Restrict newbies from posting in the lending board?

[rby]

I don't think that there is any lender in the lending board who is willing to lend to any newbie without a collateral

Newbies concoct all kinds of sob stories and invariably someone (usualy another unsuspecting newbie) will "lend" them funds only to have the borrower not return.

Oops! If this happens, it calls for a serious attention and maybe moderators step up to delete such posts as soon as possible before the post will have a prey.
SEE it from the other side, if newbies are totally restricted from the lending board, how about (usually another unsuspecting newbie) who is a lender with good intentions, he will be affected also.
Well, a serious newbie lender should be able to afford copper membership.

Along the way hardcore scammers just ask for loans and walk away with the lender's funds.  We've seen it happen all to often - check out the scam accusation threads if you don't believe me.

I believe you, and I have seen so many times but I most times don't believe newbies (brand news) who accuse others or companies for scam. In the end, it is often discovered that they were the ones trying to cheat.

• So, to avoid spam, such newbies should be ignored outrightly or be warned and if they persist, they'll be tagged and everyone moves on

It has been done like this, those newbies got tagged and warned, but sometime some users playing fun or joking about that. There's no standard and rules for any users to reply, so it's better for the moderators to lock the thread instead.

I have seen this scenario alot of time where high rank members try to pull a fun on a particular thread and when the newbies reply steadily, it will gradually turn a troll threads.

I'd say when a newbie asking a loan without collateral, it's similar like begging in a different way. As we know begging isn't allowed in this forum and the moderators will immediately delete those topic.

If newbies asking for non collateral loan is called begging, could also an established member asking for non collateral loan be called begging? Maybe No!
Not begging per say but there are some tones used by some of this suspecting newbies which tries to play with emotion of the lenders. I quietly chuckle when I see such posts.

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[DaveF]

Probably would just be easier to

1) Leave them some negative feedback and encourage others to do the same.
2) Start a flag and encourage others to support it.
3) Add them to your ignore list
4) ~ in your trust list.

And then move on. Is it 100% proper use of flags and feedback. Perhaps not, but who cares. They are here to troll / scam and after a while the person(s) who have been actively cluttering up the lending board will move on. If not, they are just wasting time but at least not cluttering up the board elsewhere.

-Dave

[CYBER_COWBOY]

Ask yourself what would satoshi do, he did create this forum and bitcoin free for everyone to use and not only for a few people.

Its very frustrating when newbies go and ask for a loan I agree, but its not fair that they get negative feedback one second after and left out in the cold.
I know its topic thats around that explains and give tips how to behave but to be fair how many read them.
a warning if you do that and if you continue then negative feedback is the way to go.

We all are under satoshi on this forum and this forum is for everyone no mater what rank people have.
I think it was a reason that bitcoin was and is a free thing that everyone can get.

And also.. i start to think more and more this is people creating alts for just trolling with people on the forum, they already know they wont get a loan they just want people to waste their time with their angry answers, if they where get totally ignored and nobody would care problem would be gone maybe atleast i have stop to reply to them now

[John Abraham]

Probably would just be easier to

1) Leave them some negative feedback and encourage others to do the same.
2) Start a flag and encourage others to support it.
3) Add them to your ignore list
4) ~ in your trust list.

This is not a permanent solution. They don't care about those newbie accounts with no forum history. Creating another account and continuing their actions like bounty participants is easy. They Don't have to pay evil fees until they get banned, and their IP gets some evil points. Since asking for a loan in the lending section doesn't violate forum rules, they don't have any chance of getting banned. I noticed some newbies got negative feedback because they requested a loan. I cannot remember who tagged them. Oh, I just found it was Timelord2067 who tagged some newbies for asking for no collateral loans.

For Instance, It looks like this is not the correct use of the feedback system. But I understand his frustration. I don't visit the lending board. So, I am unaware of how many cases you guys have seen. You might be frustrated if you are regular there and see such newbies ask for no collateral loans every day.

[LoyceV]

I've been mentioned several times in this thread, but I had other things to deal with so here's my late reply.

I don't see limiting newbies' ability to post in the lending board as having a big affect on the forum.

It's not big, but it's also another step on a slippery slope. Every time I see someone argue for more restrictions, I appreciate theymos' hands-off approach more.

If a newbie comes here only to request a loan and finds that he's incapable of posting a loan request, one of two things are likely to happen: He'll contribute to the forum until he is capable of posting his loan request, or he'll hit the road and never come back.

I fear a third option: they'll start posting anything they can until they qualify to use the Lending board.

As much as I'd like to see more restrictions for Newbies, I think theymos has a point:

Sometimes I find your response is predictable. When I saw this topic title, I thought if LoyceV commented on this post, He must mention theymos and his famous post about restricting newbies.

