After Chipmixer, Is Sinbad.io Next To Be Shutdown?

[JollyGood]

It is inevitable that most if not all mixers will be used for (or will be attempted to be used by criminals for) nefarious purposes but when headlines such as "The world’s most prolific crypto thieves have used Sinbad.io to launder tens of millions" are associated with a brand it means their days are numbered.

I found this article in Wired.com interesting on several levels such as the creator of sinbad.io who wants to be known as Mehdi named the mixer Sinbad after the fictional sailor that travelled far by sea. In the interview Mehdi seemed to comment on almost everything that was being discussed but when asked if Sinbad was a new version of the now defunct Bitcoin mixer Blender, he refused to comment.

"Elliptic" is a crypto tracing company and they have suggested there is irrefutable evidence $22 million moved from Blender to Sinbad in the very early days after Sinbad was created therefore that doubles the reasons why it will probably be the next mixer to be shut down sooner rather than later.

Sinbad.io probably does not have too much time before various law enforcement agencies get together to organise the shutdown of their website and try to arrest the owner/operator on money laundering charges. If criminal activity as taken place on an industrial scale and almost zero protocols were put in place to either reduce, minimise or eliminate the risk of illegal activity by the owner/operator they will end up facing serious criminal charges.

[_act_]

It is inevitable that most if not all mixers will be used for (or will be attempted to be used by criminals for) nefarious purposes

Then why did you join the signature campaign of one of the mixers? No offence, I am just asking because I think you shouldn't join advertising what you think are used by criminals.

"Elliptic" is a crypto tracing company and they have suggested there is irrefutable evidence $22 million moved from Blender to Sinbad in the very early days after Sinbad was created therefore that doubles the reasons why it will probably be the next mixer to be shut down sooner rather than later.

But that does not mean that good people are not using mixers too. Even before bitcoin, there were online criminals.

[bittraffic]

Mehdi is confident of his fate though and most peobably if he even get caught he will also accept whatever sentence given.

He seem to have roam around bitcointalk since he shared the link https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2827109.0 emphasizing several anon services were not seized by governments.

If I were NoKor hacker, I would actually be spreading that $1.7B in different anon services. Sinbad only got $10M, thats too small.

[Fiatless]

It is inevitable that most if not all mixers will be used for (or will be attempted to be used by criminals for) nefarious purposes but when headlines such as "The world’s most prolific crypto thieves have used Sinbad.io to launder tens of millions" are associated with a brand it means their days are numbered.

Pointing at Sinbad.io is also referring to other mixer service providers. The prediction that it will be the next to be shut down by law enforcement agencies is mere speculation, who knows another one might be the next because they offer almost the same service. After all, nobody expected the sudden closure of the almighty Chipmixer because no publication predicted it. We can not doubt that these mixer services are needed to promote privacy and limit centralization. But like other genuine services, criminals will always capitalize on this wonderful service to carry out their evil activities. Relating Sinbad with Blender is mere rumors that have not been proven even the website publication used the word "may", which means that they are not sure that Sinbad is an offshoot of Blender.

[examplens]

It's a little difficult for me to understand the purpose and goal of this kind of thread, especially in the reputation section. We have to play guessing when a service will be shut down. Maybe pool voting should be started, how long will it last?
Why single out only Sinbad, why not include the other mixers as well? Maybe to run some contest or giveaway.
Is Whirlwind.money excluded from this dilemma even though they are engaged in the same type of business, or just because you didn't find a single article about it? Or because you wear their signature.

Given that you wear the Whirlwind money signature, I assume that you are considered part of their team in some way. Isn't it a little inappropriate to negatively spin competitors without a valid reason?

Do you know how long Chipmixer has been in business, and do you believe that it was only used by criminals in the last few months, so that was the reason for the investigation?

[DaveF]

Full disclosure, while posting this I am wearing a sinbad signature.

I think, over time all mixers are going to be shut down by various government entities. Even if they are doing nothing illegitimate, for some reason everybody in law enforcement sees them as illegitimate. I will also say, with more and more exchanges that are not requiring KYC going away I see privacy becoming more and more difficult to obtain.

Continuing with that thought, I have posted many times about various ways to somewhat reliably break proof of ownership of coins. It requires time and effort a decent knowledge of exchanges and (this is important) hunting down exchanges that consider a simple SMS and e-mail address enough KYC for a certain level of withdrawals. Because, if you deposit coins in one exchange using a disposable e-mail and phone number, convert them to another coin, transfer that coin to another exchange that just requires an e-mail address and disposable phone number, and then withdraw from that second exchange after converting to another coin good luck ever being able to prove anything especially if you used XMR or other privacy coins to transfer between exchanges.

