Is there interest in a standalone low power miner?

[Skot]

My guess for fields to roll on chip, from easiest to hardest:

1. ntime: you can roll this field for "free" as long as you don't go more than 2 hours in the past or 2 hours in the future. Rolling into the past is especially risky. You don't want to get a golden nonce rejected because ntime is bad!
2. version: if you roll the version field you have to recalculate the midstate. ASICs are pretty dang good at hashing, so why not do this every now and then? You just have to abide by the version mask negotiated with the stratum pool.
3. extranonce: this would be madness. you have to recalculate the Merkel root, so you would need to send the merkle tree to the ASIC. bleh.

[rapsacw]

Nearly every stratum pool I have seen supports the version-rolling extension. that adds a version_bits field to mining.submit. afaik It's necessary to support ASICboost.

You learn something everyday. I've not seen any reference to this extension.

Where does 60x come from? every 30s is pretty leisurely compared to every 8ms @ 500 GH/s with nonce rolling alone!

I don't know where I've read that you may only increase ntime, and only upto 60 seconds. Reading ck's pool source I find

   /* Ntime cannot be less, but allow forward ntime rolling up to max */
   if (ntime32 < wb->ntime32 || ntime32 > wb->ntime32 + 7000) {
      err = SE_NTIME_INVALID;

So at least ckpool allows upto 7000x! No more xnonce2 rollover needed for small miners 

120 TH/s over 3 hashboards = 40 TH/s each, which means each hashboard can cover the 32 bit nonce space in 0.1ms. The newer ASICs have more midstates too, so that means bigger job packet. No way serial can keep up. It makes sense that they would include some sort of work generation on-chip. I'm really curious which field they are rolling.

Exactly.

[kano]

...
I don't know where I've read that you may only increase ntime, and only upto 60 seconds. Reading ck's pool source I find

   /* Ntime cannot be less, but allow forward ntime rolling up to max */
   if (ntime32 < wb->ntime32 || ntime32 > wb->ntime32 + 7000) {
      err = SE_NTIME_INVALID;

So at least ckpool allows upto 7000x! No more xnonce2 rollover needed for small miners 
...

Alas that code doesn't consider the actual restrictions in bitcoin.
He has no idea about it.

[rapsacw]

..
Alas that code doesn't consider the actual restrictions in bitcoin.
He has no idea about it.

I am not going to risc it and limit ntime rolling to a safe 60s, this should work

/*
 * Create block header for new job by incrementing ntime and/or xnonce2,
 * calls Header_construct to create a new binary block header.
 */
void Header_nextjob()
{
  // m_ntimeBCKUP contains the ntime value received from pool
  // m_Tntime contains the time (in ms) when work was received from pool
  if(m_RollednTime<(MAX_NTIME_ROLL+(millis()-m_Tntime))/1000)
  {
    inc_4bin(m_ntime); // increment nTime
    m_RollednTime++;
    Header_construct(0); // contruct new block header, don't calculate new merkle
  }
  else
  {
    inc_nbin(m_xnonce2,m_xnonce2sz);
    memcpy(m_ntime,m_ntimeBCKUP,4); // restore ntime to unrolled value
    m_RollednTime = 0;
    Header_construct(1); // construct new block header, calculate new merkle
  }
}

where MAX_NTIME_ROLL = 60

Thanks.

[Skot]

Anyway, that's not the case with an S19 chip - it does work generation in the chip - so you don't have to send work very often at all.

Whoa! This is blowing mind! Is the BM1398 (and BM1362) version rolling on the chip?? I would love to learn more about this.

Or maybe they are ntime rolling? I guess that’s a lot easier.

Just to follow up on this; I have noticed a single S19XP hashboard with a chain of 110 ASICs (BM1366), running at 46 TH/s sends out new work to the whole chain every 2.14s
if it were just rolling nonce, the chain would need new work every 93us

This means you could easily control many 10s of TH/s with a microcontroller.