Lol. I like the post because it's part of what made me change my mind on adding more restrictions. I'd love to get rid of all the spammers and scammers, but I wouldn't like to join a forum where I'd have to jump through many hoops myself.

I find it helpful to limit newbies from posting on the lending board.

Short-term, you're probably right. I recently responded to a Newbie who asked for a loan. If there's even a slight change the kid is going to learn something here, I consider that a win.

I think we should stop protecting people from taking risks: if they're dumb enough to send their money to a Newbie with no forum history, they're on their own.

You didn't say that. Did you? Oh, I don't think you will say that when you see someone is going to send money to a newbie who doesn't have a good or no forum history.

Allow me to quote theymos again (I bet you didn't see this one coming):

Honestly, I think that someone that naïve can't be protected. Even if every inch of the page had been full of warnings, he still might've fallen for it

I've come to realize some people can't be saved, and may need to learn the hard way. People are still falling for the "money doubling scam", online and IRL. People need to apply common sense before sending some stranger their money.

Besides, a person should not join Bitcointalk solely for the purpose of getting a loan, and I'd imagine you'd agree with me on this one too.

I agree that's not the best motivation to join, but is it really worse than joining to complain about a captcha or not understanding the basics of transaction fees? My point being: no matter why someone joins, they may stick around.

PayPal is another area where scammers are preying on unsuspecting forum members yet neither the Admin/mods, LoyceV nor theymos seem interested in intervention to protect such forum members who have been scammed by their continued silence on the matter.

What do you want me to do if someone gets scammed by/with Paypal? I can tell you I don't like it, but I'm realistic enough to know I can't prevent it either. Literally the first sticky thread on the Currency exchange board starts with "Beware of PayPal". What can I do?

LoyceV is not a staff member.

he's not saying that LoyceV is a staff, he's just listing them, mentioning them in a list  right? Somehow, I think he's right. Maybe the scammers are too many, they can't control everything, or maybe they're just too tired of it.

So, follow-up question: why am I in that list? I have zero control over scammers.

oh, that's not it, I see, I remember shasan loaned a newbie some money 2 days ago, if i remember correctly, sometimes they still put their trust in the newbie, not all  

Did you mean this thread I would like to get 0.005 BTC? you need to recheck the link he posted  

This trolling might actually give other Newbies the wrong impression. If they think a Newbie got a loan, more of them will try the same thing.

Probably would just be easier to

1) Leave them some negative feedback and encourage others to do the same.
2) Start a flag and encourage others to support it.
3) Add them to your ignore list
4) ~ in your trust list.

And then move on. Is it 100% proper use of flags and feedback. Perhaps not, but who cares.

I care! Too many users have inaccurate negative feedback already, and it basically reduces the value of the warning. Excluding a user who hasn't left any feedback doesn't change anything. I agree on point 3) though: ignore them!

[AHOYBRAUSE]

Full support for this suggestion.

Some people on the board ( I think some here know which users I mean ) go and invade other peoples threads trying to spread their agenda like "why can he get a loan and I can't" , "I get treated so unfair", "I have (totally useless) collateral" .

These subjects also write PMs here and even contact via telegram (actually 2 people called me at 3am in the morning with ever having talked to them in private before) . They basically harass other users.

Something should be done against these people and I certainly hope that would be possible in any way!

[DireWolfM14]

I've been mentioned several times in this thread, but I had other things to deal with so here's my late reply.

Damn, that's the worst type of thing to have to deal with.  I hope he's feeling better soon.

I don't see limiting newbies' ability to post in the lending board as having a big affect on the forum.

It's not big, but it's also another step on a slippery slope. Every time I see someone argue for more restrictions, I appreciate theymos' hands-off approach more.

Believe me when I say that freedom is very important to me as well, which is why I love this forum so much.  In general, I don't want to restrict newbies either, but there are other rules and restrictions that are largely in place to improve the quality of the forum, which is the intent of my suggestion.

If a newbie comes here only to request a loan and finds that he's incapable of posting a loan request, one of two things are likely to happen: He'll contribute to the forum until he is capable of posting his loan request, or he'll hit the road and never come back.

I fear a third option: they'll start posting anything they can until they qualify to use the Lending board.

That's kind of a non-issue, really.  If they go about spamming the forum with low value posts, they aren't likely to rank up anyway.  Case in point is user 16xypjnxlrew.  After months of harassing lenders and spamming the lending board, he come to the conclusion that only people who've earned merit will qualify for a non-collateral loan.  So, he ventured out into other areas of the forum with the intent of "contributing," but to this day hasn't earned a single merit.  This is what the merit system is meant to prevent, and it's been working so far.

