Coinjoin on Trezor Suite

[_act_]

You can now conjoin on Trezor Suite



You want to know about what coinjoin is: https://trezor.io/learn/a/what-is-coinjoin
Guide: https://trezor.io/learn/a/coinjoin-in-trezor-suite

Coinjoin fees

A 0.3% coordinator fee will be taken from fresh coins greater than 1,000,000 sats (0.01 BTC). There is no such fee for UTXOs below this amount.

As with any other bitcoin transaction, you also need to pay mining fees. For coinjoin, you must pay a mining fee for each round.

Read the guide to know what are necessary, for example using Tor: https://trezor.io/learn/a/coinjoin-in-trezor-suite

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[o_e_l_e_o]

Trezor is using Wasabi to perform their coinjoins, which pays blockchain analysis companies to spy on all your UTXOs and censor ones they don't like. I would stay well clear of this and all Trezor devices.

[tranthidung]

Bitcoin is for freedom and censorship Bitcoin UTXOs is something violates that core use case of Bitcoin.

Wasabi blacklisting update - open letter / 24 questions discussion thread
Wasabi wallet explains new Bitcoin censorship

I am not against Wasabi wallet but above are facts about their latest upgrades as well as their policies to censor blacklisted UTXOs.

[o_e_l_e_o]

maybe is my naivety speaking but I think despite breaking the trust of their customers, they are just trying to appease the government and protect their name.

And why would you want your hardware wallet to spy on you and sell you out for the sake of appeasing the government or their own reputation? The whole point of bitcoin is to not require permission from third parties in order to make the transactions you want, be they governments or blockchain analysis companies.

I was thinking of trying their device(Trezor) before, but if you believe its better to avoid it, Do help me with a recommendation.

If I was going to buy a hardware wallet right now, I'd pick either a Passport or a Coldcard.

But do assist me in understanding why use conjoining rather than a direct transaction.

For your privacy.

[RickDeckard]

Pmalek has also reported that, besides officially launching Coinjoin, Trezor also associated this event with a 15% discount on Model T. As per my reply on that thread[1], it is sad to see that Trezor gave in into working with zkSNACKs[2]. I wouldn't use Coinjoin operations in Trezor until they decide to choose another coordinator (if that is even possible to do so).

If I was going to buy a hardware wallet right now, I'd pick either a Passport or a Coldcard.

Can't recommend enough Passport devices. @She shining I definitely recommend that you read these[3][4] review topics created by n0nce regarding both Passport devices as I'm sure you'll find a lot of good feedback there.
[1]https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5449487.msg62118829#msg62118829
[2]https://blog.trezor.io/coinjoin-privacy-for-bitcoin-11aaf291f23
[3]https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5421713
[4]https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5382675.0

[o_e_l_e_o]

Haha, perfect timing here as we discuss Passport:

Totally coincidental timing, but we've got a $10 off promo code for you fine folks 👋

Use "NOCENSORSHIP" at checkout (valid until Sunday) to save $10 and get the peace of mind that comes from unwavering security + uncensorable Bitcoin transactions.

And Trezor are hiding dozens and dozens of replies on Twitter calling them out for partnering with Wasabi and blockchain analysis. The irony of a pro-censorship company censoring everyone calling them out on their censorship. 

Trezor have really messed up big time here. No one should ever buy another Trezor device.

[witcher_sense]

When CoinJoining on Trezor, you can't choose a coordinator to manage your transactions because it only work with "official" zkSNACKs coordinator.

Will Trezor sign just any transaction when it is in the automated signing mode?

No. Trezor will only sign transactions that have been prepared by zkSNACKs official coinjoin coordinator.

You are not allowed to decide which of your coins should participate in a CoinJoin transaction, you need to rely on their algorithm of automatic selection.

Can I manually select which coins to register for coinjoin?

No. All coins in your coinjoin account are eligible for mixing. The coins are selected automatically based on multiple factors.

In one of the sections of their FAQ they claim that Bitcoin is fungible and that, at the same time, there may be some "high-risk UTXOs" in your wallet unworthy to be mixed by their software.

How does the coinjoin coordinator choose inputs?

