The wikipedia entry for "Bitcoin" is so bearish...

[seriouscoin]

Money is things with true value that aren't based on someone promising you that it will be worth something tomorrow (certainly not a bunch of criminals), things like Gold, Silver, Platinum etc.

If all the humans who value those things (Gold, Silver, Platinum, etc.) die today, those things wouldn't be money either, so I think your definition is lacking.

True value doesn't exist. Value is a relationship. Something or someone has to give value the object being valued.

Please stop trying to blur the line between actual useful resources and fancy seashells that you and your pals dug up, some things have intrinsic values like Gold, some thing have value for their use as a currency and the free market (such as Bitcoin) some have none like USD.

Since opinions on the ideal currency change this only leaves Gold with solid intrinsic values, you can no more call a dollar bill money than a seashell.

Intrinsic value? How much intrinsic value does gold have in a world with no humans? The poor combination of words "intrinsic value" still requires a relationship to provide that value. I don't see anything intrinsic about the value.

Heck i find most idiots on here even dont know value =! price.

Like the idiot who said fiat money issued by government and backed by government always has value.....

Yeah.... 1 trillion zimbawe dollars has as much value as my dog's poop.

[oztusk]

i agree, bitcoin is fiat

[twiifm]

The block chain is a ledger but there is no issuer to guarantee the value.

I'm fairly certain that is a feature, not a flaw.

Alll I'm saying is bitcoin is entirely faith based because no issuer backs the value.  This makes then entire system unstable and can crash if that faith is challenged

What an idiot.

Define value idiot.

10USD will always be 10USD but its value is never the same thro times.

Exactly.  With 1$, it is always worth 1$ because backed by issuer.  I didn't say anything about purchasing power.

But 1 bitcoin is only worth 1 bitcoin because users "believe" in it.  There is no issuer to back the value.  It could vanish.  Maybe I'm confusing you w the word "value".  If no one issued the currency then there is no one to take it back.  If there is no one to take it back it loses its "value"

[seriouscoin]

The block chain is a ledger but there is no issuer to guarantee the value.

I'm fairly certain that is a feature, not a flaw.

Alll I'm saying is bitcoin is entirely faith based because no issuer backs the value.  This makes then entire system unstable and can crash if that faith is challenged

What an idiot.

Define value idiot.

10USD will always be 10USD but its value is never the same thro times.

Exactly.  But 1 bitcoin is only worth 1 bitcoin because users "believe" in it.  There is no issuer to back the value.  It could vanish

With 1$, it is always worth 1$ because backed by issuer.  I didn't say anything about purchasing power

Do you even read what you wrote?

You said  fiat money's issuer back its value then made a fool of yourself by not even knowing what value means.

So explain to me what the issuer back then? $1 is $1 , 1 btc is 1 btc. Issuer or no issuer.

[seriouscoin]

The block chain is a ledger but there is no issuer to guarantee the value.

I'm fairly certain that is a feature, not a flaw.

Alll I'm saying is bitcoin is entirely faith based because no issuer backs the value.  This makes then entire system unstable and can crash if that faith is challenged

What an idiot.

Define value idiot.

10USD will always be 10USD but its value is never the same thro times.

Exactly.  With 1$, it is always worth 1$ because backed by issuer.  I didn't say anything about purchasing power.

But 1 bitcoin is only worth 1 bitcoin because users "believe" in it.  There is no issuer to back the value.  It could vanish.  Maybe I'm confusing you w the word "value". If no one issued the currency then there is no one to take it back.  If there is no one to take it back it loses its "value"

Did you fcking read "zimbawee dollars has as much value as my dog's poop"

Retard, value cant be backed by anyone. Something has value because someone willing to give its value.

In 1923, the German actually burn their money to keep themselves warm. Yes the "issuer" could take those bills back too... is that value to you?

[twiifm]

The block chain is a ledger but there is no issuer to guarantee the value.

Did you fcking read "zimbawee dollars has as much value as my dog's poop"

Retard, value cant be backed by anyone. Something has value because someone willing to give its value.

