale of investment contracts."

These different decisions are the reason why there is not only one winner in the case. Clearly, the court favored the SEC in one category and opposed as to the other categories. In the same manner that it also granted Ripple's motions in some categories and denied in the other one.

And I repeat that Judge's Torres decision is not based on the XRP token alone but upon consideration of "the economic reality and totality of circumstances."

Yes I am aware of the totality of the judge's decision. However, and I am only saying, that it is very important for us not to be confused on what the judge's ruling on XRP really implies. The ruling states clearly that XRP as a digital token is not in and of itself a contract, a transaction or a scheme that embodies the howey test requirements of an investment contract.

This is the part of the case where all of the other cryptocoin and token projects can use as precedent when they begin fighting for their own legal battles.

In next coming months, I reckon that we should not get distracted and be influenced by legal terms or specific details of the case that might leave us more confused. The ruling on XRP has already been made very clearly.

On how Ripple's case ends after the SEC's appeal, I do not care. I am only talking about the present ruling on XRP. It is not a security.

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