Miners Should Consider the Lower Transaction Fees

[Z-tight]

Literally speaking, we know the miners it is their way to make money from what they do once a user makes a transaction in cryptocurrency or bitcoin. That's why they made the mining fee universal. And honestly, there is nothing we can do regardless of the amount they demand in fees but to follow if we have no choice.

Miners don't demand or set transaction fees, it is you the person who wants to create a transaction that decides and set the transaction fee you wish to pay for your transaction to be confirmed. What miners do is to pick transactions depending on the fee paid, the space remaining in a block and how congested the network is. If the mempool is less congested, a fee rate of 1 sat/vByte will be confirmed soon, but if very congested miners will prioritize the transactions that pay the higher fees.

Then I also noticed that it looks like the hyped up in ordinals or brc20 is over, so I think everything will gradually return to normal, so let's see and wait for the result.

If you check https://mempool.space/, you'll see that you can now even get you transaction confirmed fast with a fee rate of 27 sats/vByte, and there is < 250 uncomfirmed transactions in the mempool, so truly things are cooling off.

[1714644978]

1714644978

[Agbe]

There used to be rules that allowed you to send transactions for free:

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Miner_fees#Historic_rules_for_free_transactions

A nice piece of history

The bottom line right now is that mining is a business... If a miner can collect 1Btc in fees from a block, why would he opt to only collect 0.1 Btc in fees by selecting fees with a lower fee (in sats/vbyte) instead of the ones with a higher fee? If would make no economic sense for them... They invested a lot, they have ASIC's, they have mining rooms, they sometimes need to pay wages, rent and taxes...

It's not that it's impossible for them to do this, it would just make little sense to do so (from their point of view)

I am not saying that they should not mine the whales first but they should carry along the lower transactions at the same time with the whales and that will make everyone feels better and belong but as it is now, the Miners are abandoning the lower transaction fee for the whales. Lower transaction fees are kept unconfirmed for days or weeks yet unconfirmed. And because of that I have cancelled two good transactions and each cancellation, I paid double of the transaction fee for it. And that means I have lost a lot of coins in this period. And I believed it as happened to other users too because of the waiting period is too long so we have to cancel the transactions.

[Z-tight]

I am not saying that they should not mine the whales first but they should carry along the lower transactions at the same time with the whales and that will make everyone feels better and belong but as it is now, the Miners are abandoning the lower transaction fee for the whales. Lower transaction fees are kept unconfirmed for days or weeks yet unconfirmed. And because of that I have cancelled two good transactions and each cancellation, I paid double of the transaction fee for it. And that means I have lost a lot of coins in this period. And I believed it as happened to other users too because of the waiting period is too long so we have to cancel the transactions.

You do not understand how transaction fees work, miners do not look at the amount of BTC's sent, E.G right now if i want to send 0.1 BTC to Alice and i use a fee rate of 5 sats/vByte, and you want to send 0.01 BTC to Bob and you use a fee rate of 30 sats/vbye for your transaction, miners will confirm your transaction first, even though the amount you sent is smaller than mine. What miners look at before a transaction is added into a block is the TX fees paid, the MB space that is left in a block and how congested the network is.

If you make a transaction with a low fee and get tired of waiting, you can use rbf to bump the fees and get the transaction confirmed, or if you are sending to your own address you can use cpfp to speed up the transaction and get it to be confirmed faster.

[Agbe]

You do not understand how transaction fees work, miners do not look at the amount of BTC's sent, E.G right now if i want to send 0.1 BTC to Alice and i use a fee rate of 5 sats/vByte, and you want to send 0.01 BTC to Bob and you use a fee rate of 30 sats/vbye for your transaction, miners will confirm your transaction first, even though the amount you sent is smaller than mine. What miners look at before a transaction is added into a block is the TX fees paid, the MB space that is left in a block and how congested the network is.

If you make a transaction with a low fee and get tired of waiting, you can use rbf to bump the fees and get the transaction confirmed, or if you are sending to your own address you can use cpfp to speed up the transaction and get it to be confirmed faster.