Tinfoil hat paranoia, the last mixer that is left standing is run by the NSA....

-Dave

[The Sceptical Chymist]

It is inevitable that most if not all mixers will be used for (or will be attempted to be used by criminals for) nefarious purposes

Then why did you join the signature campaign of one of the mixers? No offence, I am just asking because I think you shouldn't join advertising what you think are used by criminals.

Eh, JollyGood is just asking a general question that's probably on the minds of quite a few members here, and as far as criminals using any mixer service....that's similar to the argument that bitcoin or [name your cryptocurrency] is/has been used for illicit purposes and therefore is bad.  It's a silly argument against crypto, and if it were valid then fiat should be bad as well as all guns, knives, and anything you can think of that's been the tool of criminals.

Who knows what the government is going to go after and with what amount of resources?  It seems as though all things crypto are under the microscope at the moment but that could change.  I do hope there are some powerful bitcoiners with political influence lobbying for us, because the little guys like myself can't really do much of anything to sway those politicians looking to criminalize mixers and whatever else.

[un_rank]

It is inevitable that most if not all mixers will be used for (or will be attempted to be used by criminals for) nefarious purposes

It is inevitable that most if not all banks have been used by criminals for nefarious activities. How many closures have we had as a result of that? Even when banks engage in scams, they just get a slap on the wrist.

Sinbad,io probably does not have too much time before various law enforcement agencies get together to organise the shutdown of their website and try to arrest the owner/operator on money laundering charges. If criminal activity as taken place on an industrial scale and almost zero protocols were put in place to either reduce, minimise or eliminate the risk of illegal activity by the owner/operator they will end up facing serious criminal charges.

This is a grey area as minimizing or eliminating risk by mixers would mean censoring transactions just as centralized exchanges do and would lead to even more centralization of bitcoin channels.
The government can play Russian Roulette with mixers but the end is definitely not to put a stop to illegal activities.

- Jay -

[notblox1]

It's a little difficult for me to understand the purpose and goal of this kind of thread, especially in the reputation section. We have to play guessing when a service will be shut down. Maybe pool voting should be started, how long will it last?

Maybe OP should move this topic in gambling board, this question sounds to me like a guessing game or visiting to some gipsy fortune teller and asking her to tell you future from your hand palm.

Can I ask a counter question, Is Whirlwind.money Next To Be Shutdown?  

[T3PR00T]

It's a little difficult for me to understand the purpose and goal of this kind of thread, especially in the reputation section. We have to play guessing when a service will be shut down. Maybe pool voting should be started, how long will it last?

Maybe OP should move this topic in gambling board, this question sounds to me like a guessing game or visiting to some gipsy fortune teller and asking her to tell you future from your hand palm.

No, it has to be on games and rounds board and need a handsome amount of prize pool from OP's own funding.

There are already two topics about it on service discussion board:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5439754.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5446173.0

Even it was discussed on sinbad.io Ann too: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5416985.0

I trust my reading and I saw another topic about it on another board that makes four places to discuss about it. Having another one about the same topic and in the reputation board is just boring.

I guess Sinbad is paying people secretly to keep them always in the discussions. Whatever they are doing, it seems all are working very well to keep the brand always in everyone's mind.

Can I ask a counter question, Is Whirlwind.money Next To Be Shutdown?  

I think whirlwind still have long road to receive such attention yet. Right now Sinbad seems the most popular mixer around.

[_BlackStar]

Sinbad.io probably does not have too much time before various law enforcement agencies get together to organise the shutdown of their website and try to arrest the owner/operator on money laundering charges. If criminal activity as taken place on an industrial scale and almost zero protocols were put in place to either reduce, minimise or eliminate the risk of illegal activity by the owner/operator they will end up facing serious criminal charges.

This is one of the concerns bitcoiners have had so far - and of course I think it's normal and makes sense.
The government will try to put up more of a fight for any mixer and it's definitely on their watch list. Of course their main reason is to prevent a lot of money laundering cases - but actually they seem to have another mission besides fighting crypto, confiscate bitcoin for example.

The same will probably be attributed to some of the other mixers currently growing and developing, but of course it's a matter of time. Until then, I think the government will shut down any mixer service like they have done other mixers before.

[BitcoinGirl.Club]

Mehdi is confident of his fate though and most peobably if he even get caught he will also accept whatever sentence given.

The name Mehdi does not sound Russain. It's more like a Pakistani name or middle eastern name.

If criminal activity as taken place on an industrial scale and almost zero protocols were put in place to either reduce, minimise or eliminate the risk of illegal activity by the owner/operator they will end up facing serious criminal charges.