Please child, calm down.  No one said price is guaranteed.  What I said is money comes from an issuer who backs that money as a promissory.  Whether its convertible to grain, gold or legal tender.  Doesn't matter if its currency form is rocks, shells, coins or sticks w notches in them.  All money have the same quality.  They are financial instruments.  Essentially an IOU.  Because it is issued and backed you can go around and exchange with other people as money.  Of course if the issuer goes insolvent the money cease to exist because the issuer cease to exist

Bitcoin has no issuer.  Its entirely faith based.  Its fiat like USD because it is not convertible to anything except bitcoin.  Except USD are legal tender meaning I can pay my debts to the US govt with it i.e. taxes which I am required to do by law.  Get it?

[seriouscoin]

The block chain is a ledger but there is no issuer to guarantee the value.

Did you fcking read "zimbawee dollars has as much value as my dog's poop"

Retard, value cant be backed by anyone. Something has value because someone willing to give its value.

Please child, calm down.  No one said price is guaranteed.  What I said is money comes from an issuer who backs that money as a promissory.  Whether its convertible to grain, gold or legal tender.  Doesn't matter if its currency form is rocks, shells, coins or sticks w notches in them.  All money have the same quality.  They are financial instruments.  Essentially an IOU.  Because it is issued and backed you can go around and exchange with other people as money.  Of course if the issuer goes insolvent the money cease to exist because the issuer cease to exist

Bitcoin has no issuer.  Its entirely faith based.  Its fiat like USD because it is not convertible to anything except bitcoin.  Except USD are legal tender meaning I can pay my debts to the US govt with it i.e. taxes which I am required to do by law.  Get it?

All that rambling and you still couldnt argue your point of "its value is backed by issuer"

Who told you the German government didnt exist during 1923?
Like you said, USD is a promissory by the government. What that means is $1 USD will always be $1. However, its value is never promised or backed by the issuer. Legal tender does not give its value. Zimbawee dollars are also legal tender in the country. Can you stop making a fool of yourself?

Bitcoin doesnt need a promise because its verifiable and not counterfeit-able.

None of both are promised in value.

[twiifm]

Hey man I explained everything in the clearest language I can.  If you still don't understand it I recommend you read some economics books.  You keep getting stuck on the word "value" which you confuse with price.  I'm using "value" correctly as an economic  term

This is the formula of value as it relates to monetary instruments;



Where the subscript t indicates the present time, Pt is the current fair value, Yn is the income at a future time n, FVN is the face value that will prevail at maturity, Et indicates current expectations about income and face value, dt is the current discount rate imposed by bearers, N is the time lapse until maturity (n = 0 is the issuance time). There is a wide variety of financial instruments using that formula. On one extreme are modern monetary instruments that, provide no income (Y = 0), have an instantaneous maturity (N = 0), and are widely expected to be taken back by their issuers at their initial face value at any time, Pt = FV0. On the other extreme are stocks and consols that have a positive expected income and an infinite maturity, Pt = Et(Y)/dt.

Given the nature of monetary instruments, they have also other characteristics common to all financial instruments. First, all financial instruments are accounting creatures. They are the asset of the bearer and the liability of the issuer. Gold coins were the liability of, e.g., the King, Federal Reserve notes are liability of the Federal Reserve, and coins are the liability of the Treasury. Currency is their liability because they (at least) promise to take their currency from bearers in payments at any time; issuers owe that to the bearers. That is partly how their scarcity is controlled. Second, all financial instruments have a fair value that is defined as the discount value of future streams of monetary payments.

If you aren't equipped to understand economics stop embarrassing yourself when someone with that background is trying to help you learn

[Mikerogers]

Anyone could've made that wiki page, prob the US govt trying to ruin BTC reputation

[mycoin25]

ust like central banks back their currency's exchange rate on forex exchanges, bitcoin is also backed by numerous miners and supporters on exchanges, no more other backing is needed, those who understand its true value will back it with fiat money on exchanges

[seriouscoin]

Hey man I explained everything in the clearest language I can.  If you still don't understand it I recommend you read some economics books.  You keep getting stuck on the word "value" which you confuse with price.  I'm using "value" correctly as an economic  term

This is the formula of value as it relates to monetary instruments;



Where the subscript t indicates the present time, Pt is the current fair value, Yn is the income at a future time n, FVN is the face value that will prevail at maturity, Et indicates current expectations about income and face value, dt is the current discount rate imposed by bearers, N is the time lapse until maturity (n = 0 is the issuance time). There is a wide variety of financial instruments using that formula. On one extreme are modern monetary instruments that, provide no income (Y = 0), have an instantaneous maturity (N = 0), and are widely expected to be taken back by their issuers at their initial face value at any time, Pt = FV0. On the other extreme are stocks and consols that have a positive expected income and an infinite maturity, Pt = Et(Y)/dt.

