Miners Should Consider the Lower Transaction Fees

[ABCbits]

Miners Should Consider the Lower Transaction Fees

I created this thread based on Mempool and Static. Just that I didn't specify them but was trying to see if members would understand what I mean. I was trying to say Miners should consider the transactions from Mempool and Static and even STATIC and not Mempool. Because if you used Static for transaction it takes weeks and yet the transaction would not confirmed. I make a transaction with Static and the transaction took about two weeks plus and I have to bump it to Mempool with a higher fee in the time of the high fee rate.

There are so many wrong things with your statement.
1. Term "Mempool", "Static" and "ETA" refer to name of the algorithm to choose TX fee on Electrum wallet.
2. Miner don't care which algorithm you use to choose TX fee. All that matters is transaction fee rate (sat/vB).
3. The reason transaction which created with "Static" fee took long time to confirm is probably you use default/lowest value which is 1 sat/vB.

[1714629805]

1714629805

[sokani]

The hike of the mining Fee in the blockchain is not a new thing in the forum, in fact, it is the trending news in the forum and offline. My simple question is that why the Miners increase the Mining fee and generalize it to everyone both who what to transfer small unit of bitcoin and those who want to transfer big unit are all the sharing the same transaction fees. Why?

Miners are not responsible for increasing the mining fees. It is the wallet owners that increase the transaction fees hoping that miners would consider transactions with higher fees over transactions with lesser fees. They miners only look for and validate transactions with higher fees which is a network rule.

The matter now is getting out of hand because people are getting starve because they can't collect their coins and sell it to feed.

Though, I'm still new in the space and this is my first time of experiencing it but from what I have read this is not the first time the bitcoin network is been faced with high transaction fee issue... It's just a matter of time, and I believe this too shall pass.

[bettercrypto]

We all know that the job of bitcoin miners is to verify and add new blocks to the blockchain. How will they do it? Of course they do this by solving complex math problems. And once a miner solves it, it receives rewards.

      And when a user or bitcoin holder wants to make a transaction, their request will be taken or go to the Bitcoin network and here within this network comes the important role of a miner. And whoever is the first miner to solve the math problem first gets the rewards. In short the fees come from users making transaction fees.

* https://www.javatpoint.com/role-of-bitcoin-miners
* https://river.com/learn/how-bitcoin-fees-work
* https://www.bitpanda.com/academy/en/lessons/what-are-transaction-fees-and-why-do-i-need-to-pay-them/

[stompix]

Miners should definitely consider the lower transaction fees when it comes to cryptocurrency mining.

No, they shouldn't unless you want competition from cheap spam

However, it's important to consider the broader context. Lower transaction fees can lead to increased transaction volume and adoption of the cryptocurrency, which can result in higher demand for mining services. Additionally, low fees can attract more users to use the cryptocurrency for various transactions, potentially driving up its value. Therefore, miners need to assess the balance between transaction fees and the potential benefits of increased adoption and network growth in order to make informed decisions about their mining operations.

Yeah, nice in theory, so damn bad in practice.
You say that low fees will drive adoption but there a few problems with it, if adoption means more transactions it means more transactions in the mempool, it means longer periods you have to wait for your tx.
The miners will not benefit a dime from it since even with mass adoption and billions in fees they will still be forced to include low fee tx, so they will earn still less than they would now by accepting high transaction fees.

I'm quite surprised to see that there are some who hint at thinking that imposing a flat fee of 1 or 5 sat/b might be a solution and suddenly the laws of mathematics will change and everyone will get their tx. No, it won't mean that,  it will only mean that if a larger tumbler or exchanger will drop a shitload of transactions for 2, 4, 12 hours the network will be paralyzed and nobody will be able to get a tx no matter how much they are willing to pay. And this is just setting the stage for the cheapest and dumbest 100℅ chances of success spam attack.

[Synchronice]

The hike of the mining Fee in the blockchain is not a new thing in the forum, in fact, it is the trending news in the forum and offline. My simple question is that why the Miners increase the Mining fee and generalize it to everyone both who what to transfer small unit of bitcoin and those who want to transfer big unit are all the sharing the same transaction fees. Why?

If miners consider the lower transaction fees, won't the mempool be even more abused? Imagine, some people make transactions with high transaction fees and mempool gets clogged, then miners decided to choose transactions with low transaction fees and here again, some of those abusers started to spam network with low transaction fees and it gets clogged in both ways, so, high or low fee doesn't matter, it's clogged. What should people do who want to get transaction confirmed asap? High transaction fee makes no sense, low transaction fee makes no sense because it's abused too. This idea sounds good until you deeply think about it.