Probably would just be easier to

1) Leave them some negative feedback and encourage others to do the same.
2) Start a flag and encourage others to support it.
3) Add them to your ignore list
4) ~ in your trust list.

And then move on. Is it 100% proper use of flags and feedback. Perhaps not, but who cares.

This is the current status quo, and it's not great.  Like LoyceV mentioned, it's essentially spamming the trust system with a bunch of red-tagged newbie accounts that are likely to be abandoned, a new one created, and the process just starts all over again.

[ChuckBuck]

So, follow-up question: why am I in that list? I have zero control over scammers.

maybe he sees you as one of the guardians of this forum. Look at what you're contributing, it's even bigger than what a mod can do. It's just that they're taking you in a different way from what you're giving, or it's not, only he knows why

This trolling might actually give other Newbies the wrong impression. If they think a Newbie got a loan, more of them will try the same thing.

LOL   I really thought so, I don't appreciate this jokes  

This is what the merit system is meant to prevent, and it's been working so far.

but the story is he's still spamming even without any merit, he spams many sections, this can't be changed 

[Zilon]

Instead of completely restricting newbies from posting in the lending sub board, their posts containing loan request should be deleted instead that is users can report newbies requesting loans to the board mod and the mod deletes that posts

The restriction might come if the user keep making such posts. My reason is so that if a newbie has any valid contribution to make in the lending sub board their rank shouldn't be a hinderance.

[John Abraham]

Instead of completely restricting newbies from posting in the lending sub board, their posts containing loan request should be deleted instead that is users can report newbies requesting loans to the board mod and the mod deletes that posts.

It's not possible for Mods to keep tracking a user and check how many times he created a thread or posted on a specific topic and asked for a loan. Also, It's not possible for Mods to respond quickly or instantly to delete such posts. It will increase their workload. Moreover, It's nothing compared to bounty boards. But, the community members care about this section because it is a severe section where people look for urgent money, which sometimes helps them survive. Trolls in such sections will ruin it.

The restriction might come if the user keep making such posts. My reason is so that if a newbie has any valid contribution to make in the lending sub board their rank shouldn't be a hinderance.

Have you ever seen a newbie Lender offer loans to others? I always see newbie accounts ask for loans without any forum history. They do not intend to return the amount if they get the loan. They will lose nothing if they don't repay the loan amount. Also, It's not possible to catch them if someone runs away with crypto money. If a newbie has a valid contribution, earning ten merits for his contribution is not very hard.

[DireWolfM14]

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~

I like Zilon's suggestion, but yeah, the mods are up to their elbows already, I don't think asking to pile on any more reports is the right way to handle it.  If the mods are expected to automatically delete any newbie's request for an unsecured loan, then it just shouldn't be allowed in the first place.

Which give me an idea: @theymos, is there a way to add a splash page for low-ranked accounts before they can make a post in certain boards?  Maybe just a little warning that low-ranked accounts asking for unsecured loans can be damaging to the account's health.  A link to the sticky board discussing collateral would also be helpful.  Maybe that would be enough to dissuade the legit newbies from doing something dumb, and any that get through have been sufficiently warned.

Have you ever seen a newbie Lender offer loans to others?

There have been a few over the years that I've been here and active in the lending board.  Most have tapered off their activity, but there is one recent newbie lender who's currently active.  To me it looks like he's harvesting other people's KYC docs, but the jury is still out on that one.

[Litzki1990]

It's not like someone will get a loan just by applying for it. If a new member applies for a loan, the other member of the forum who is interested in giving the loan must consider whether the loan can be given to the new member or on what basis the loan should be given to the new member. But the problem is that this threat is spammed a lot by new members, so to avoid this spamming, it won't hurt to make a rule to prevent new members from posting in this section.

[Timelord2067]

. Oh, I just found it was Timelord2067 who tagged some newbies for asking for no collateral loans.

For Instance, It looks like this is not the correct use of the feedback system. But I understand his frustration.

Incorrect.

I was the third or fourth person to mark the trust feedback pages on each occasion.

Please, Get your facts straight instead of being an echo chamber.

[CryptSafe]

It's not like someone will get a loan just by applying for it. If a new member applies for a loan, the other member of the forum who is interested in giving the loan must consider whether the loan can be given to the new member or on what basis the loan should be given to the new member. But the problem is that this threat is spammed a lot by new members, so to avoid this spamming, it won't hurt to make a rule to prevent new members from posting in this section.

Like I said in my previous post, policy governing the lending thread should be reviewed if there is any already existing so as to avoid further spamming by newbies. It is worrisome that most of these newbies do not read at all they just hop in and start applying for loan without any collateral since the loan is void of collateral. Well, I think this  time it should be clearly and boldly written for easy view for them to see so that no one would cry to have been victimized by anybody when it happens.

