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Author Topic: (Ordinals) BRC-20 needs to be removed  (Read 7056 times)
BlackHatCoiner
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May 18, 2024, 08:16:53 AM
Merited by LoyceV (4)
 #521

well yeah obviously, there's got to be some limits but no one is doing larger than M=N=15 most likely and i doubt people even do anything that big. But there might be 5 of 7 but i think bitcoin stamps only does 2 of 3.
Define "bitcoin stamps". It is completely valid to spend from a 15-of-15 multi-sig.

so there's not going to be any justification for saying that 2 of 3 multisig transactions even the ones from bitcoin stamps are not welcome on the bitcoin network. 
I still don't understand the point you're making. There is no justification to ban something if it can't be an attack vector for the network, therefore banning Ordinals the way they work, so they switch to being stored at the UTXO, is an unreasonable statement to make.

for example, say you changed bitcoin transaction format so that there had to be an extra second signature on top of the first signature. the second signature would be from a node that validated the first signature. the node that did the validation would get a small reward if the transaction they signed and validated made it into a block.

if a node didn't want to participate in the signing process they could just broadcast it out to other nodes and let them sign it. so it could be like an opt-in system for nodes who are looking to pick up a small amount of spare cash.
My friend, you really don't find anything flawed with this?  Undecided

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May 18, 2024, 09:55:59 AM
 #522

well yeah obviously, there's got to be some limits but no one is doing larger than M=N=15 most likely and i doubt people even do anything that big. But there might be 5 of 7 but i think bitcoin stamps only does 2 of 3.
Define "bitcoin stamps". It is completely valid to spend from a 15-of-15 multi-sig.

I think he's talking about SRC-20. Check this technical documentation, https://github.com/stampchain-io/stamps_sdk/blob/main/docs/src20specs.md.

so there's not going to be any justification for saying that 2 of 3 multisig transactions even the ones from bitcoin stamps are not welcome on the bitcoin network. 
I still don't understand the point you're making. There is no justification to ban something if it can't be an attack vector for the network, therefore banning Ordinals the way they work, so they switch to being stored at the UTXO, is an unreasonable statement to make.

If Ordinals is banned, those people would use Rune first rather than resorting to UTXO/fake address.

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May 20, 2024, 02:00:18 AM
 #523


I still don't understand the point you're making. There is no justification to ban something if it can't be an attack vector for the network, therefore banning Ordinals the way they work, so they switch to being stored at the UTXO, is an unreasonable statement to make.

i just don't buy your argument that if ordinals were "banned", that would force people to use bitcoin stamps (or something like it) which stores things in the utxo set. that's just a big assumption. i think what you would find is most people would not do it. but those that did should be welcomed with open arms.

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/OP_CHECKMULTISIG

and it should be none of our business, what they are using that op code for.


Quote from: LoyceV
This makes no sense. Every node has to validate every transaction. If a node earns money from signing, miners will sign everything by themselves and take the money.

it was just an idea. that's all.   Embarrassed
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May 20, 2024, 11:34:20 AM
 #524

Everyone is still debating whether it should or shouldn't be "banned"? It's too late in my opinion.

Personally, and as everyone has already noticed from my posting history about Ordinals, BRC-20, and Runes, I am agnostic about them and/or what's being built with them. But for those Bitcoiners who continue talking about it because they hate it, I believe they should study the Streisand Effect. Those people actually did all the "marketing" that Ordinals needed to bootstrap the project. If they ignored it, then everyone would have ignored it/it wouldn't have a lot of attention.

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May 20, 2024, 02:38:44 PM
 #525

i just don't buy your argument that if ordinals were "banned", that would force people to use bitcoin stamps (or something like it) which stores things in the utxo set
I was careful with my wording. I said incentivize, not force. Besides, are you banning something with the mindset that its supporters won't attempt to bypass your measures? What would be your excuse if they move to UTXO set? "Yo, we banned that tapscript type to stop Ordinals, but it didn't work out, our bad".

and it should be none of our business, what they are using that op code for.
If the manner in which they use that OP code is none of our business, then the manner in which they've designed to store trash in the chain is neither our business.

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Today at 12:25:21 AM
Last edit: Today at 12:47:13 AM by larry_vw_1955
 #526


I was careful with my wording. I said incentivize, not force.
but clearly you believe that banning ordinals would result in a mad rush on using something like bitcoin stamps that's very clear from how you've been talking here.  Shocked

Quote
Besides, are you banning something with the mindset that its supporters won't attempt to bypass your measures? What would be your excuse if they move to UTXO set? "Yo, we banned that tapscript type to stop Ordinals, but it didn't work out, our bad".
as long as they are not allowed to store data without limit and hog up the entire block AND get a 75% discount on the size of their data, they can do whatever they want to. but incentivizing people to store large amounts of data that way is just not ideal.


Quote
If the manner in which they use that OP code is none of our business, then the manner in which they've designed to store trash in the chain is neither our business.

OP_CHECKMULTISIG was explicitly designed to allow people to do multisig transactions. where is the opcode and bip for ordinals? that's right. there is none. big difference.

clearly the developers were asleep at the wheel and didn't realize that someone would be able to hog up all the space in an entire block using a single transaction. they just didn't realize that could happen. now they don't know what to do so they're not doing anything. but bitcoin is a mess because of it, kind of. and no one wants to admit anything.