[safar1980]

The hike of the mining Fee in the blockchain is not a new thing in the forum, in fact, it is the trending news in the forum and offline. My simple question is that why the Miners increase the Mining fee and generalize it to everyone both who what to transfer small unit of bitcoin and those who want to transfer big unit are all the sharing the same transaction fees. Why?

If miners consider the lower transaction fees, won't the mempool be even more abused? Imagine, some people make transactions with high transaction fees and mempool gets clogged, then miners decided to choose transactions with low transaction fees and here again, some of those abusers started to spam network with low transaction fees and it gets clogged in both ways, so, high or low fee doesn't matter, it's clogged. What should people do who want to get transaction confirmed asap? High transaction fee makes no sense, low transaction fee makes no sense because it's abused too. This idea sounds good until you deeply think about it.

If you are an engineer and maintain equipment in the house.
Residents in the house want the engineer to come to them earlier, they will pay 50 dollars for the service, while others are willing to pay only 5-10 dollars. You won't service $5 orders when there's another $50 order nearby, and miners won't because they have credits, taxes.
They are forced to take the most expensive transactions.

[hZti]

If you are an engineer and maintain equipment in the house.
Residents in the house want the engineer to come to them earlier, they will pay 50 dollars for the service, while others are willing to pay only 5-10 dollars. You won't service $5 orders when there's another $50 order nearby, and miners won't because they have credits, taxes.
They are forced to take the most expensive transactions.

This is actually a very good explanation on how miners will decide which transaction a miner will include! It is just basic economics and will always stay like this. Of course it is not true that the miner is really forced, but he is forced by economics and his energy costs.
What you also need to consider is, that the bitcoin mining protocol was specifically made like this. There would have also been the possibility to set a fixed fee, but this would force people to pay a lot even if their transaction is not in a hurry at all.

[mikeywith]

You are using the ETA fee estimator, if you change it to Static, you will be able to move the slider to 1 sats/vByte, but when you use ETA, your wallet software will suggest the best fee rate that can get your transaction added into the next mined blocks based on how congested or free the mempool is. So if you want to move the fee rate to as low as 1 sats/vByte, change it from ETA to Static, and use https://mempool.space/ to choose your priority.

Take note that the total amount in fees you will pay is based on the size of your transaction. On estimate your TX with fee rate of 21.4 sats/vBye will get your TX in a block within 25 blocks, so if you change it to Static and use a lower fee rate, you may wait longer and even have to use rbf to bump it.

The fee estimation is rather accurate tho, and lower than what it tells you is probably going to be purged, when the average fee is 100 sat/Vbyte and someone broadcast a transaction of 1 sat/Vbyte, why should I keep that on my disk, to begin with? I have limited capacity and computation power, I need my mempool to be as small as possible, filled with the highest bidders, you send me a 1 sat/Vbyte I will get rid of it right away, so will do the others, this way, your wallet might be showing pending confirmation where in reality none of the miners sees it, it's stuck forever.

when they are Mining the high transaction fees from the ETA they should also put in mind on the transactions on the static queue. Even if it is 20 to 24 hours at least there will be hope for the poor.

I want to clear up some terrible misunderstanding here, the ETA and STATIC only exist on your wallet UI, in fact, most wallets don't even use those terms, but whatever, miners don't see that, they don't know what wallet you used, they also happen to not care about all that.

Every miner has his own mempool (another general misunderstanding by the majority of people thinking there is some called THE mempool), as a miner, how do I fill my mempool? people broadcast their transactions from all different locations, wallets, and exchanges, now let's assume you use Electrum wallet, and your wallet is connected to a node, when you create the transaction, and sign it, the wallet will tell the node about your transaction, the wallet node will tell the nodes nearby, the node nearby will tell the next wallet, so you broadcast a transaction from Calrofina, my node (as a miner) is in Singapore, it eventually arrives to my node, I then have to check it against the current transactions in my mempool which can only have store 10 transactions, but the block is limited to 2 transactions for an example:

Code:

TX 1 > paying 10 sats
TX 2 > paying 8 sats
TX 3 > paying 8 sats
TX 4 > Paying 6 sats
TX 5 > paying 4 sats
....
....
TX 10> paying 2 sats

now despite the fact that it's my own mempool and I fill it how I like, it's probably identical to 99.99% of the other mempools that are owned by other miners, not because we know each other, but because it's only logical to do the thing that gets you the most money.

So now, comes your transaction paying 1 sat, given that my mempool is full, I won't even store yours, I still have 10 pending transactions that need 10 more blocks before I run out of transactions, your transaction which I don't know where it came from or how it got it's 1 sat fees, is just useless as far as am concerned.