When you press Start, the coinjoin coordinator maintained by zkSNACKs receives a list of UTXOs to include in a coinjoin. Since your UTXOs will be sent in a transaction with other users’ funds, the coordinator checks that no individual UTXO has caused a recent coinjoin to fail and is not on a list of known high-risk UTXOs. This keeps your coins private without affecting fungibility. Owning a high-risk UTXO will not prevent other UTXOs in your wallet from being coinjoined.

https://trezor.io/learn/a/coinjoin-in-trezor-suite#FAQs

[Doan9269]

Before this time, wasabi is one of the recommended means to privately secure our bitcoin but once this was detected from that to have a privacy leak on user's data, there's a shift in which people move away from using it to the most preferred bitcoincore client using Tor, same thing we also deduce a linkage from wasabi to trezor in terms of same challenges and this makes both a thing of serious concerns if considering privacy or data leakage.

[mk4]

Trezor <> CoinJoins is a pretty hot topic rn.

For the highly technologically literate peeps here, any opinions on this Twitter back-and-forth between Nicolas Dorier and BitBuyBitPod? Nic's stance is kinda convincing to me, but I might have some blindspots.

vvv

https://twitter.com/BitBuyBitPod/status/1648933303343280133

[o_e_l_e_o]

Nic's stance is kinda convincing to me, but I might have some blindspots.

Wasabi, and now Trezor, are actively supporting and in fact directly funding government sanctioned surveillance and censorship. This is about as antithetical to bitcoin as you can get.

[Pmalek]

I wouldn't use Coinjoin operations in Trezor until they decide to choose another coordinator (if that is even possible to do so).

I don't think the problem is creating a new coordinator, and I am sure Trezor could have done it by putting in some more work. The problem is getting enough liquidity and users willing to switch from zkSNACKs to your new coordinator. The best option would have been to do nothing at the moment. The way things stand now, you have to choose between two evils. Using the pro-censorship zkSNACKs coordinator or running a new one no else is/will be using. 

How does the coinjoin coordinator choose inputs?

Since your UTXOs will be sent in a transaction with other users’ funds, the coordinator checks that no individual UTXO has caused a recent coinjoin to fail and is not on a list of known high-risk UTXOs. This keeps your coins private without affecting fungibility. Owning a high-risk UTXO will not prevent other UTXOs in your wallet from being coinjoined.

Ohh, how cute. Bless them. Maybe they can share these infamous lists with us and tell us what constitutes a "high-risk UTXO" and who makes the decision which ones those are!?

[mk4]

Wasabi, and now Trezor, are actively supporting and in fact directly funding government sanctioned surveillance and censorship. This is about as antithetical to bitcoin as you can get.

I totally get that. But isn't this something that we could totally blame on Wasabi? Knowing that as far as I know they're a US-based company. Potential government-related problems of getting your company shut down and all that.

[RickDeckard]

https://twitter.com/BitBuyBitPod/status/1648933303343280133

This is just a personal privacy preference, but whenever I have the need to access Twitter I always prefer to use Nitter[1][2]:

Nitter is a free and open source alternative Twitter front-end focused on privacy and performance.

Even after blocking access to their (Twitter) API, Nitter still runs fine on my end and probably will continue to do so (from my limited understanding they scrap Twitter and don't have any need for API access). Whenever you need to access a Twitter page or thread, you just need to replace "twitter.com" with "nitter.net":

https://nitter.net/BitBuyBitPod/status/1648936145378582528

I totally get that. But isn't this something that we could totally blame on Wasabi? Knowing that as far as I know they're a US-based company. Potential government-related problems of getting your company shut down and all that.

From my perspective, Trezor could choose, if they wanted, to create their own coordinator as "CoinJoin is a collaboration among several people to create a bitcoin transaction—you can imagine that they are joining their coins together temporarily."[3]. Anyone is free to correct me if I'm wrong, but they could have go with centralized coordinators used by Samourai Wallet[4] since they aren't (yet) blackmailing UTXO's but they didn't choose that route and instead opted for siding with zkSNACKs...
[1]https://nitter.net/about
[2]https://github.com/zedeus/nitter
[3]https://unchained.com/blog/what-is-coinjoin/
[4]https://code.samourai.io/whirlpool/Whirlpool

[o_e_l_e_o]

Yeah, as RickDeckard says, there is absolutely no requirement for Trezor to work with zkSNACKs at all. They could run their own coordinator, they could set up their own coinjoin process, they could partner with Samourai or JoinMarket, they could just not implement coinjoin at all. By specifically choosing to partner with Wasabi, they are directly choosing to support surveillance and censorship when alternatives exist.

