Tax not workable or enforceable.

[jubalix]

Bitcoin is a currency, a commodity, property, a bundle of rights, voting system, proto DAC and more. Volatility is good as is speculation. None of this has stopped BTC being used as an exchange for goods and services.

The govt don't tax my use of visa card in this way, I suppose because the Visa card is a pointer to USD

If I Acquire euro's with USD on my visa, or a pre loaded euro Visa card and the euro goes up, and I buy things, does this attract the same tax?

In any event, the complexity of what the IRS propose and the nature of BTC as in you just can't establish who purchased what when means. Even if you could a coin eg zero coin or similar or add on feature will make this impossible from a technical point of view.

In the alternative a tax efficient way to get around this will occur. We with BTC can do things similar to Apple now.

More foundational though, the Govt has lost the right to Tax, this creation in this way or us. The Govt has lost the right to tax per se as it fails to provide sufficient quid pro quo for the Tax burden it imposes. And by Tax, invidious tax as well, eg the evaporation of wealth by massive quantitative easing and by over regulation of individuals in relation to production.

Bitcoin and that tech finally gives us a way to be free of much of Govt and gives an alternative more efficient form of organization. A Government of we, me, us, not them.

The elision of Sovereignty from the state to the individual is what BTC enables, in a way not thought or practically  possible before. We have together proved that not only was no State needed but this could be done and has been done writ large in the balance book and now history. We thrive in tumultuous evolution.

Yes there are issues eg Gox, but there already solutions suggested to that with provable BTC reserves.

If you wish to opt in to taxation do so. If you don't don't. The Govt merely makes marks on paper and hopes by fear, force of arms, state sanctioned violence and misguided or self serving rhetoric they can obtain mass herd compliance, by the example it can make of the few. The Govt do this in the self righteous misconception that they are doing right for themselves and society. The reality is much of Government has slipped into a self serving, unworkable edifice that appears like a parasite killing its host, you, we us. BTC is the first part of the cure.

The US is fast writing itself into irrelevance.

What will a Govt do when BTC is 10, 100 or 1000+ times more than today. What asset class offers this reward. This in it self will break any system that attempts to stem the flow.

Stand by not being counted.

[Aswan]

If you wish to opt in to taxation do so. If you don't don't.

Exactly. If I don't sign a contract in which I agree to do something for someone, then I don't have to do that something for someone. Be it paying money or working for someone. You don't sign a contract, you don't owe anything!

[jubalix]

If you wish to opt in to taxation do so. If you don't don't.

Exactly. If I don't sign a contract in which I agree to do something for someone, then I don't have to do that something for someone. Be it paying money or working for someone. You don't sign a contract, you don't owe anything!

You have grasped in this comment that what Govt's do is attempt to force you into a contract at birth. A contract with the whole state system.

The excuse is you can politically change the system, by voteing or standing. The problem with this argument is you never agreed in the first instance to the form of the system, i.e. you never voted for that. And that keeps the large majority locked out. You never voted for the Constitution nor do you.

[twiifm]

If you wish to opt in to taxation do so. If you don't don't.

Exactly. If I don't sign a contract in which I agree to do something for someone, then I don't have to do that something for someone. Be it paying money or working for someone. You don't sign a contract, you don't owe anything!

You have grasped in this comment that what Govt's do is attempt to force you into a contract at birth. A contract with the whole state system.

The excuse is you can politically change the system, by voteing or standing. The problem with this argument is you never agreed in the first instance to the form of the system, i.e. you never voted for that. And that keeps the large majority locked out. You never voted for the Constitution nor do you.

You are free to move somewhere else

[allenove]

If you wish to opt in to taxation do so. If you don't don't.

Exactly. If I don't sign a contract in which I agree to do something for someone, then I don't have to do that something for someone. Be it paying money or working for someone. You don't sign a contract, you don't owe anything!

You have grasped in this comment that what Govt's do is attempt to force you into a contract at birth. A contract with the whole state system.