Wow! I am getting your part of the explanation but remain small which I will understand the whole transaction fee issue. Now if you send 0.01 BTC to Alex with the fee rate of 5 sats/vByte and I also send that the same amount of bitcoin 0.01 BTC to Favour with the fee rate of 30 sats/vByte and which you did the transaction before me but base on it that your fee rate is small and mine is big so they mine first before yours and if there is any other person who send again with high fee they would still mine the person own again and all these while you are waiting, and if you can not wait you can bump the fee but if you don't have coins to bump the fee again what will you do? So you are to wait for weeks. This is what I am saying, they should also consider the lower fees because they don't know what is happening from those people end. Most of them are even frustrated on this issue of waiting.  Well I understand you to some extent.

[mocacinno]

--snip--

 Wow! I am getting your part of the explanation but remain small which I will understand the whole transaction fee issue. Now if you send 0.01 BTC to Alex with the fee rate of 5 sats/vByte and I also send that the same amount of bitcoin 0.01 BTC to Favour with the fee rate of 30 sats/vByte and which you did the transaction before me but base on it that your fee rate is small and mine is big so they mine first before yours and if there is any other person who send again with high fee they would still mine the person own again and all these while you are waiting, and if you can not wait you can bump the fee but if you don't have coins to bump the fee again what will you do? So you are to wait for weeks. This is what I am saying, they should also consider the lower fees because they don't know what is happening from those people end. Most of them are even frustrated on this issue of waiting.  Well I understand you to some extent.

Since you only understand part of the explanations... I'll try to simplify things a bit... Mind you, this simplification is not 100% correct, but it does give you an idear of what's happening when you press the "send" button in your bitcoin wallet...

Creating a transaction is basically letting your wallet software creating a piece of text saying:

Code:

i controll 
* input AAAAAAAAAA:1 with value 0.25 BTC
* input BBBBBBBBBB:3  with value 0.05 BTC 
* input CCCCCCCCCC:9 with value 0.01 BTC

i want to spend those 3 inputs i controll to fund 2 addresses: 
* Address1 with a value of 0.1 BTC 
* address2 with 0.2 BTC.

You then sign this piece of text using the private keys belonging to the addresses that were funded with input AAAAAAAAAA:1, BBBBBBBBBB:3 and CCCCCCCCCC:9

As you can imagine, the actual size of the text (the number of characters) does not depend on the value of the inputs or the outputs (it doesn't matter if you send 0.00000100 or 1.00000000 bitcoin when it comes to the size of the text)... The size depends on how you write this piece of text, on the number of inputs you use and on the number of outputs you generate (the more inputs/outputs that need to be specified, the longer the text and the more characters are being used).

When a miner is selecting transactions for the block he/she is trying to solve, he makes the sum of the value of all inputs and substracts the sum of the value of all outputs. In our case, that's (0.25 + 0.05 + 0.01) - (0.1 + 0.3) = 0.01. This 0.01 is called the "fee". A miner solving a block is allowed to add one coinbase transaction to the block paying the block reward to his own address, but he can also add the sum of all fees of all transactions he puts in a block.

In times of mempool congestion, the miner starts making a jigsaw puzzle: he tries to make the sum of all fees of all transactions in the block he/she is trying to solve as high as possible. He can do this by prioritizing the transactions with the highest fee per byte of transaction data. Like we saw above, these bytes of transaction data have nothing to do with the value!!!

A miner can only add 1 Mb of "actual" transaction data in one block, and up to 3 Mb of witness data (in our example, this basically boils down to 3 Mb of signatures. This isn't always true, sometimes the signatures also need to fit in the 1Mb). This is why people outbid eachother... The higher the fee per (v)byte of transaction data, the more incentive a miner has to add your tx to the block he/she is trying to solve, irregardless of the value you wish to transmit.