Ok if I could store 1000 transactions, I will do this

Code:

TX 1 > paying 10 sats Prioty 0
TX 2 > paying 8 sats Priority 1
TX 3 > paying 8 sats Priority 2
TX 4 > Paying 6 sats Priority 3
TX 5 > paying 4 sats 
....
....
TX 10> paying 2 sats
TX 998> paying 1 sat
TX 999 > paying 1 sat (from Agbi) Priority 1000

but then a new transaction is broadcasted paying 11 sats per Vbyte, what will I do? I will delete yours if I have no space left, bring the priority of every transaction 1 bit higher, and put that 11 sat on top.


All of this happens without knowing what wallet or settings were used, I just know how much every transaction is going to pay, and that's all that matters as a miner.

[Agbe]

So now, comes your transaction paying 1 sat, given that my mempool is full, I won't even store yours, I still have 10 pending transactions that need 10 more blocks before I run out of transactions, your transaction which I don't know where it came from or how it got it's 1 sat fees, is just useless as far as am concerned.

Thank you very much for the comprehensive explanation of the argument here. But I still have some questions. If 1sat/vByte is useless as you said because you have seen 100 sat/vB why the 1 sat/vB is added to the blockchain since miners will not mine it for the person because it is too small. Why? Why the 100 sat/vB can't be set as the standard sat/vByte for the transaction process so that anyone who is making any transactions will know that that is the minimum standard and if the person will like to increase the fee then that is for the best for the person. So why?  I understand everything now but just want to clear on that part. Thanks

[safar1980]

If you are an engineer and maintain equipment in the house.
Residents in the house want the engineer to come to them earlier, they will pay 50 dollars for the service, while others are willing to pay only 5-10 dollars. You won't service $5 orders when there's another $50 order nearby, and miners won't because they have credits, taxes.
They are forced to take the most expensive transactions.

This is actually a very good explanation on how miners will decide which transaction a miner will include! It is just basic economics and will always stay like this. Of course it is not true that the miner is really forced, but he is forced by economics and his energy costs.
What you also need to consider is, that the bitcoin mining protocol was specifically made like this. There would have also been the possibility to set a fixed fee, but this would force people to pay a lot even if their transaction is not in a hurry at all.

If it were possible to set a mandatory fee for all transactions, then it would be possible to spam the blockchain by creating large queues of transactions in the mempool. And if you need a fast transaction, then you must set a high commission so that the miner agrees to process it first.

[mikeywith]

But I still have some questions. If 1sat/vByte is useless as you said because you have seen 100 sat/vB why the 1 sat/vB is added to the blockchain since miners will not mine it for the person because it is too small. Why?

It's added to mempools because it's a valid transaction, and 1 sat still = money as miners as concerned, so they keep you in the queue until they are done with the higher fees, unless there queue is full, then they will kick you out.

Why the 100 sat/vB can't be set as the standard sat/vByte for the transaction process so that anyone who is making any transactions will know that that is the minimum standard and if the person will like to increase the fee then that is for the best for the person. So why?  I understand everything now but just want to clear on that part. Thanks

Use a proper wallet to solve this issue, many wallets are terrible in estimation fees by either underpaying or overpaying, I have yet to see a wallet that does that perfectly every single time, I don't transact much so I can't give any reviews of what wallet is best in the "auto-estimation" part, I know exchanges will over charge you to be on the safe side, but wallets, I would just use one of the mempools like https://jochen-hoenicke.de/ or https://mempool.space/ to see what is everyone is currently paying, how many transactions are paying x and decide my own fees accordingly.

There can't be a standard sat/Vbyte forever, it all depends on what people are paying now if there are only 3k transactions paying 100 sat/Vbyte, and then the rest are all paying 10 sat/Vbyte, it would be plain stupid to pay 100 sat, those would clear in 1-2 blocks and then the 10 sat/Vbyte will go through, all this calculations and estimation need to be done manually or by trusting that your wallet is doing it right (not making you pay way more than you could get away with and not risking your transaction to be stuck for days).

It's almost impossible to guarantee a transaction to be confirmed in the next block or two since people can outbid you, which is why using RBF is a must just in case shit hits the ceilling.

[philipma1957]

And to completely blow your mind a pool can white list whatever tx they want to.

Ie a large pool say ant pool makes 25% of the blocks.

If they want to they can whitelist only tx at 2 sats a byte

or 54 sats a byte now it sounds crazy as to why they may want to.

They could block the tx's by refusing all but 300+ sats a byte.

Now 1 pool with 25% is not enough to really kill off all ex's but the top 3 pools could slow the chain down bigly.

https://www.blockchain.com/explorer/charts/pools

...

