Trezor standard v hidden wallet?

[Sumarokov]

Hello. I understand the reasoning why having a hidden wallet is good on a Trezor device.

I have made the password quite challenging, but at the same time it is possible to commit it to memory.

Can you tell me, if I lose or forget my password, how would I retrieve my coins?

Because as I understand, I have one seedphrase for the two wallets (hidden, standard).

Would I need to enter the seedphrase in another device (eg. Electrum) to get my coins back? And would they all appear "together"?

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[OmegaStarScream]

There's no way to access your hidden wallet without the passphrase. The whole purpose of "hidden wallets" is that if your seed gets compromised, no one will be able to access your funds. See this:

[Sumarokov]

"There's no way to access your hidden wallet without the passphrase."

I understand that. But I am asking slightly from a different angle. I am checking about ME if I lose the passphrase.

I cannot access the hidden wallet.... but is there still a way to access the coins, if I have the seed, but not the passphrase?

[Yamane_Keto]

Would I need to enter the seedphrase in another device (eg. Electrum) to get my coins back? And would they all appear "together"?

think of it as  "Your_Recovery_Seed_Words + new word (Passphrase) = new seed" Thus, it is as if you got a new seed with 13/25 words, and whenever you change the new word, a new wallet will be generated with new addresses, and so on.

Theoretically, your wallet seed "12/24 words" is enough to generate a wallet, and you can leave a small amount in it ( i.e. $10,) to inspire hackers that total money you have is $10.
each additional word gives you a new wallet with a new master private key (new wallet start with old seed + new word.) which can contain your balance. here hacker need your wallet seed and that word.

I cannot access the hidden wallet.... but is there still a way to access the coins, if I have the seed, but not the passphrase?

Passphrases are not stored anywhere, you need to remember it. read next reply
If you have correct seed and don't remember Passphrases, you need to brute force it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brute-force_attack

[o_e_l_e_o]

I cannot access the hidden wallet.... but is there still a way to access the coins, if I have the seed, but not the passphrase?

No. You require both the seed phrase and the passphrase to access the hidden wallet and the coins inside. If you lose the passphrase, then you cannot access the coins in the hidden wallet, even if you still have the seed phrase.

Passphrases are not stored anywhere, you need to remember it.

Bad idea. You should back it up on paper, separately to your seed phrase.

[m2017]

Hello. I understand the reasoning why having a hidden wallet is good on a Trezor device.

I have made the password quite challenging, but at the same time it is possible to commit it to memory.

Can you tell me, if I lose or forget my password, how would I retrieve my coins?

Because as I understand, I have one seedphrase for the two wallets (hidden, standard).

Would I need to enter the seedphrase in another device (eg. Electrum) to get my coins back? And would they all appear "together"?

it is logical to assume that why the passphrase would be needed if without it it was possible to get access to a hidden wallet. Including other applications.

Thanks for the replies on this thread. It was also useful for me to know for sure about such nuances.

During this process, I had some questions. Here's what it says on the trezor's website:

"Using passphrase in other apps

By using the same combination of recovery seed and passphrase, the same wallet with identical addresses is derived - no matter which application is used:"

There is also this video, which describes an example of restoring a wallet in trezor and metamask. Ok, thanks to this video, I made sure that in metamask you can restore access to a hidden wallet using the passphrase.

Now the questions:

1- Metamask supports coins of a certain standard (erc-20). If a user has coins of other standards in a hidden wallet (for example, bitcoin), then he will not be able to access this. How to be in this situation?

2- In what other applications can restore a hidden wallet? Is this possible in electrum? I already know about trezor and metamask (information from the official site). If trezor suite stops functioning (don't even ask for what reason).

[o_e_l_e_o]

1- Metamask supports coins of a certain standard (erc-20). If a user has coins of other standards in a hidden wallet (for example, bitcoin), then he will not be able to access this. How to be in this situation?