[rapsacw]

Just to follow up on this; I have noticed a single S19XP hashboard with a chain of 110 ASICs (BM1366), running at 46 TH/s sends out new work to the whole chain every 2.14s
if it were just rolling nonce, the chain would need new work every 93us

Its a shame there is so little info on the newer chips.
On a happier note; my redesigned version can be pushed to 350GHs+, and on a sad note; the 3.3V regulator from Mouser is either fake or junk as it blows instantly when fed with 12V (also blew up the esp), so I will have to do another version yet again with another regulator which will again take a month to produce/test.

[g5120u]

Seeing home power enthusiasts gradually achieve the world's highest chip minimum wattage is a milestone, but seeing resellers now selling it for hundreds of dollars more than older equipment still feels like a high barrier to entry for beginners, not to mention extra shipping from around the world

 

[rapsacw]

That is what lack of competition (or demand) will do I guess.

[floridaman86]

I'm developing a series of standalone miners built around BM1387 & BM1397 asics and an ESP32-C3. I've been working on these for over 1 year now and I think I've got enough knowledge now to make a version that can be mass produced, the question I have now: is anyone interested in such a miner?
The configuration I'm thinking of has the following properties:
- Standalone, only a usb charger with 5V/3A needed and a wireless connection.
- Single BM1397 asic.
- Hash rate of 200GHs upto 250GHs (and more probably).
- Power consumption out of the wall 8-15W (depending on efficiency of the charger and hash rate).
- My own miner software (open source, in beta stage, fully working but lousy UI) based on Arduino libraries that allows manual on the fly voltage and frequency settings.
- totally not worth running on a non-solo pool, but a cheap lottery ticket where you enter the drawing for free every 10 minutes for as long as you live(*)..

I've designed my hardware around parts that are for sale on aliexpress, but for mass production I will have to redesign parts of it using components for sale at mouser.com , and I will need to find a company willing to produce them (a problem as the asics are not sold by any big electronics reseller), and also sell them. Currently I'm thinking of seeedstudio.com, but I haven't contacted them yet to see if they are both willing and capable (sourcing the bm1397's and soldering them on the backside of the pcb).
There is also a open source version with bm1387 asics (that I could also redesign to use mouser parts) that you can built yourself (advanced electronic soldering capabilities/tools required).
I have 6 prototypes running, live stats https://solo.ckpool.org/users/1KgwWwBh7qGtcWJ9ZRNTUbVCR1L2qYkzcy, 3 bm1387 versions (2 with 2 asics, one with 4 asics), and three single bm1397 versions (workernames containing 'test').
I started out designing the miners for personal use and therefor used parts from aliexpress but I'm so satisfied with them (they will run as long as the internet connection is up, and will reconnect in 99.9% of the cases when it is not, the 0.01% is caused by a quirk in the esp software) that *I think* others might be interested in them also.
But it will require another hardware redesign which is not needed for my personal use miners.
So, should I invest the time (and money) in this for you? Or is this a niche product? I have no idea what the retail price will be in the end, but the pcb hardware and assembly should not be much more than $50, add to that a margin the the sales & production, an included cooling solution (say $5 for the heatsink and another $2 for a fan, $x for 2 small 3D printed clips to mount everything) and that should be it.
Comment in this topic if interested, or if you think this is stupid, you won't hurt my feelings as I have already got what I set out to achieve.

(*) I'm not sure if any (solo) pool will support low hash rate miners in the future. Pool operators have to pay for their hardware and connection, and a low hash rate miner costs them as much as a complete mining farm. Maybe CK can answer that.

ps: new forum user with (unknown to me) restrictions, my old user name got lost in 2016)

edit:
I've redesigned the miner to use standard parts, but sadly i'll have to make another one as one of the buck converters from mouser.com is apparently a fake
Anyway, I did some stress testing to see what it can handle and got this https://github.com/rapsacw/aSiNine-ESP-miner/blob/main/ui.png

I think there is interest in low power miners, especially if they're quiet, but 200GH is way too low. You won't mine anything with such little power.
to gain any real interest, you will need to get the hash power in the range of 3-5 TH. And keep the noise below 50db.
If you can accomplish that, you can probably sell the miner in the range of $750-$1,000. and be competitive with Futurebit

[philipma1957]

I'm developing a series of standalone miners built around BM1387 & BM1397 asics and an ESP32-C3. I've been working on these for over 1 year now and I think I've got enough knowledge now to make a version that can be mass produced, the question I have now: is anyone interested in such a miner?
The configuration I'm thinking of has the following properties:
- Standalone, only a usb charger with 5V/3A needed and a wireless connection.
- Single BM1397 asic.
- Hash rate of 200GHs upto 250GHs (and more probably).
- Power consumption out of the wall 8-15W (depending on efficiency of the charger and hash rate).
- My own miner software (open source, in beta stage, fully working but lousy UI) based on Arduino libraries that allows manual on the fly voltage and frequency settings.
- totally not worth running on a non-solo pool, but a cheap lottery ticket where you enter the drawing for free every 10 minutes for as long as you live(*)..