Given the nature of monetary instruments, they have also other characteristics common to all financial instruments. First, all financial instruments are accounting creatures. They are the asset of the bearer and the liability of the issuer. Gold coins were the liability of, e.g., the King, Federal Reserve notes are liability of the Federal Reserve, and coins are the liability of the Treasury. Currency is their liability because they (at least) promise to take their currency from bearers in payments at any time; issuers owe that to the bearers. That is partly how their scarcity is controlled. Second, all financial instruments have a fair value that is defined as the discount value of future streams of monetary payments.

If you aren't equipped to understand economics stop embarrassing yourself when someone with that background is trying to help you learn

This has nothing to do with fiat money backed by an issuer would mean there must be value, idiot.

And if you have to copy someone's blog, at least quote it and giving credits to the author.

Dont pretend like you wrote it, how embarrassing....   Do you also copy other's essay in school?

Link to the original article: http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2013/12/fair-price-bitcoin-zero.html

I read this sometimes in Jan. I will give you sometime to think b4 i come back to explain the flaw.

[twiifm]

You're right I copy & pasted from that blog cause I happen to follow MMT.  I never claimed it was my writing and this is forum not a paper.  Next time I'll credit so I apologize to you & the author for that.  But the formula is a standard one in finance so the point remains the same. 

I don't know why you keep asking about "proof of value".  I'm trying to define money for you.  BTC is fiat & USD is fiat - they are both fiat.  The value is 1USD is convertible to 1USD.  The value of 1BTC is convertible to 1BTC.  One of them is money the other is not.  The difference is USD is issued by the govt, BTC is not issued by anyone.  Sounds like you want to know future buying power which akin to time value of money so use this formula if you want to calculate that. 

In order for bitcoin to be money it needs to be issued.  If it is not issued who ever holds that bitcoin in the future cannot return to the issuer and claim value (of 1BTC).  If I found a bitcoin on a hard drive I can't go to an issuer to claim the value because there is no issuer.  Nothing is backing the currency except pure faith so in theory it has no "moneyness".  For me to use that bitcoin in a transaction the receiver need to have pure faith that it is money.  He has to take my word that it is worth something.  IOW BTC is built on a house of cards.  If you found a USD you can transact w it because you and the merchant knows the Fed issued it.  USD has no intrinsic value but it has market value because we have legal obligations to pay taxes.  The demand for USD is always guaranteed so there is always a market for USD.  If anyone wants to do business w the US gov they need dollars.  Simple as that.  This is not a theory I am merely describing reality.

Right now the market price of BTC is based solely on trading.  So BTC behaves like a commodity not money.  Trading a BTC for goods or services is bartering not using money.  Its no different than trading apples for oranges.  For example:  Gold is not money, but gold coins are money.  The money part has nothing to do with intrinsic value of gold.  A $100 gold coin might only have $10 of melt value.  But its "value" is $100 because a King or some issued it and backs that value.  Money is a concept.  It only exist as a score keeping in a system of debt & credit.  This is why I don't understand your question about value.  Are you talking the price?  Or intrinsic value or utility value?  All I'm saying is that money requires issuance because all moneys are claims on "something".  They are essentially IOUs.  That is not BTC.  BTC is a ledger, BTC a protocol but it is NOT MONEY.  Anyone who understands economics and money systems understand this

I don't how many times I gotta write up the same thing.  I'm done on this topic.  You are a rude prick

Why do I have to prove to you that fiat is money or has value?  It is money because thats the definition of money.  What's there to prove?  I don't think you even understand what money is.  Why don't you prove BTC is money.  I bet you can't.  Bitcoin is just computer code written by some unknown guy(s) and sold to some paranoid "crypto -anarchists" a story of corrupt bankers & govts stealing their money.  And because of that you think its money?  You think people prefer to store their wealth in magic beans even though they don't know where it comes from and no way to claim?  ROFL.  Yeah good luck w that.  Most people aren't as stupid as you are. 