Each 2016 blocks, the netwerk adjust the difficulty, making it easyer or harder to find a block, making sure the average time between two blocks is always ~10 minutes. Combined with the fixed size of 1 Mb of "actual" transaction data, you can see the network can handle about 6 Mb of actual transaction data per hour, and there's not much we can do to change this without creating a hard fork. So, it's either waiting or outbidding others... You can optimize your transactions a little bit, but there's no magic bullet. Asking the miners to pick transactions with a lower fee basically isn't going to happen. They made a lot of investments, and they want to earn money...

rbf, cpfp, paying tx accelerators,... are all basically tools to let you increase the fee you pay to the miners in one way or another... They help, but you could/should have payed an "optimal" fee to begin with... The only silver bullet might be owning or being friends with an administrator of a HUGE pool. They can increase the priority of your transaction for their pool (there's no guarantee their pool will solve the next couple of blocks tough). Transaction broadcasting services or people that promise to "mine" your transactions are scams... IF they cannot prove the own a huge bitcoin mining pool, there's not much they can do.

[Marykeller]

Then I also noticed that it looks like the hyped up in ordinals or brc20 is over, so I think everything will gradually return to normal, so let's see and wait for the result.

The result of bitcoin transaction fees now is cool because things are gradually getting back to normal. The high transaction rates from a week ago are no longer present. With your crypto wallet, you can now perform a transaction for as little as $2 and have your bitcoin delivered quickly and without much wait by specifying the fees byte you want your bitcoin to be transacted on. I pity those that have their bitcoin transacted at high fees a week ago

[stompix]

Miners Should Consider the Lower Transaction Fees

And people transferring coins should also pay once in a while my electrical bill, wouldn't that be fair? 

There are 1000 topics with 1 million answers on what happens when the block reward is gone so miners will survive on fees and everyone says the network will be secure, there won't be any problem, and the miners will be happy with the fees, but when briefly for 5-10 blocks the fees hit the same level as the reward everyone as saying they will not pay that much! How is this going to work?
Do you want cheap transactions and a system that requires billions for an attacker to even try damaging it? You can't have both!

Now if you send 0.01 BTC to Alex with the fee rate of 5 sats/vByte and I also send that the same amount of bitcoin 0.01 BTC to Favour with the fee rate of 30 sats/vByte and which you did the transaction before me but base on it that your fee rate is small and mine is big so they mine first before yours and if there is any other person who send again with high fee they would still mine the person own again and all these while you are waiting, and if you can not wait you can bump the fee but if you don't have coins to bump the fee again what will you do? So you are to wait for weeks. This is what I am saying, they should also consider the lower fees because they don't know what is happening from those people end. Most of them are even frustrated on this issue of waiting.  Well I understand you to some extent.

If miners would consider low fees based on let's say the time of the tx, which is not really a reliable method but let's get with this:
An attacker will simply generate 500 000 transactions, and pay a little over 3 cents per tx, that's $15000 a day and the whole day miners will just mine his tx and nobody else's. So for half a million a month, you will make the chain unusable!

Let the lower transaction should be charged less and the very big whale transactions should be done according to the unit. Don't equalize everyone as one and charge them equal.

First, Bitcoin has nothing in common with socialism, so the whole charge of the rich more and giving the poor for free is simply not doable here.
Second, If I make a tx in which I spend out of 1 BTC 0.0005 for something and the rest goes to a different address of mine, not the changed address, how am I going to be taxed? For the whole 1 BTC or for the 0.0005?

Sorry but BTC is the perfect example of a free market where the law or demand and offer are set in stone.
If you want progressive taxation, use Western Union!

[mikeywith]

I am not saying that they should not mine the whales first but they should carry along the lower transactions at the same time with the whales and that will make everyone feels better

That would make miners feel worse, not better, it would certainly make you feel better, but sure thing is, miners couldn't care less about how anyone else feels.

the Miners are abandoning the lower transaction fee for the whales.

So what? someone outbid you and got their transactions confirmed faster, you do that almost every time you transact bitcoin, your wallet checks pending transactions, sees a dozen of them paying 1 sat/byte, sets 2 sat/byte, and your transaction is confirmed in the next block, those poor folks have to wait for your transaction to confirm first before they could have theirs confirmed, you didn't feel bad about it, did you?