If you believe so then I highly recommend you to stop promoting a mixer, even leave the bitcoin forum and live a life where you don't need to touch crypto. You are in Bitcoin and to the law enforcement, Bitcoin is somehow illegal or fair to say they are trying everything to label Bitcoin as illegal asset. Why are you risking your life?

[JollyGood]

Then why did you join the signature campaign of one of the mixers? No offence, I am just asking because I think you shouldn't join advertising what you think are used by criminals.

No offence taken  

Unlike the Blender and Chipmixer websites, Whirlwind has not been seized or forced to shutdown. Also, to my knowledge Whirlwind have not been accused of money laundering by any law enforcement agency nor is their owner/operator the subject of an international arrest warrant. Having said that, criminals will use anything that is available for conducting (or trying to conduct) criminal acts.

As an example, just because banks can be used for money laundering does not mean everybody using their services will launder money and as long as the banks have mechanisms in place to either reduce, minimise or eliminate the risk of illegal activity by the owner/operator they will end up escaping serious criminal charges as they do not want to fall in to illegal activity. If a case was made against a bank they could fight a lawsuit against a governmental agency to show they implemented various rules to prevent criminal activity. I think exchanges do the same, they blacklist addresses that have passed on them by law enforcement agencies and are obligated to seize funds to hand over various data to those agencies.

A test case for a mixer in a Court of law will be thoroughly informative. It will become interesting if we ever see a legal defence by the Chipmixer owner/operator or the Blender-Sinbad owner/operator (if either get arrested and presented before a Court).

Mehdi is confident of his fate though and most peobably if he even get caught he will also accept whatever sentence given.

He seem to have roam around bitcointalk since he shared the link https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2827109.0 emphasizing several anon services were not seized by governments.

Yes he seems confident but he refused to answer the question when it was put to him if Blender and Sinbad were related.

Relating Sinbad with Blender is mere rumors that have not been proven even the website publication used the word "may", which means that they are not sure that Sinbad is an offshoot of Blender.

The connection was made with a lot of proof, it is much more than a rumour.

Why single out only Sinbad, why not include the other mixers as well?

The article in Wired was specific to Blender and Sinbad therefore the thread however if I find one where an allegation has been made against another mixer (regardless of their name) I will not hesitate to post about it.

Maybe to run some contest or giveaway.

No

Is Whirlwind.money excluded from this dilemma even though they are engaged in the same type of business, or just because you didn't find a single article about it?

I found no article about Whirlwind that alluded to them being a criminal enterprise. As far as I am aware the Whirlwind team have not been accused of money laundering and have not been accused of being being behind Blender.

Or because you wear their signature.

No

Given that you wear the Whirlwind money signature, I assume that you are considered part of their team in some way. Isn't it a little inappropriate to negatively spin competitors without a valid reason?

Where is the negative spin? I created a thread to post a link to Wired.com

Do you know how long Chipmixer has been in business, and do you believe that it was only used by criminals in the last few months, so that was the reason for the investigation?

I have almost zero interest in Chipmixer and anything related to them including who used them and during which time periods. Also, I never used their service. I did apply maybe 3 times to join their signature campaign but was overlooked therefore stopped applying. Only the law enforcement agencies will be able to state their reasons for the investigation in to Chipmixer, I have no idea how long criminals used it for.

[examplens]

Eh, JollyGood is just asking a general question that's probably on the minds of quite a few members here, and as far as criminals using any mixer service.

It seems to me that JollyGood very clearly targeted only one mixer in the subject. He also leaves a reference to this discussion only in the Sinbad ANN thread, I would say try to dramatize everything more. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5416985.msg62321741#msg62321741
If you were to observe everything from the point of view of someone who came here to get information about which mixer to use, how do you see this Jolly's performance?

At the same time, he obviously did not research everything enough.

This has already been discussed, and T3PR00T posted the reference from those discussions.

There are already two topics about it on service discussion board:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5439754.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5446173.0

I'm pretty sure that the owner of Whirlwind or Hhampuz as a signature manager doesn't want this kind of campaign.

Can I ask a counter question, Is Whirlwind.money Next To Be Shutdown? 

Why stop there, earlier we saw different paths of the mixer. Can I start a global discussion about mixers with something like Is Whirlwind.money Next To Be an exit scam?
Or if The Sceptical Chymist wants it to be more global we can include Unijoin in this way, it would really encourage discussion. We just need to change the name of the mixer with passive accusations.

Also, to my knowledge Whirlwind have not been accused of money laundering by any law enforcement agency nor is their owner/operator the subject of an international arrest warrant. Having said that, criminals will use anything that is available for conducting (or trying to conduct) criminal acts.