Personally, and as everyone has already noticed from my posting history about Ordinals, BRC-20, and Runes, I am agnostic about them and/or what's being built with them.
you do realize that these people storing data using ordinals are getting a 75% discount on their fees. i disagree with that. if they were paying the full fee that might be different. but even then, obviously it is nice if you limit how much data can be stored per transaction. there's a precedent for doing that you know...
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Today at 02:05:12 AM
Merited by LoyceV (4), ABCbits (1)
 #527

But for those Bitcoiners who continue talking about it because they hate it, I believe they should study the Streisand Effect. Those people actually did all the "marketing" that Ordinals needed to bootstrap the project. If they ignored it, then everyone would have ignored it/it wouldn't have a lot of attention.
The scam market where these junks are being pumped and dumped and the people's greed thinking they can make a lot of money buying garbage advertised it not what people say about it on the internet. In fact I can bet that majority of those newbies who have been buying these don't even read what we're saying about them. Wink

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Today at 05:41:41 AM
 #528

The scam market where these junks are being pumped and dumped and the people's greed thinking they can make a lot of money buying garbage advertised it not what people say about it on the internet. In fact I can bet that majority of those newbies who have been buying these don't even read what we're saying about them. Wink
As Warren Buffet said: "Don't invest in something you don't understand". That doesn't really work for the FOMO-people.

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Today at 06:31:56 AM
 #529

but clearly you believe that banning ordinals would result in a mad rush on using something like bitcoin stamps that's very clear from how you've been talking here.
Yes, I do, and I'm honestly curious why you don't think that either. There are people out there willing to trade $2M for a satoshi, and you think it's difficult for them to slightly change their protocol?

as long as they are not allowed to store data without limit and hog up the entire block AND get a 75% discount on the size of their data, they can do whatever they want to.
Nice of you who's being permissive.  Roll Eyes

OP_CHECKMULTISIG was explicitly designed to allow people to do multisig transactions. where is the opcode and bip for ordinals? that's right. there is none. big difference.
Bitcoin was explicitly designed for peer-to-peer transactions. Where is the BIP that proposes using centralized exchanges and forfeiting custody when using bitcoin? Oh, right. People have the freedom to choose how to use it.

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Today at 07:58:27 AM
 #530

Yes, I do, and I'm honestly curious why you don't think that either. There are people out there willing to trade $2M for a satoshi, and you think it's difficult for them to slightly change their protocol?
take a look: https://stampchain.io

it looks like we have about half a million bitcoin stamps so far. have they impacted the bitcoin network at all? is anyone complaining about them?

people that use the blockchain properly are always welcome to do so. and their transactions will not be pruned out of peoples' nodes like a piece of garbage needing to be discarded into the nearest trash can. you really do get what you pay for.  Cool

pay a little extra and do it the right way. of course, that's easier said than done for the cheapos. who are worried about how much it is going to cost...

oh thats right, that's why they use segwit so they can store a large amount of data for less. as though that makes any sense that people would want them doing that. just saying.
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Today at 08:13:06 AM
 #531

take a look: ~
No I won't. I'm not going to encourage that shit.

Quote
it looks like we have about half a million bitcoin stamps so far. have they impacted the bitcoin network at all? is anyone complaining about them?
I don't care what they call it, all I see is on-chain spam.

Quote
pay a little extra and do it the right way. of course, that's easier said than done for the cheapos. who are worried about how much it is going to cost...
Tell me: how many on-chain Bitcoin transactions have you made this year?

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Today at 10:27:03 AM
 #532

Everyone is still debating whether it should or shouldn't be "banned"? It's too late in my opinion.

Personally, and as everyone has already noticed from my posting history about Ordinals, BRC-20, and Runes, I am agnostic about them and/or what's being built with them. But for those Bitcoiners who continue talking about it because they hate it, I believe they should study the Streisand Effect. Those people actually did all the "marketing" that Ordinals needed to bootstrap the project. If they ignored it, then everyone would have ignored it/it wouldn't have a lot of attention.
It's not really debatable. If we read the Bitcoin whitepaper and respect it, then we can say that Bitcoin purely p2p version of electronic cash that allows us to send money from one party to another. Ordinals simply is the opposite of Bitcoin. Ordinals simply are data attached to an individual satoshi, this is clearly not an electronic version of cash and this is clearly not used for p2p money transfer. So, fundamentally and from every aspect, ordinals ruin the functionality of Bitcoin as an electronic version of cash and as a p2p payment method.

As Warren Buffet said: "Don't invest in something you don't understand". That doesn't really work for the FOMO-people.
That's debatable but for the majority of people, it's a good advice.

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Today at 03:16:51 PM
 #533



Personally, and as everyone has already noticed from my posting history about Ordinals, BRC-20, and Runes, I am agnostic about them and/or what's being built with them.

you do realize that these people storing data using ordinals are getting a 75% discount on their fees. i disagree with that. if they were paying the full fee that might be different. but even then, obviously it is nice if you limit how much data can be stored per transaction. there's a precedent for doing that you know...


But you do realize that technically, no matter how stupid or "wrong" you may think they are, those users both pay for the transaction fees and they don't break the consensus rules. It's your right to have an opinion/disagreement, as it is their right to have their opinion/disagreement. BUT my point was if everyone simply ignored what they were doing, then there wouldn't be a Streisand Effect that gave them the free marketing that they needed to help bootstrap their "projects".

I believe like Bitcoin itself, Casey Rodarmor opened a Pandora's Box, never to be closed. Shitcoinery in Bitcoin might be here to stay.

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