[Lida93]

Every business man is in pursuit of profit and you don't expect them to reject a period of inflows of profit when it arises. From how I see it, it's not even the miners that are the cause of this transaction few hike that currently determines the period or duration for any transaction to be completed. It's rather the senders of the transaction that are determining which transaction the miners should attend to immediately by the amount of fees they attached to their transaction.

Just like the invisible hand of market that's exactly the case with crypto transaction delays and fast transacts right now. It's no fault of the miners.

[so98nn]

There used to be rules that allowed you to send transactions for free:

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Miner_fees#Historic_rules_for_free_transactions

A nice piece of history

The bottom line right now is that mining is a business... If a miner can collect 1Btc in fees from a block, why would he opt to only collect 0.1 Btc in fees by selecting fees with a lower fee (in sats/vbyte) instead of the ones with a higher fee? If would make no economic sense for them... They invested a lot, they have ASIC's, they have mining rooms, they sometimes need to pay wages, rent and taxes...

It's not that it's impossible for them to do this, it would just make little sense to do so (from their point of view)

That make sense why centralized system always has  fixed fee + "X" % variable fees when you are doing international transactions and in some cases local transactions. They had improvised the whole payment system with the time no doubt about it.

When it comes to the miners, well the market is entirely your own imagination due to it's decentralization. Though they have invested heavily the investment could have certain ROI so taking into that consideration one can always keep the fee structure of "Y" fixed fee + "X" % variable fees. This way not matter how small transaction is, it can have rightful fees. It will also help miners to predict their ROI considering various factors such as fee collection amount, their mining hashrate and expenses etc.

Hope so someday there will be solution like this.

[Agbe]

From how I see it, it's not even the miners that are the cause of this transaction few hike that currently determines the period or duration for any transaction to be completed. It's rather the senders of the transaction that are determining which transaction the miners should attend to immediately by the amount of fees they attached to their transaction.

Just like the invisible hand of market that's exactly the case with crypto transaction delays and fast transacts right now. It's no fault of the miners.

How? Please put more highlight on your point of the argument. Do you really understand the OP before make your point or you just saw the topic and made your comment to complete your weekly quota? My guy if you understand the Op and the previous commitments made by me with others you would understand that I am not talking about who set the transaction fee or whatever. I said again and again and lastly but not finally making it clear that let the Miners should consider the lower transaction fees in the Mempool on the blockchain, as they are Mining the higher fees they should also mine the lower fees alongside with the others. So I don't know where all these Miners are not setting transaction fees, they are for business. Aba.

[Z-tight]

I said again and again and lastly but not finally making it clear that let the Miners should consider the lower transaction fees in the Mempool on the blockchain, as they are Mining the higher fees they should also mine the lower fees alongside with the others.

And i hope you also now understand how miners prioritize transactions, they are not censoring transactions with lower tx fees, there is a fee rate attached for high, low and medium priority transactions. If Bob creates a transaction and uses a fee rate for high priority, while Alice creates a transaction and uses a fee rate for low priority, the chances of Bob's transaction being added to a block is higher than that of Alice's, it doesn't mean that Alice's transaction wouldn't be confirmed and added to a block, but she will have to wait, and if the mempool is congested and there are more people outbidding Alice, her transaction will be pushed further down. If Alice is tired of waiting though, she can use rbf, cpfp and transaction accelerators to get it confirmed faster.

[philipma1957]

From how I see it, it's not even the miners that are the cause of this transaction few hike that currently determines the period or duration for any transaction to be completed. It's rather the senders of the transaction that are determining which transaction the miners should attend to immediately by the amount of fees they attached to their transaction.

Just like the invisible hand of market that's exactly the case with crypto transaction delays and fast transacts right now. It's no fault of the miners.

How? Please put more highlight on your point of the argument. Do you really understand the OP before make your point or you just saw the topic and made your comment to complete your weekly quota? My guy if you understand the Op and the previous commitments made by me with others you would understand that I am not talking about who set the transaction fee or whatever. I said again and again and lastly but not finally making it clear that let the Miners should consider the lower transaction fees in the Mempool on the blockchain, as they are Mining the higher fees they should also mine the lower fees alongside with the others. So I don't know where all these Miners are not setting transaction fees, they are for business. Aba.