Miner / Pool  Percent

Foundry USA  30.882%
AntPool.         20.915%
F2Pool            16.176%
Binance Pool     8.333%
ViaBTC             7.190%

Unknown         4.739%

Mara Pool.            3.268%
Braiins Pool          2.288%
BTC.com              2.124% ...

Between whitelist and black list those pools

Could wreak havoc with the tx fee structure.

Just think if the top 5 which have 83% of the hash set blacklist of all tx under 50 sats a byte

miners won't switch from them cause 50 sats a bye = 50 x 2 mill or 1 btc a block

anyone remember the power opec had over oil prices well the fees of blocks could well be like oil and those top pools could blacklist any tx they want .

50 sats and up could start tomorrow.

so 50 x 227 = 0.00011350 btc would be lowest amount for a tx

[philipma1957]

that would be $ 3.18 a tx

the only thing that would hold it in check would be LN

[WayneBunbury]

to the op we miners DONOT set the fees  We only Eurn the Tx  

heres how it works

Who controls Bitcoin transactions?
Bitcoin does not have a central authority. The bitcoin network is peer-to-peer, without central servers. The network also has no central storage; the bitcoin ledger is distributed. The ledger is public; anybody can store it on a computer. Leger known as blockchain

from forbs this year  

Why is my Bitcoin transaction fee so high?
The increased demand for Bitcoin's block space led to the corresponding rise in bitcoin transaction fees. The blockchain backlog got so congested that the crypto exchange Binance paused withdrawals for almost two hours on Saturday, May 6. And this may only be the beginning.8 May 2023

from bitcoin.com  
Does bitcoin charge transaction fees?
Bitcoin transaction fees are paid in bitcoin and Ethereum transaction fees are paid in Ethereum. As you'd expect, simpler actions have smaller fees while complicated actions cost more. Additionally, different blockchains have lower or higher transaction fees for similar actions

if you whant plain english read this ------> https://99bitcoins.com/bitcoin/fees/ it gives a brakedown of the process  and it clearly points out that We miners DONOT set the Fees its the User (sender) who sets the fee  exsample if i wanted to send 2 dollers woth of bitcoin to my other bitcoin adress from my bitcoin core wallet i am promited to set a tx tx = transfure fee  if i set the tx as 0.000001 btc witch is varry low miners will look at it and deside it ant woth it and wont touch it  becose 1 it isnt enuff to cover the cost of power we face in the form of a power bill  now if jo blow sends the same amount of bitcoin ie 2 dollers werth but he offers up a tx of 0.00090 btc Miners will look at it and take that tx why becose it higher but igf a big time person sends the same ammount ie 2 dollers werth of btc but offers up 0.001 btc The miners will take that insted as i said you can read the prosess witch is found at https://99bitcoins.com/bitcoin/fees/ that brakes down the bitcoin process

[Patrol69]

A few days ago Bitcoin transaction charges were almost normal but lately Bitcoin transaction charges have increased a lot. Those who need to trade small amounts of bitcoins will not be able to trade bitcoins at this time because the transaction fees for small amounts of bitcoins will be very high. If people can't transact Bitcoin properly then people will move away from this coin and show more interest in coins with relatively low transaction fees. So Bitcoin transaction fees should be somewhat normal for everyone's convenience.

[safar1980]

A few days ago Bitcoin transaction charges were almost normal but lately Bitcoin transaction charges have increased a lot. Those who need to trade small amounts of bitcoins will not be able to trade bitcoins at this time because the transaction fees for small amounts of bitcoins will be very high. If people can't transact Bitcoin properly then people will move away from this coin and show more interest in coins with relatively low transaction fees. So Bitcoin transaction fees should be somewhat normal for everyone's convenience.

There are no large trading fees on centralized exchanges, and Bitcoin users will transact as long as it suits them.
And the growth of commissions is influenced by a large number of tokens in the bitcoin blockchain.
But it is good for miners, so problems for users give profit to miners.

[Agbe]

A few days ago Bitcoin transaction charges were almost normal but lately Bitcoin transaction charges have increased a lot. Those who need to trade small amounts of bitcoins will not be able to trade bitcoins at this time because the transaction fees for small amounts of bitcoins will be very high. If people can't transact Bitcoin properly then people will move away from this coin and show more interest in coins with relatively low transaction fees. So Bitcoin transaction fees should be somewhat normal for everyone's convenience.

The sole purpose of this thread is this. But I was attacked from all angles though it is good because I have seen different ideas. But this days the transaction is coming down again to the way it was. Though the fee is still high compared to the first time I started the bitcoin journey. safar1980 there are some exchange platforms that charges higher. Busha in Nigeria charge high and other exchange which I know. It is only well known exchange that charges small to attract more customers.