Ledger Recovery - Send your (encrypted) recovery phrase to 3rd parties entities

[HeRetiK]

I am not afraid of Ledger stealing the keys.

Stealing will land them in prison, so that's not my biggest worry. But leaking the keys is a real risk.

It will only land them in prison if it can be traced back to them. Otherwise it's indiscernible whether the keys leaked or an inside job happened.

But yes, andy.arden is right that in the big picture government control is probably the largest risk.

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[Eternad]

Technical question about this update since I just receive this notification about firmware update for ledger recovery. Will my ledger will be safe if I don't update my firmware to current latest version? I’m thinking that my ledger will stay as is which ledger doesn't have the ability to recover my seed phrase if I didn't install the latest firmware which they implements this recovery feature.

Their recovery feature sucks because they charge fee for an extra centralized service which defeat the purpose of hardware wallet.

[m2017]

What I say is simple: do not have Ledger Wallet installed on your PC; use Electrum or another wallet to access Ledger; and never do this type of configuration.
This is clear for anyone who wants to continue using their HW Ledger.

How safe is that against a thief who steals your Ledger and uses "Recover" to extract your seed phrase from the "secure" element?

In this case, owning a Ledger loses any meaning. This is precisely the trick with hardware wallets, that no one except you (even physically) can access the contents of the wallet.

What I say is simple: do not have Ledger Wallet installed on your PC; use Electrum or another wallet to access Ledger; and never do this type of configuration.
This is clear for anyone who wants to continue using their HW Ledger.

How safe is that against a thief who steals your Ledger and uses "Recover" to extract your seed phrase from the "secure" element?

My ledger is from before this firmware update. Furthermore, the service was never active. Now, the observation is valid, and therefore requires the person to be very attentive to how they use things - like not walking around with the Ledger in their pocket.

If you have not updated firmware, this doesn't mean you are “immune” to ledger Recover. They can force you to update, for example, by limiting the functionality of older firmware versions or making them inoperable. Not necessarily directly, but for example, with the help of Ledger Live, which will stop “seeing” devices with old firmware or something like that. I’m sure Ledger will be able to figure out how to force an update.

What I say is simple: do not have Ledger Wallet installed on your PC; use Electrum or another wallet to access Ledger; and never do this type of configuration.
This is clear for anyone who wants to continue using their HW Ledger.

It's impossible to use ledger wallet without ever using ledger crap app.
First you need this crap app to install and update device firmware, so you need to install and use it minimum one time or more.
There is no way around to generate new ledger account with electrum or any other third party wallet if you have new ledger device.

Already at this stage a devilish cunning was laid down, which for some reason was not noticed for a long time.

Such dependence of ledger on ledger live completely deprives the device of autonomy and independence. This is already a serious reason to doubt.

I am not afraid of Ledger stealing the keys.

Stealing will land them in prison, so that's not my biggest worry. But leaking the keys is a real risk.

Not every thief attacker goes to prison.

Ledger becomes vulnerable to both online and offline attacks. Why is this device needed at all if it doesn't do its job?

[joker_josue]

What I say is simple: do not have Ledger Wallet installed on your PC; use Electrum or another wallet to access Ledger; and never do this type of configuration.
This is clear for anyone who wants to continue using their HW Ledger.

It's impossible to use ledger wallet without ever using ledger crap app.
First you need this crap app to install and update device firmware, so you need to install and use it minimum one time or more.
There is no way around to generate new ledger account with electrum or any other third party wallet if you have new ledger device.

Clear! What I said is for those who have an old Ledger and who are not going to do a reset now. This is no longer recommended.

How safe is that against a thief who steals your Ledger and uses "Recover" to extract your seed phrase from the "secure" element?

They need to have physical access your device first, than anything is possible.
If they can't extract it, maybe they can sign up for Recover instead of owner   

You had to have some access data, such as a PIN, to validate enrollment in this recovery program. And if you have the PIN, it doesn't make sense for the thief to sign up for this program.

Well, at least that's what they say. 



We all have to go back to the famous paper or metal sheet, so we don't have these types of worries. 

[Pmalek]

It's impossible to use ledger wallet without ever using ledger crap app.
First you need this crap app to install and update device firmware

Ledger sends their hardware wallets with already installed firmware, and very often it's the latest version. So, you don't need the app to install the firmware.

There is no way around to generate new ledger account with electrum or any other third party wallet if you have new ledger device.

That's true. You have to install the Ledger crypto apps before you can use any software wallet, be it Electrum, Ledger Live, or something else.

Technical question about this update since I just receive this notification about firmware update for ledger recovery. Will my ledger will be safe if I don't update my firmware to current latest version?

Do not update the firmware if you intend to keep using your Ledger HW. The update doesn't fix any vulnerabilities, but adds the Ledger Recover vulnerability which you shouldn't have. 