I have no idea about Metamask specifically as I have never used it, but each hidden wallet can store any number of different coins. You just need a compatible wallet in order to access each one.

2- In what other applications can restore a hidden wallet? Is this possible in electrum? I already know about trezor and metamask (information from the official site). If trezor suite stops functioning (don't even ask for what reason).

Yes, Electrum supports passphrases. Most good wallets do. You will never run in to a problem of not having software which can recover hidden wallets.

I would also just add that Trezor now support government surveillance and control, and so is a very poor choice of hardware wallet.

[dkbit98]

I have made the password quite challenging, but at the same time it is possible to commit it to memory.

Password is not the same thing as Passphrase.
You can have multiple passphrases and they are all acting as salt to your seed words and creating separate accounts.
Hiding this account is possible with settings option in Trezor Suite app, but if you forget passprhase you will lose your coins even if you have seed phrase words.

Because as I understand, I have one seedphrase for the two wallets (hidden, standard).

Seedphrase is one, ontop of that you can create multiple accounts with different passphrases.

I cannot access the hidden wallet.... but is there still a way to access the coins, if I have the seed, but not the passphrase?

No, unless you used some stupid easy passphrase like 1234, QWER, etc and someone cracks it.

[m2017]

1- Metamask supports coins of a certain standard (erc-20). If a user has coins of other standards in a hidden wallet (for example, bitcoin), then he will not be able to access this. How to be in this situation?

I have no idea about Metamask specifically as I have never used it, but each hidden wallet can store any number of different coins. You just need a compatible wallet in order to access each one.

In my post, there is a link to a video about this from trezor. I guess it says metamask supports hidden wallets, so it does. Regardless of the lack of ideas and experience of use.

2- In what other applications can restore a hidden wallet? Is this possible in electrum? I already know about trezor and metamask (information from the official site). If trezor suite stops functioning (don't even ask for what reason).

Yes, Electrum supports passphrases. Most good wallets do. You will never run in to a problem of not having software which can recover hidden wallets.

I would also just add that Trezor now support government surveillance and control, and so is a very poor choice of hardware wallet.

What kind of wallets do you include in most good wallets?

Surely there won't be a problem? Devices from trezor support coins of various formats, which require completely different applications to store. My question was that by sending a coin to a hidden wallet (during long-term storage), will it not turn out that access to these coins will be lost? Due to the fact that trezor suit ceased to exist, and other applications that allow you to restore access to the wallet simply didn't exist in nature (that is, there were such wallets, but initially didn't support hidden wallets).

What government surveillance and control are you talking about? If now trezor hardware wallet is considered a very bad choice, then it’s not even clear which wallet is considered a good one.

Actually, this is not surprising. Governments could not ignore the major HW device manufacturers. Now they will take on less fish?

[o_e_l_e_o]

What kind of wallets do you include in most good wallets?

Reputable open source wallets, such as Electrum, Sparrow, or Samourai.

My question was that by sending a coin to a hidden wallet (during long-term storage), will it not turn out that access to these coins will be lost? Due to the fact that trezor suit ceased to exist, and other applications that allow you to restore access to the wallet simply didn't exist in nature (that is, there were such wallets, but initially didn't support hidden wallets).

I would suggest that if a coin doesn't even have its own standalone wallet, it's probably either completely useless or an outright scam and should be avoided altogether. Worst case scenario you can use Ian Coleman's site on an airgapped computer to enter your seed phrase, passphrase, choose the correct coin and correct derivation path and extract the necessary private key for your shitcoins.

What government surveillance and control are you talking about? If now trezor hardware wallet is considered a very bad choice, then it’s not even clear which wallet is considered a good one.

They have partnered with Wasabi, who pay the blockchain analysis company Coinfirm to surveil their users. Trezor have not been a great choice since their unfixable seed extraction vulnerability was discovered, but given that they are now pro-surveillance and pro-censorship I don't think anyone should ever buy a Trezor device again.