This is just a personal privacy preference, but whenever I have the need to access Twitter I always prefer to use Nitter

Nitter also shows hidden replies by default, so you can see the dozens of tweets calling out Trezor for supporting censorship that they have hidden.

[dkbit98]

Yeah, as RickDeckard says, there is absolutely no requirement for Trezor to work with zkSNACKs at all. They could run their own coordinator, they could set up their own coinjoin process, they could partner with Samourai or JoinMarket, they could just not implement coinjoin at all. By specifically choosing to partner with Wasabi, they are directly choosing to support surveillance and censorship when alternatives exist.

Opinions are divided about this decision by Trezor, I was hoping they would start different coordinator but it seems nobody is willing to take a risk with regulators now.
Good thing that nobody is forced to use Coinjons with Trezor or Wasabi, you can use anything else instead.
Samourai also don't have such a great reputation and history, so I think people should focus more on Joinmarket.

Nitter also shows hidden replies by default, so you can see the dozens of tweets calling out Trezor for supporting censorship that they have hidden.

I really don't understand why they started doing that, they even deleted one of their old tweets when they criticized Wasabi for censoring transactions.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Opinions are divided about this decision by Trezor, I was hoping they would start different coordinator but it seems nobody is willing to take a risk with regulators now.

Given their support for AOPP last year, embedding KYC requiring exchanges in to their software, and now funding mass surveillance and censorship, Trezor really have taken a major turn for the worse.

so I think people should focus more on Joinmarket.

I like JoinMarket and use it a lot, but there is no denying that it is significantly harder for your average user to set up and use.

I really don't understand why they started doing that, they even deleted one of their old tweets when they criticized Wasabi for censoring transactions.

The same reason that Wasabi starting censoring transactions in the first place - they care more about making money than they do about morals or even bitcoin itself.

[franky1]

two big thing certain people are missing.
all the talk about "government" yet government politicians dont sit at computers monitoring every citizens financial movements. its the businesses that do this and then the business report crimes/suspicions

governments delegate businesses like wasabi/trezor to become the police. the businesses watch its customers and report suspicious stuff. so its not the government watching everyone. its the businesses.

by trezor joining up(excuse the pun) with such businesses is where people should be wary of.

secondly. by trezor getting people to move funds out of a cold wallet (cold wallets were trezors sole friggen purpose) to put into a 'account' which needs to be plugged in(hot) so a remote co-ordinator can then tap into the users software to sign automatically when the time is right. BIG SECURITY RISK

yep allowing some remote user to sign your funds away. is a big risk.
its not auto as in the software does it itself. its auto meaning the user is not required to consent by signing themselves.. the coordinator does the transaction template creation and signing. big risk of allowing outsiders to move your funds, which defeats trezors original purpose

[Don Pedro Dinero]

OK, so if we want to buy a HW, what's left? In the old days it was Ledger and Trezor. Ledger is not very reliable because of the hacks he had and now Trezor with this. I know other HW brands came out over time, but are they reliable?

On the other hand, do we have news on the forum of people who have had transactions censored? Most of the coins circulating on the forum are from casinos or mixers, which are frowned upon in both cases. I haven't had any problems moving them so far.

[_act_]

@ o_e_l_e_o. Because Trezor is now supporting coinjoin with the help of Wasabi which are making the chain analysis to cenzor transactions, it is a good reason not to use Trezor. What about people that have Trezor before or people that still like it because it is open source wallet but not going for the coinjoin but instead just use the legacy or segwit normal part of it? Are all the transactions now thought or guessed to be censored?

[o_e_l_e_o]

OK, so if we want to buy a HW, what's left?

Passport is currently the best on the market in my opinion.

I haven't had any problems moving them so far.

Have you tried coinjoining them?

What about people that have Trezor before or people that still like it because it is open source wallet but not going for the coinjoin but instead just use the legacy or segwit normal part of it?

If you already have a Trezor, then you are safe to keep using it provided you don't go anywhere near the coinjoin function. But when the time comes to replace or upgrade your hardware wallet, don't buy another Trezor.