Whirlwind has only been operating for a few months. How do you know the same thing won't happen to them? A group of hackers will mix coins through it and it can easily be accused of money laundering. As far as I know, not a single mixer has a solution to protect against "dirty funds".

btw. JollyGood did you read the discussions posted by T3PR00T before starting this topic?

[d5000]

I think, over time all mixers are going to be shut down by various government entities. Even if they are doing nothing illegitimate, for some reason everybody in law enforcement sees them as illegitimate.

There were times I thought this, too (especially after BitMixer and Blender were taking down). But I got some hope when I read the proposed regulation for crypto-asset transfers in the EU. They acknowledge clearly that there are legitimate uses of mixers here:

(34d) The use of mixing and tumbling services should only be allowed in circumstances where it can be shown that the use of such services is necessary to overcome legitimate concerns, such as for privacy reasons.

Source: Draft legislation 2021/0241 (COD)

It is implied that this means no general prohibition of mixing, however, that crypto asset service providers, when registering a transaction coming from a mixer and the transaction being suspicious, "should" collect additional data and/or a justification of the mixing "practice".

Of course this is only a draft proposal in one of the major economic regions, but it could indicate a "pragmatic" stance regarding mixers becoming more commonplace. It is also possible that mixing services themselves could be regulated eventually, i.e. for example determining maximum non-KYC amounts and otherwise some form of KYC (which would of course be difficult to be implemented by the current mixers like Sinbad, Whirlwind etc.).

Of course if it is suspected that a mixing operator has cooperated with criminals or acted with a high degree of negligence (i.e. not performing at least basic chain analysis for funds linked to major hacks/thefts/ransomware attacks), then further seizures are to be expected.

Edit: Unfortunately, the article I mentioned before was deleted from the final regulation draft. Instead a more ambiguos passage was introduced: that the European Banking Authority (EBA) should clarify the rules crypto-asset providers shall adopt when faced with transactions which went through mixers. So we have to wait what's the final outcome of this.

[JollyGood]

I think, over time all mixers are going to be shut down by various government entities. Even if they are doing nothing illegitimate, for some reason everybody in law enforcement sees them as illegitimate. I will also say, with more and more exchanges that are not requiring KYC going away I see privacy becoming more and more difficult to obtain.

I have the same sentiments, I think eventually mixing will be portrayed as being synonymous with criminal activity and that false narrative will be pushed out by those that wish to control the agenda. Yes mixers can be used for criminal activity but does not they will. but there might be some sort of radical transformation or implementations which could theoretically keep certain mixers out of trouble but it depends on how law enforcement agencies approach it in conjunction with mixers.

Tinfoil hat paranoia, the last mixer that is left standing is run by the NSA....

Eh, JollyGood is just asking a general question that's probably on the minds of quite a few members here, and as far as criminals using any mixer service....that's similar to the argument that bitcoin or [name your cryptocurrency] is/has been used for illicit purposes and therefore is bad.  It's a silly argument against crypto, and if it were valid then fiat should be bad as well as all guns, knives, and anything you can think of that's been the tool of criminals.

It certainly was a general question and that debate is twisted somewhat by those that see me wearing a signature and overlook the question raised. You are right it is a silly argument against crypto but those that are putting out false information on a regular basis by equating criminal activity to crypto are simply hiding ulterior motives. Like fiat can be used for nefarious purposes crypto can be too but that does not mean it is specifically a tool for criminals.

Who knows what the government is going to go after and with what amount of resources?  It seems as though all things crypto are under the microscope at the moment but that could change.  I do hope there are some powerful bitcoiners with political influence lobbying for us, because the little guys like myself can't really do much of anything to sway those politicians looking to criminalize mixers and whatever else.

If those that have become super-rich because of crypto get together to put forward an alternative view that is being projected against crypto then they could help manage the way crypto is talked about in political circles including the all-important financial departments. If lawmakers get a real understanding of what Bitcoin and other crypto are then they will be far more better placed to make the safest and best decisions.

It is inevitable that most if not all mixers will be used for (or will be attempted to be used by criminals for) nefarious purposes

It is inevitable that most if not all banks have been used by criminals for nefarious activities. How many closures have we had as a result of that? Even when banks engage in scams, they just get a slap on the wrist.

That is true, either they get financial penalties or bad headlines but hardly ever are there criminal cases against banks and when there are there is little to no talk about them being shut down. The problem Sinbad faces is different to competing mixers because none have been accused of being previously associated with Blender and that makes the difference here.

Can I ask a counter question, Is Whirlwind.money Next To Be Shutdown?  