The best hardware wallet on the market right now in my opinion is a Passport.

[apogio]

Passphrases are not stored anywhere, you need to remember it.

I totally disagree... Just store it in a different location. Don't ever trust your memory. Friendly advice 

[Mate2237]

What government surveillance and control are you talking about? If now trezor hardware wallet is considered a very bad choice, then it’s not even clear which wallet is considered a good one.

They have partnered with Wasabi, who pay the blockchain analysis company Coinfirm to surveil their users. Trezor have not been a great choice since their unfixable seed extraction vulnerability was discovered, but given that they are now pro-surveillance and pro-censorship I don't think anyone should ever buy a Trezor device again.

The best hardware wallet on the market right now in my opinion is a Passport.

Well I have not used any of the above mentioned wallets except Electrum, Trust Wallet and and Binance exchange platform wallet. Someone made a recommendation of Trezor hardware wallet  but from what I am seeing here, I don't think it is recommendable to use it again.

m2017 don't take one particular object as the best because production of things are differ. So if you didn't take Trezor as one the best, there are others that can still take that position. Though knowing the secret of all those devices is the best. It is today that I am hearing the name passport as wallet again. That is why forum is a good place to learn.

[m2017]

What kind of wallets do you include in most good wallets?

Reputable open source wallets, such as Electrum, Sparrow, or Samourai.

I meant hardware wallets. The listed wallets are well known to almost everyone and this is the majority of bitcoin users know.

My question was that by sending a coin to a hidden wallet (during long-term storage), will it not turn out that access to these coins will be lost? Due to the fact that trezor suit ceased to exist, and other applications that allow you to restore access to the wallet simply didn't exist in nature (that is, there were such wallets, but initially didn't support hidden wallets).

I would suggest that if a coin doesn't even have its own standalone wallet, it's probably either completely useless or an outright scam and should be avoided altogether. Worst case scenario you can use Ian Coleman's site on an airgapped computer to enter your seed phrase, passphrase, choose the correct coin and correct derivation path and extract the necessary private key for your shitcoins.

This is not about own standalone wallet, but about own standalone wallet, which allows to enter the passphrase in order to access a hidden wallet. Well, probably not all wallets support the phrase input function and hidden wallets, right?

Wow, for the hint with Ian Coleman's's site, but your answer would be more complete if you provided link to this site. I understand that all the necessary instructions are available on this website?

What government surveillance and control are you talking about? If now trezor hardware wallet is considered a very bad choice, then it’s not even clear which wallet is considered a good one.

They have partnered with Wasabi, who pay the blockchain analysis company Coinfirm to surveil their users. Trezor have not been a great choice since their unfixable seed extraction vulnerability was discovered, but given that they are now pro-surveillance and pro-censorship I don't think anyone should ever buy a Trezor device again.

The best hardware wallet on the market right now in my opinion is a Passport.

If use a bundle of electrum + trezor? Then after all, in theory, the user can avoid surveillance, right? That is, the problem lies in trezor proprietary trezor suit application, as I understand it. Backdoors were not found in the software or hardware of trezor, allowing the manufacturer to track the actions of their customers, as I recall.

The vulnerability you are talking about will probably be fixed. It is in the manufacturer's interest to do so. At least all vulnerabilities have been fixed up to now.

As for the passport, I can say that now. After all, they, too, can at any time change their policy of behavior and enter into some kind of partnership, like a trezor.

[o_e_l_e_o]

I meant hardware wallets. The listed wallets are well known to almost everyone and this is the majority of bitcoin users know.

Then as I said above - Passport.

If use a bundle of electrum + trezor? Then after all, in theory, the user can avoid surveillance, right?

This is correct, although you are still vulnerable to the seed extraction attack, so you must use a long and complex passphrase with all Trezor devices.

The vulnerability you are talking about will probably be fixed. It is in the manufacturer's interest to do so. At least all vulnerabilities have been fixed up to now.