I've designed my hardware around parts that are for sale on aliexpress, but for mass production I will have to redesign parts of it using components for sale at mouser.com , and I will need to find a company willing to produce them (a problem as the asics are not sold by any big electronics reseller), and also sell them. Currently I'm thinking of seeedstudio.com, but I haven't contacted them yet to see if they are both willing and capable (sourcing the bm1397's and soldering them on the backside of the pcb).
There is also a open source version with bm1387 asics (that I could also redesign to use mouser parts) that you can built yourself (advanced electronic soldering capabilities/tools required).
I have 6 prototypes running, live stats https://solo.ckpool.org/users/1KgwWwBh7qGtcWJ9ZRNTUbVCR1L2qYkzcy, 3 bm1387 versions (2 with 2 asics, one with 4 asics), and three single bm1397 versions (workernames containing 'test').
I started out designing the miners for personal use and therefor used parts from aliexpress but I'm so satisfied with them (they will run as long as the internet connection is up, and will reconnect in 99.9% of the cases when it is not, the 0.01% is caused by a quirk in the esp software) that *I think* others might be interested in them also.
But it will require another hardware redesign which is not needed for my personal use miners.
So, should I invest the time (and money) in this for you? Or is this a niche product? I have no idea what the retail price will be in the end, but the pcb hardware and assembly should not be much more than $50, add to that a margin the the sales & production, an included cooling solution (say $5 for the heatsink and another $2 for a fan, $x for 2 small 3D printed clips to mount everything) and that should be it.
Comment in this topic if interested, or if you think this is stupid, you won't hurt my feelings as I have already got what I set out to achieve.

(*) I'm not sure if any (solo) pool will support low hash rate miners in the future. Pool operators have to pay for their hardware and connection, and a low hash rate miner costs them as much as a complete mining farm. Maybe CK can answer that.

ps: new forum user with (unknown to me) restrictions, my old user name got lost in 2016)

edit:
I've redesigned the miner to use standard parts, but sadly i'll have to make another one as one of the buck converters from mouser.com is apparently a fake
Anyway, I did some stress testing to see what it can handle and got this https://github.com/rapsacw/aSiNine-ESP-miner/blob/main/ui.png

I think there is interest in low power miners, especially if they're quiet, but 200GH is way too low. You won't mine anything with such little power.
to gain any real interest, you will need to get the hash power in the range of 3-5 TH. And keep the noise below 50db.
If you can accomplish that, you can probably sell the miner in the range of $750-$1,000. and be competitive with Futurebit

If you could build a 220 watt machine that does 10th you would get buyers. You could also charge a premium.

[rapsacw]

The target user of this little miner isn't looking for 100W+ miners, they can buy one new from antminer. Furthermore 22W/Ths is in the (distant) future because there is little to no information on the newer chips making 3rd party miners impossible. As I said in the opening post; these are not meant to be run on a normal pool, but can be used to solo mine (with a chance of ~1:25000 of finding a block per year) giving a better chance of a substantial prize than a lottery ticket. And you will learn a few things running such a small miner, such as what big numbers really mean, how pools work, how to run a miner at peak efficiency, how to cool electronics etc.

[kano]

Seriously?

Took me less than an hour to analyse the work data control necessary for an S19 chip.
Of course someone else spent many hours connecting up all the hardware to dump and format the data so I could do it,
but if you're gonna say it's that hard without trying, then I'd worry about anyone using anything you built.

While 'we' do already have the info to do a 3rd party miner with the chip, unfortunately it's not a priority at the moment

[rapsacw]

Seriously?