There are five major pools those pools can do as they please setting fees.

Me as a miner can pick one of them but they set the tx they white list not me.

Ie

binance 7%
viabtc 9%

f2pool 13%

antpool 24%
foundry 29%

https://www.blockchain.com/explorer/charts/pools

look at the list

So they make 82% of the days blocks.

If I don’t pick one of them I could go days with out income.

Your gripe is with the pool owners not the miners.

only viabtc offers a free push for a stuck tx and you need to have done at least 12 sats or maybe 10 sats a byte. to push it.

So as a user of btc you need to know when the mempool clogs and then be sure to make a tx of 11 or 12 sats and then use viabtc to push the tx.

also if you think you know btc how bout the guy that spent 400 sats to rush his tx you want to fuck him or her or he she or it .

You should be asking why doesn’t every pool over 20eh do what viabtc does.

Then 82% of the blocks made could be pushed for free if they paid 10-12 sats a byte.


Wait a few ½ ings this will be worse unless LN is done perfectly.

some rich fucker is looking to do that. I will look for the link.

[dansus021]

No Bro and welcome to the harsh world I mean that is obvious to approve the high transaction fee first if miners approves a lower transaction then there would be no High transaction fee out there.

Although if you have pool or free tx accelerator you can still get approved with low fee, although I think mixed fee would be okay but I don't know would be approved by community like in one block 85% of transaction filled with high fee and rest of it filled with low fee I think this is a good idea

[bettercrypto]

Literally speaking, we know the miners it is their way to make money from what they do once a user makes a transaction in cryptocurrency or bitcoin. That's why they made the mining fee universal. And honestly, there is nothing we can do regardless of the amount they demand in fees but to follow if we have no choice.

Miners don't demand or set transaction fees, it is you the person who wants to create a transaction that decides and set the transaction fee you wish to pay for your transaction to be confirmed. What miners do is to pick transactions depending on the fee paid, the space remaining in a block and how congested the network is. If the mempool is less congested, a fee rate of 1 sat/vByte will be confirmed soon, but if very congested miners will prioritize the transactions that pay the higher fees.

Then I also noticed that it looks like the hyped up in ordinals or brc20 is over, so I think everything will gradually return to normal, so let's see and wait for the result.

If you check https://mempool.space/, you'll see that you can now even get you transaction confirmed fast with a fee rate of 27 sats/vByte, and there is < 250 uncomfirmed transactions in the mempool, so truly things are cooling off.

Oh Yes, I was wrong in what I mentioned, thank you for correcting what I said, we are the ones who set in which we choose lower or higher fees, I accept the error if mentioned at this point.

      But at the moment I can't see in Electrum how many sats fee rates will be deducted, because last week when I transacted with Bitcoin the fees were around 12k sats, I hope this week it will be lower.

[Z-tight]

But at the moment I can't see in Electrum how many sats fee rates will be deducted, because last week when I transacted with Bitcoin the fees were around 12k sats, I hope this week it will be lower.

In Electrum you can set the fee rate you want to use, that is the sats/vByte, you can also check in https://mempool.space/ to know the fee rate to use if you want your transaction to be confirmed quickly. But the exact TX fee you are going to pay depends on the size of your transaction, that's why you may want to consolidate your inputs when transaction fees are low, so that when the network is congested as it is now, you will pay a lower TX fee. In your electrum wallet you will see the transaction fee that will be deducted once you choose the fee rate you want to use.

[Agbe]

But at the moment I can't see in Electrum how many sats fee rates will be deducted, because last week when I transacted with Bitcoin the fees were around 12k sats, I hope this week it will be lower.

In Electrum you can set the fee rate you want to use, that is the sats/vByte, you can also check in https://mempool.space/ to know the fee rate to use if you want your transaction to be confirmed quickly. But the exact TX fee you are going to pay depends on the size of your transaction, that's why you may want to consolidate your inputs when transaction fees are low, so that when the network is congested as it is now, you will pay a lower TX fee. In your electrum wallet you will see the transaction fee that will be deducted once you choose the fee rate you want to use.