With this, the possibility of spamming the thread might likely reduce a bit and every one would take caution while playing by the rules.

[John Abraham]

I like Zilon's suggestion, but yeah, the mods are up to their elbows already, I don't think asking to pile on any more reports is the right way to handle it.

I respect your opinion. But I am sorry. I did not like it.  . Mods can't be online 24/7 and look into the lending board. They have to check all boards equally. I always wondered how Mods always check two posts in a row from the same user and merge them. Do they have any panel where the system automatically filters those posts? If not, they are doing hard work already. This single task needs a lot of time to complete it.

There have been a few over the years that I've been here and active in the lending board. Most have tapered off their activity, but there is one recent newbie lender who's currently active. To me it looks like he's harvesting other people's KYC docs, but the jury is still out on that one.

That's great. I did not know that. I never wanted to take a loan from lending boards (Sometimes, I doubt lenders may reject my applications because I didn't make my name yet, and it would look not good to me). So, I don't know if newbies offer loans these days. But if some newbies do it, it's an exceptional course. If a newbie exclusively uses this forum for his service, He could buy a copper member and do his business. I still stand with my support. Newbies should be banned from the lending board.

Incorrect.

I was the third or fourth person to mark the trust feedback pages on each occasion.

Please, Get your facts straight instead of being an echo chamber.

I wrote what I saw. I did not check everyone's trust page. I have checked your trust page and noticed you had left feedback to newbies asking for no collateral loan. I am not arguing whether it's the correct or incorrect use of feedback.

[Patrol69]

Like I said in my previous post, policy governing the lending thread should be reviewed if there is any already existing so as to avoid further spamming by newbies. It is worrisome that most of these newbies do not read at all they just hop in and start applying for loan without any collateral since the loan is void of collateral. Well, I think this  time it should be clearly and boldly written for easy view for them to see so that no one would cry to have been victimized by anybody when it happens.

With this, the possibility of spamming the thread might likely reduce a bit and every one would take caution while playing by the rules.

I have also seen many new members who apply for loans only after creating an account. I don't understand on what basis they apply and on what basis the lender will grant them the loan. Due to their activities, many are frustrated and even those who qualify for loans are often denied loans. It would have been better if the posting rules were such that some members of certain ranks could apply for loans. If such steps are taken to prevent spamming, it will be good for both lenders and borrowers.

[armanda90]

You can removed newbies posting in lending board actually with your board topic, its not has reason accepted newbies account apply for loan because their account not has values yet. Many newbies account try to apply loan not only with your loan board only but also I saw they are applying with another loan board. I don't know what are the values of their account and brave for applying loan with higher amount and I saw with this user swiftxi not only apply loan in one board but try with another board. First applying loan have rejected but he tried on another loan board without think the reason first applying have been reject.

[Timelord2067]

I am not arguing whether it's the correct or incorrect use of feedback.

That might be because you have already stated your opposition ?

. Oh, I just found it was Timelord2067 who tagged some newbies for asking for no collateral loans.

For Instance, It looks like this is not the correct use of the feedback system

Can I send you a PM, please?

[John Abraham]

That might be because you have already stated your opposition ?

I don't want to comment on this matter. I don't know if you get me wrong. But I did not mean your feedback was inaccurate. I said it might look like the feedback is inaccurate at first impression. But, if you are regular there, You will understand the frustration.

Can I send you a PM, please?

Sure! Why not. For whatever reason, you can PM me anytime. I am open to discussing anything.

I have also seen many new members who apply for loans only after creating an account. I don't understand on what basis they apply and on what basis the lender will grant them the loan.

They apply for no collateral loan and their cause is Trust me, bro! They are not familiar with this forum, for sure. It's not like they don't know their loan request will be rejected. They are just trying their luck, knowing their loan request won't be granted.

[Porfirii]

I'm not a big fan of implementing new restrictions in a forum where newbies can't post images anymore, find it hard to use some functionalities because of time limitations like the one in the search option, can't wear an avatar and can't post in certain sections like Ivory Tower, Archival or Serious Discussion. Don't take me wrong, I think that these restrictions are there for a reason, but it is also true that they are an entry barrier for many.

If newbies were restricted from posting in the lending board, what would be the difference between that and also restricting them from participating in other sections inside Marketplace, or in the Alternate cryptocurrencies board? If the goal is to avoid scams, wouldn't it be more beneficial to forbid the newbies to post scam ICO ANNs or fraudulent services? IMO, no: that way we would be judging the just for sinners.

I consider that a large part of the active members of the forum are quite direct and critical to some extent. If something smells like a scam, one or another will point it out. I personally find it better to control that in a case by case basis rather than to prefer draconian measures like the proposed one.