You can as many questions as you like

If Sinbad is operated by the Blender team but Coinomize, YoMix and Whirlwind (and others) are not, then the chances are the others will last longer than Sinbad.

This is one of the concerns bitcoiners have had so far - and of course I think it's normal and makes sense.
The government will try to put up more of a fight for any mixer and it's definitely on their watch list. Of course their main reason is to prevent a lot of money laundering cases - but actually they seem to have another mission besides fighting crypto, confiscate bitcoin for example.

The same will probably be attributed to some of the other mixers currently growing and developing, but of course it's a matter of time. Until then, I think the government will shut down any mixer service like they have done other mixers before.

I cannot add more to what you wisely posted other than my opinion that all mixers are most probably being watched by various law enforcement agencies and the moment serious criminal activity is detected they will be shutdown.
 

[rby]

After Chipmixer, Is Sinbad.io Next To Be Shutdown?

I feel that this caption is not the best to use in this context. The body of your post showed clearly that you made a post as a user in the forum who is at liberty to express himself whenever and however.
But remembering that the signature and avatar you wear is the one of the major competitor of sinbad.io. You would have been kinda lenient in the choice of your title. Something like this could be more appropriate.

After Chipmixer, which mixer is Next To Be Shutdown?

Then, in the body of your post you would then mention the article sinbad was linked to blender or so.

[smyslov]

Can I ask a counter question, Is Whirlwind.money Next To Be Shutdown?  

If there is going to have a thread like that, then we will have episodes of the names of the mixer that will likely next target to be shut down, if we're asking about what happened to Chipmixer and the fate of the other mixers the topic should be generalized for all mixers not just one, as if the authorities have only eyes on Sinbad

And there's openness on Sindad's founder based on the article you provided

https://www.wired.com/story/sinbad-crypto-mixer-north-korean-hackers/

As for the tens of millions of dollars that North Korean hackers laundered through Sinbad? "Your magazine is the first one to ever contact me about this issue," Mehdi writes. "In case I receive a request from [Chainalysis] or any other institution I will investigate the matter and make my opinion on it."

So the founder is willing to address the issue and not ignore it or run away from it.

[Learn Bitcoin]

Why stop there, earlier we saw different paths of the mixer. Can I start a global discussion about mixers with something like Is Whirlwind.money Next To Be an exit scam?
Or if The Sceptical Chymist wants it to be more global we can include Unijoin in this way, it would really encourage discussion. We just need to change the name of the mixer with passive accusations.

It seems like you want to create a war among the Mixer World Campaign participant
Do you know one thing? People are interested more in negative things. If you spread negative things, more and more people will engage with this and will find it interesting to discuss. While I believe JollyGood's title choice is a bit weird. He could have used better wording not to poke Sinbad. But the title makes it more interesting to read.

examplens, did you see the fact LeGaulois posted in another thread? It seems Sinbad and Blender Owner is the same. Since Blender was seized, and now it's exposed that Sinbad is Blender, they should take action and come up with a new brand name.

Fact 1: the signature campaign for sinbad.io was paid with funds coming from Blender's wallet

Coincidence? Blender's admin is so kind that he decided to pay the campaign's participants? For a service he has nothing to do with?
Blender decided to become a charity person?

Fact 2: almost all of the early incoming TXs to Sinbad were coming from the suspected Blender's wallet.
Suspected, but blockchain forensics companies are rarely wrong

Fact 3: Both use approximatively the same methods to obfuscate their transactions

Fact 4: Both use a 10 digit mixer codes

[Timelord2067]

I can't really add much to the discussion and my only disclosure is that I once applied but didn't get a look in and so never reapplied for the chipmixer signature campaign (or any other mixers for that matter) after that.

Not long after my application was turned down, the fee being paid to signature participants collapsed but was still very lucrative nevertheless.

I agree with DaveF's sentiment that users seeking mixed coins will probably turn to depositing crypto to exchange A, split the coins into many chunks e.g. three, four or five) or many more) swap them for other crypto and or tokens then send those tokens to other exchanges B, C and D or even uniswap/pancake swap style instant exchanges to either swap back to what ever crypto they were and then sent on to the final destination or yet another exchange, rinse and repeate.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if perhaps a couple of the people taking out short term loans of a thousand dollars at a time on a very regular basis are repaying with laundered money either from Ponzi/hyip style scams, or, money filtered through the above method.

Has anyone else noticed after the initial toxic shock of the chipmixer demise that certain high and not so high profile UID's have started tailing off the amount of their posting...?

Then there is also the rumour that @theymos has sent out an edit that no admin/staff moderators are allowed to join mixing signature campaigns.