Ledger is now advertising their pathetic Ledger Recover feature with a discount. Instead of $120/year, it's possible to get it for $99.99 if the subscription is purchased together with the Nano X hardware wallet, the only HW that currently has the code and supports this vulnerability.

[LoyceV]

Ledger is now advertising their pathetic Ledger Recover feature with a discount. Instead of $120/year, it's possible to get it for $99.99

I'll lower my offer too:

Hey, I can compete with this! For only $8.99 $6.99 per month I'll keep a backup of all your seed phrases, and I guarantee you that if your funds ever gets lost, I'll blame you and you won't get €50,000 from me! Still not convinced? Unlike Ledger, I've never leaked full address data of millions of my customers. How's that?

Are we allowed to call people who fall for this idiots?

[Pmalek]

Are we allowed to call people who fall for this idiots?

If they fully understand what they are getting themselves into and still do it, yes. If they have been in custody of their own private keys and seeds this whole time, and now with the introduction of Ledger Recover, they decide to use that because holding your own keys is difficult and dangerous, then they are even bigger idiots. On the other hand, if they fail to understand the whole concept of crypto, they should first be pointed towards a better path. If they still go through the dark forest, don't come back crying if you get attacked (if you come back at all).

[m2017]

Ledger sends their hardware wallets with already installed firmware, and very often it's the latest version. So, you don't need the app to install the firmware.

This doesn't apply to older devices that have been discontinued, but which can still be found on sale or have users. For example, Nano S. In their case, a firmware update may be mandatory.

That's true. You have to install the Ledger crypto apps before you can use any software wallet, be it Electrum, Ledger Live, or something else.

Why wouldn't they make a backdoor in this point? Users will still be forced to pre-install crypto apps.

Are we allowed to call people who fall for this idiots?

I would prefer to be more lenient with them. These are simply those users who don't understand anything about this, don't try to find out, but continue to blindly believe in cheap marketing ploys.

Enemies of ming.

If they fully understand what they are getting themselves into and still do it, yes.

Most likely, they simply don’t understand anything.

On the other hand, if they fail to understand the whole concept of crypto, they should first be pointed towards a better path.

I believe this is exactly the case. Because they don't understand this, they create trouble for themselves. In fact, they need help and to be shown the right path. But to do this, they must ask these questions first.

[FatFork]

If they fully understand what they are getting themselves into and still do it, yes.

Most likely, they simply don’t understand anything.

Just the kind of user Ledger have been searching for all along! The only problem is, there seems to be an abundance of such users!

Let's face it, if someone were to offer a service like this for free, everyone would be screaming "SCAM!" But because Ledger slapped a subscription fee, it suddenly became a legit service for the ignoramus ignorami.

[Pmalek]

This doesn't apply to older devices that have been discontinued, but which can still be found on sale or have users. For example, Nano S. In their case, a firmware update may be mandatory.

Since they have been discontinued, you can no longer buy them on the official shop. Perhaps they are still available with resellers. In that case, I wouldn't expect the resellers to keep them updated with the latest firmware, and that's true for all models, not just the Nano S.

Why wouldn't they make a backdoor in this point? Users will still be forced to pre-install crypto apps.

The crypto apps and Ledger Live are open-source. The minority that can read code can verify what the apps do. The dangers and uncertainties are in the closed-source firmware.

[examplens]

i also read about the 'recover start' yesterday. what i find even more outrageous is that Ledger charges the user €10 for this service (after the first month is free) from the second month on.
will advise everyone in my circle of acquaintances and also here in the form against this service!

I assume that because of the company's image, they didn't want to give up the "recover" implementation ignoring all negative public reactions.

I'll lower my offer too:

Hey, I can compete with this! For only $8.99 $6.99 per month I'll keep a backup of all your seed phrases, and I guarantee you that if your funds ever gets lost, I'll blame you and you won't get €50,000 from me! Still not convinced? Unlike Ledger, I've never leaked full address data of millions of my customers. How's that?

I sent you my seedphrases in DM, can you reply with the deposit address to pay for the first month?
Also, I am interested in the case that if I skip one month with the payment, will I lose my coins?

[Meuserna]

Ledger sends their hardware wallets with already installed firmware, and very often it's the latest version. So, you don't need the app to install the firmware.

This doesn't apply to older devices that have been discontinued, but which can still be found on sale or have users. For example, Nano S. In their case, a firmware update may be mandatory.

Keep in mind, those older devices use closed source firmware too, so you have no way of knowing if your device has a backdoor giving Ledger - or whoever - access to your seed:

"There's no backdoor and I obviously can't prove it"
btchip, Ledger owner & co-founder

[LoyceV]

I sent you my seedphrases in DM, can you reply with the deposit address to pay for the first month?