The excuse is you can politically change the system, by voteing or standing. The problem with this argument is you never agreed in the first instance to the form of the system, i.e. you never voted for that. And that keeps the large majority locked out. You never voted for the Constitution nor do you.

that currency/commodity/property we can't possibly control... it would be great if you would just send us every detail of how much you bought/sold/mined so that we can take more of your hard earned money...btw we have no way of doing that ourselves so be a slave...I MEAN a dear and hand it over so WE can spend it on things you don't support or believe in

[mekanical]

If I Acquire euro's with USD on my visa, or a pre loaded euro Visa card and the euro goes up, and I buy things, does this attract the same tax?

I would not say it is the same tax.  Your gain through currency rates is taxable as ordinary income, or dependent on situation possibly taxed per form 6781 section 1256 for "currency contracts" which I believe is applicable for a lot of currency trading.  To the best of my understanding, BTC is taxed in the following manner:

Mining: You pay ordinary income tax on profits you get from mining.
trading:  You pay long or short term capital gains based on the profit or loss from the trade.

More foundational though, the Govt has lost the right to Tax, this creation in this way or us. The Govt has lost the right to tax per se as it fails to provide sufficient quid pro quo for the Tax burden it imposes.

They didn't lose it, per constitution the government never had the right to tax income.  However it has been doing it since the mid-early 1900s, and its not going away, though I would agree with you in that it is very difficult/almost impossible to enforce tax law on bitcoin transactions.

[jubalix]

If you wish to opt in to taxation do so. If you don't don't.

Exactly. If I don't sign a contract in which I agree to do something for someone, then I don't have to do that something for someone. Be it paying money or working for someone. You don't sign a contract, you don't owe anything!

You have grasped in this comment that what Govt's do is attempt to force you into a contract at birth. A contract with the whole state system.

The excuse is you can politically change the system, by voteing or standing. The problem with this argument is you never agreed in the first instance to the form of the system, i.e. you never voted for that. And that keeps the large majority locked out. You never voted for the Constitution nor do you.

You are free to move somewhere else

No. The passport system makes is exceedingly hard to move anywhere. In any event why should we/I. I see no intrinsic right attached to any particle of soil by any law. We are free to declare individual sovereignty, before a pipe dream. Now via unsiezable wealth a reality.

BTC tech is the means to form a distributed compact that says No.

[jubalix]

If I Acquire euro's with USD on my visa, or a pre loaded euro Visa card and the euro goes up, and I buy things, does this attract the same tax?

I would not say it is the same tax.  Your gain through currency rates is taxable as ordinary income, or dependent on situation possibly taxed per form 6781 section 1256 for "currency contracts" which I believe is applicable for a lot of currency trading.  To the best of my understanding, BTC is taxed in the following manner:

Mining: You pay ordinary income tax on profits you get from mining.
trading:  You pay long or short term capital gains based on the profit or loss from the trade.

More foundational though, the Govt has lost the right to Tax, this creation in this way or us. The Govt has lost the right to tax per se as it fails to provide sufficient quid pro quo for the Tax burden it imposes.

They didn't lose it, per constitution the government never had the right to tax income.  However it has been doing it since the mid-early 1900s, and its not going away, though I would agree with you in that it is very difficult/almost impossible to enforce tax law on bitcoin transactions.

All tax.

[Aswan]

If you wish to opt in to taxation do so. If you don't don't.

Exactly. If I don't sign a contract in which I agree to do something for someone, then I don't have to do that something for someone. Be it paying money or working for someone. You don't sign a contract, you don't owe anything!

You have grasped in this comment that what Govt's do is attempt to force you into a contract at birth. A contract with the whole state system.

The excuse is you can politically change the system, by voteing or standing. The problem with this argument is you never agreed in the first instance to the form of the system, i.e. you never voted for that. And that keeps the large majority locked out. You never voted for the Constitution nor do you.

You are free to move somewhere else

It's an argument that requires unclaimed land in order to be valid. Else I'd just have new owners, but no freedom.

[mdotstrange]

Excellent post!

"Taxes" are the welfare the government uses to live off the people- when they can't collect welfare from the people by default then we'll see some real changes around here.

The IRS announcement sounds like this to me...in Lundberg's voice-

"So umm yeah... that currency/commodity/property we can't possibly control... it would be great if you would just send us every detail of how much you bought/sold/mined so that we can take more of your hard earned money...btw we have no way of doing that ourselves so be a slave...I MEAN a dear and hand it over so WE can spend it on things you don't support or believe in...mmkay thanks"