Even though you can control the fee rate in the Electrum Wallet to the lowest part, the fee is still high. And if you take it to the middle part, they will even warn you that the fee is too high. Look at the lastest fee rate in the Electrum Wallet.

That amount of the transaction fee is still high for small amount of transaction.

[Z-tight]

Even though you can control the fee rate in the Electrum Wallet to the lowest part, the fee is still high. And if you take it to the middle part, they will even warn you that the fee is too high. Look at the lastest fee rate in the Electrum Wallet.
....
That amount of the transaction fee is still high for small amount of transaction.

You are using the ETA fee estimator, if you change it to Static, you will be able to move the slider to 1 sats/vByte, but when you use ETA, your wallet software will suggest the best fee rate that can get your transaction added into the next mined blocks based on how congested or free the mempool is. So if you want to move the fee rate to as low as 1 sats/vByte, change it from ETA to Static, and use https://mempool.space/ to choose your priority.

Take note that the total amount in fees you will pay is based on the size of your transaction. On estimate your TX with fee rate of 21.4 sats/vBye will get your TX in a block within 25 blocks, so if you change it to Static and use a lower fee rate, you may wait longer and even have to use rbf to bump it.

[Agbe]

You are using the ETA fee estimator, if you change it to Static, you will be able to move the slider to 1 sats/vByte,

The whole discussion here is just understanding, we have not really getting ourselves well on the topic, we are all interested to bring out our thoughts, ideas and the ways we think that should be. Okay let use see the topic again.

Miners Should Consider the Lower Transaction Fees

I created this thread based on Mempool and Static. Just that I didn't specify them but was trying to see if members would understand what I mean. I was trying to say Miners should consider the transactions from Mempool and Static and even STATIC and not Mempool. Because if you used Static for transaction it takes weeks and yet the transaction would not confirmed. I make a transaction with Static and the transaction took about two weeks plus and I have to bump it to Mempool with a higher fee in the time of the high fee rate.

but when you use ETA, your wallet software will suggest the best fee rate that can get your transaction added into the next mined blocks based on how congested or free the mempool is. So if you want to move the fee rate to as low as 1 sats/vByte,

ETA transaction is within the day, sometimes is within 3 to 6 hours all depends on the congestion of the block but the transaction fee is something else. It is very high. That is why I was saying that, when they are Mining the high transaction fees from the ETA they should also put in mind on the transactions on the static queue. Even if it is 20 to 24 hours at least there will be hope for the poor.

[Z-tight]

we have not really getting ourselves well on the topic, we are all interested to bring out our thoughts, ideas and the ways we think that should be. Okay let use see the topic again.

You are incorrect again, i have been replying objectively, what you have been told by most members in this thread is objective facts about how mining works, it has nothing to do with their thoughts or ideas.

I was trying to say Miners should consider the transactions from Mempool and Static and even STATIC and not Mempool.

And you have also been told how how miners add TX into a block, it does not have a thing to do with the fee estimation you used, though fee estimator helps you choose the fee rate for quick confirmation. TX fees, network congestion, and vMB space available in the block, these are what miners put into consideration before adding a TX into a block. I don't know why you continue to repeat this when you have been corrected on it.

Because if you used Static for transaction it takes weeks and yet the transaction would not confirmed. I make a transaction with Static and the transaction took about two weeks plus and I have to bump it to Mempool with a higher fee in the time of the high fee rate.

Whichever fee estimator you use, you can surely adjust the fee slider and choose your own fee rate. Even if you use static, just check https://mempool.space/ and adjust the slider to the fee rate for high or medium priority for your TX to be confirmed faster. Your transaction was stuck because you used a low fee rate and the network was congested.

ETA transaction is within the day, sometimes is within 3 to 6 hours all depends on the congestion of the block but the transaction fee is something else. It is very high. That is why I was saying that, when they are Mining the high transaction fees from the ETA they should also put in mind on the transactions on the static queue. Even if it is 20 to 24 hours at least there will be hope for the poor.

You have been told throughout this thread how miners proritize transactions they add to a block. So this discussion should already be in bed.