I hope you put your entire net worth in BTC.  Please please prove me wrong and buy all the bitcoin you can afford.  Sell your house, sell your wife, sell your kids and buy bit coins.  Its the greatest thing ever.  hahhaha

Good night

[pungopete468]

To dispel some of the myths floating around in this thread...

Gold does not have intrinsic value; the only things with intrinsic value are food, water, shelter, and the preservation of human life.

A starving man would trade a gold bar for a cheeseburger if he felt it made the difference between life and death...

So Gold has no intrinsic value. Gold does serve a dual purpose and I think many of you have mistaken "intrinsic value" for "value outside that of a medium of exchange."

Gold can be melted into jewelry, electronics, etc...

So, serving a dual purpose outside of the medium of exchange means that money must offer some additional utility (service) to be considered money...

Bitcoin as a decentralized public ledger can and will be utilized for services outside that of money. Bitcoin will be used for DAC's, legal contracts, property deeds, etc... Both gold and Bitcoin have utility outside of finance alone. If Bitcoin doesn't serve the world as a currency it will certainly serve the world as a distributed service platform.

1 BTC will always be 1 BTC, we don't need a central authority to "back it" or tell us that mathematically 1 will always be 1. Why would anybody assume that a government backed fiat currency is "better" after considering who backs the government? The people back the government, Bitcoin along with every other form of money is just "people backing people" only Bitcoin does it much more efficiently.

Bitcoin can not become insolvent. Currencies that are "backed" by a central authority can fail when the central authority becomes insolvent. The problem is; when a government currency collapses, people are still using the currency widely the entire time! Using Bitcoin as a currency would ensure that it can never become worthless. That is a major advantage over every other system we've ever had.

Inflation and debasement are both shadow taxes. When a currency is inflated, the central authority is taking profits by giving themselves new money. When a currency is debased, the central authority is taking profits by reducing the weight of precious metal while maintaining the same face value... Both inflationary fiat and deflationary asset backed government currencies are opportunistic when it comes to the ability of the government to enrich itself at the expense of the population which upholds it.

Bitcoin is a better currency than the fiat we have today, and it is a better currency than the gold standard before that. The people have been supporting governments for a very long time, it's not hard to see where the historical weaknesses have been. The people can back a currency without an authority when the protocol itself is immutable. People are bound to abide by the rules of the protocol; that is unprecedented in the history of money.

[phelix]

It's missing a chapter on Bitcoin's huge potential...

http://theumlaut.com/2013/05/21/bitcoins-untapped-possibilities/

[notbatman]

Q: What do Bears, Bulls and Whales have in common?
A: They're animals.

People are emotional animals, a person is a reasonable intellect. Bitcoin is not for animals, bad dog!

[timecoin]

Bitcoin is entirely popular people to believe it, so the monetary system is unstable, finally battle between faith and right!

Currency is a representation of money.  One dollar bill represents 1 USD, 10 dollar bill represents 10 USD.

Money are financial instruments.  Dollar is a unit of account for Federal Reserve notes which is issued by US govt as promissory of "legal tender".  Meaning the govt will accept is as payment of debt.  i.e. taxes.  That's what makes it money

[johnyj]

Just like central banks back their currency's exchange rate on forex exchanges, bitcoin is also backed by numerous miners and supporters on exchanges, no more other backing is needed, those who understand its true value will back it with fiat money on exchanges

[bitcoinbranches]

If wikipedia officially starts accepting bitcoin donations, the perception will change.

[Bit_Happy]

It's much more simple:
BTC is Money since others accept it as money.
Prior to the $10,000BTC pizza, the point was a lot more debatable.

Wikipedias article is supposed to be neutral right so should a proposal from someone with better knowledge be sent aka an edit

Anyone can attempt to edit, then see if it holds.

[jonald_fyookball]

This is why I don't support donating anything to Wikipedia... It's supposed to be 'anyone can edit' but rarely is when it's anything important.