It can't be fixed. It is intrinsic to the hardware. All Trezor devices are permanently vulnerable. https://blog.ledger.com/Unfixable-Key-Extraction-Attack-on-Trezor/

As for the passport, I can say that now. After all, they, too, can at any time change their policy of behavior and enter into some kind of partnership, like a trezor.

They could, as could literally anyone at any time. But if you follow some of their staff on Twitter, they are very much pro-privacy and opposed to the surveillance and censorship that Trezor now support. For example:

https://nitter.it/sethforprivacy/status/1653072714800807937
https://nitter.it/zachherbert/status/1650299865056829445

[Pmalek]

I have made the password quite challenging, but at the same time it is possible to commit it to memory.
Can you tell me, if I lose or forget my password, how would I retrieve my coins?

That depends on what you consider challenging. A simple passphrase could be bruteforced in seconds or minutes. A complex one would perhaps require millions of years. It's easier to say never in that case.

Because as I understand, I have one seedphrase for the two wallets (hidden, standard).
Would I need to enter the seedphrase in another device (eg. Electrum) to get my coins back? And would they all appear "together"?

If you have 0.1 BTC in your standard wallet and 5 BTC in your hidden wallet, here is how it would work. If you enter your seed in Electrum and choose BIP39 and the correct derivation path in the options, you would recover that 0.1 BTC. To gain access to the 5 BTC, you'll need the correct passphrase on top of that. So those are two different wallets. And the passphrase has to be exactly the same because there is no such thing as a wrong one in the protocol's eyes. 'Sumarokov' will recover one account, 'sumarokov' a completely different one. The recovery of your coins depends on you entering the identical passphrase. Even empty spaces count as valid characters.

Wow, for the hint with Ian Coleman's's site, but your answer would be more complete if you provided link to this site. I understand that all the necessary instructions are available on this website?

This is the site > https://iancoleman.io/bip39/.
You should download the latest version from GitHub if you are planning to use it. You can read a bit more here >https://github.com/iancoleman/bip39.

[Yamane_Keto]

Passphrases are not stored anywhere, you need to remember it. read next reply

Thanks for correcting me, I edit it.

This is not about own standalone wallet, but about own standalone wallet, which allows to enter the passphrase in order to access a hidden wallet. Well, probably not all wallets support the phrase input function and hidden wallets, right?

Hidden wallet is just a marketing term as I would call it a word extension, seed extension, 13th word, 25th word or whatever it is it is not related to hardware wallets or Trezor but rather an additional protection option against physical attacks.

In the sense that the seeds are safe against brute force attacks, but if you are afraid that these seeds will fall into the wrong hands or want additional security, you can try this feature, which is a restrict access defined by BIP-39 standard with wallet seed itself.

You need to set it up during wallet configuration, so any wallet that supports this feature will give you access to your Trezor hidden wallet.
https://iancoleman.io/bip39/ can help you to access your private key/MPK from that seed+passphrase and import it to any wallet (not recommend)

[witcher_sense]

Would I need to enter the seedphrase in another device (eg. Electrum) to get my coins back? And would they all appear "together"?

The software you are importing your seed phrase doesn't know if an additional passphrase exists (calling it a password is incorrect at best because the implementation is completely different, but unlike other cases, in this case, the implementation does matter since it helps you understand better how to not fuck up your setup), so if it is not engineered following best practices, it may even not offer you an option to specify it (a passphrase) when accessing a wallet. Think of a wallet created out of a combination of seed phrase and passphrase as something different from one derived from a seed phrase only: it will generate a piece of information completely unrelated to a single seed wallet so that all addresses, keys, and results of derivation path equations will be impossible to reconstruct without knowing initial passphrase. The reason this wallet is called "hidden" is likely due to the fact that it leaves no traces inside the wallet itself: inserted passphrase is not remembered or hashed, it creates temporary wallets that matter for a single session, and any passphrase is considered a "right" one regardless of whether it contains funded addresses or not.