Don't worry, I'll take my payment myself

Also, I am interested in the case that if I skip one month with the payment, will I lose my coins?

On a serious note, this does bring up an interesting question. What happens if someone cancels their automated payment for Ledger Recover? Will they destroy the seed phrase from their storage and all their backups? I find that hard to believe, and you can't know for sure. Or will they just keep your seed phrase, but deny you acces if you ask for it? Or will they just charge you a much higher "manual recovery fee" when you need it? Either way, I'm not going to find out

[examplens]

On a serious note, this does bring up an interesting question. What happens if someone cancels their automated payment for Ledger Recover? Will they destroy the seed phrase from their storage and all their backups? I find that hard to believe, and you can't know for sure. Or will they just keep your seed phrase, but deny you acces if you ask for it? Or will they just charge you a much higher "manual recovery fee" when you need it? Either way, I'm not going to find out

That occurred to me as well. What if someone is really late with a payment and has not cancelled the service, will Ledger itself be charged from the funds in the wallet?
It's a pity that we will never have reliable information on how many users have really decided to pay for this service, but I think it will be a complete fiasco.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

I am not afraid of Ledger stealing the keys.

Stealing will land them in prison, so that's not my biggest worry. But leaking the keys is a real risk.

It will only land them in prison if it can be traced back to them. Otherwise it's indiscernible whether the keys leaked or an inside job happened.
But yes, andy.arden is right that in the big picture government control is probably the largest risk.

Definitely the largest risk.

As far as anyone landing in prison, I have a feeling that in the case of Ledger specifically, internal theft would probably be easily distinguishable from some random hack--for one thing, crypto is under far more scrutiny than it was back when some of the bigger exchanges got hacked and (as far as I know) nobody suffered any consequences aside from Mark Karpeles.  And the other thing that comes to mind is that if Ledger's got everyone's keys and has some kind of bookkeeping going on internally, if law enforcement or investigators for plaintiffs in a lawsuit start nosing around they'll probably be able to tell what's what.  This isn't 2011 we're living in.

But oh how I do wish Ledger would go down in flames.  I just hope it doesn't take down a bunch of crypto owners, however trusting they might be with 3rd parties and their private keys.

[1980sFuture]

Just curious, has ledger responded to any questions on the record about anything to do with how and where the encryption keys for these shards reside? Have they given any technical details in any literature interviews etc beyond just the "shards are encrypted" redundancy?

[Pmalek]

Keep in mind, those older devices use closed source firmware too, so you have no way of knowing if your device has a backdoor giving Ledger - or whoever - access to your seed

Yes, I know that. It's always been like that and nothing has changed nor is it likely to change unless Ledger, by some miracle, decides to open-source everything. But like you said, it will only work for the current and future software upgrades. Open-sourcing something from 1, 2, or 5 years ago won't help much if users moved away from those old firmware versions.

Personally, I think that if Ledger Recover was a thing in the past in any form, they would keep quiet about it and never announce it like they did, facing all the backlash. But we will never know.

Just curious, has ledger responded to any questions on the record about anything to do with how and where the encryption keys for these shards reside? Have they given any technical details in any literature interviews etc beyond just the "shards are encrypted" redundancy?

That's probably something you have to ask them in writing and hope that support knows how to handle your inquiry.

[1980sFuture]

hope that support knows how to handle your inquiry.

Ah so don't expect any sort of useful answer. Gotcha.

[Pmalek]

Ah so don't expect any sort of useful answer.

Unless they have received new and updated instructions about what to say regarding technical questions about their Ledger Recover service. Ledger is sending vibes as if their internal departments are completely out-of-sync and not working together properly. A normal company would first train and instruct its support about what they need to do. There would also be coordination between marketing and development. Here, it's like everyone is doing their thing with no common goal. When all this nonsense started, Ledger support was basically, we have no idea what is going on, let's just wait for the marketing or development teams to tell us how to proceed.     

[m2017]

Ah so don't expect any sort of useful answer.

Unless they have received new and updated instructions about what to say regarding technical questions about their Ledger Recover service. Ledger is sending vibes as if their internal departments are completely out-of-sync and not working together properly. A normal company would first train and instruct its support about what they need to do. There would also be coordination between marketing and development. Here, it's like everyone is doing their thing with no common goal. When all this nonsense started, Ledger support was basically, we have no idea what is going on, let's just wait for the marketing or development teams to tell us how to proceed.     

Maybe this is exactly how it all happens, that the company is in internal chaos. We don't know. This is indirectly hinted at by leaks of personal data, which would not have occurred if all internal processes had been properly built and adjusted. This is another reason to doubt whether it is worth using the products of such a company, because your finances are seriously at stake.