Took me less than an hour to analyse the work data control necessary for an S19 chip.
Of course someone else spent many hours connecting up all the hardware to dump and format the data so I could do it,
but if you're gonna say it's that hard without trying, then I'd worry about anyone using anything you built.

While 'we' do already have the info to do a 3rd party miner with the chip, unfortunately it's not a priority at the moment

Ok, now try to do it without access to miner (and a pool(emulation) so you know what data is send to the chips)
I've got a diy logger, but no miner.. The hardware side is not a big problem though.
I've done my part in dissecting protocols and the underlying meaning of the data that goes over a unknown bus by analyzing the communication of the meade autostar system and constructed a meade compatible servo and stepper motor driver for astro mounts and I'm sure I could do likewise with x19(+) miners, but without a miner??
I do find it strange that info on X19(+) miners isn't available years after the release of the miners.

On my standalone BM1397 miner; the revised revision pcb's have arrived and I've built one prototype. Regarding the cost (if you desperately want to know), the bom is something like this (missing the usb connector and optional DG301 screw terminal):

Code:

Part           Value           Device          Package         Description                  MF MPN OC_FARNELL OC_NEWARK PROD_ID  
C1,C2,C3,C4,C6,C12,C13,C14,C15,C20,C35,[C37],C38    4.7uF/16V       C-EUC0402       C0402           CAPACITOR, European symbol                                        
C5             56pF            C-EUC0402       C0402           CAPACITOR, European symbol                                        
C7,C10,C11,C21,C24,C36,C31,C34             100nF           C-EUC0402       C0402           CAPACITOR, European symbol                                        
C8,C9,C18,C26             22uF/25V        C-EUC0805       C0805           CAPACITOR, European symbol                                        
C16,C17,C22,C23            47uF/6.3V       C-EUC0805       C0805           CAPACITOR, European symbol                                        
D1             WS2812          WS2812_5050     WS2812-5X5-4PIN Addressable RGB LED - 1 Wire                             DIO-12503
ESP32C3-MINI-1 ESP32-C3-MINI-1 ESP32C3MINI     ESP32C3MINI                                                                       
L$2            3.3uH           NR201610        NR201610                                                                          
L4             1uh             R-EU_R0402      R0402           RESISTOR, European symbol                                         
R1             49.9k           R-EU_R0402      R0402           RESISTOR, European symbol                                         
R2,R4,R10             2k2             R-EU_R0402      R0402           RESISTOR, European symbol                                         
R3,R5             1k5             R-EU_R0402      R0402           RESISTOR, European symbol                                         
R6,R7,R8,R29,R36,R41             1k              R-EU_R0402      R0402           RESISTOR, European symbol                                         
R9             82k             R-EU_R0402      R0402           RESISTOR, European symbol                                         
R11            20R             R-EU_R0402      R0402           RESISTOR, European symbol                                         
R12,R17,R40,R31            4k7             R-EU_R0402      R0402           RESISTOR, European symbol                                         
R13,R25,R26            15k             R-EU_R0402      R0402           RESISTOR, European symbol                                         
R14            22R             R-EU_R0402      R0402           RESISTOR, European symbol                                         
R16,R22            5k1             R-EU_R0402      R0402           RESISTOR, European symbol                                         
R18            30k             R-EU_R0402      R0402           RESISTOR, European symbol                                         
R34            33k             R-EU_R0603      R0603           RESISTOR, European symbol                                         
R35            22k             R-EU_R0402      R0402           RESISTOR, European symbol                                         
R37            ntc 33k B3950        R-EU_R0402      R0402           RESISTOR, European symbol                                         
T1             2N3904          2N3904          SOT23           NPN TRANSISTOR                                                    
U$1            BM1397-1        BM1397AG        BM1391                                                                            
U$2            TPS56C2150Z6-7  TPS56C2150Z6-7  VQFN-HR                                                                           
U$3            0.68uH           L10040           L10040                                                                             
U$4            XC6206P18       XC6206P         SOT23                                                                             
U$7            SY8113A         SY8113A         SOT23L-6                                                                          
U$14           PT8211S         PT8211          SO-8                                                                              
U$22           25MHz           OSC3225         3225            Active oscillator 25MHz 3225 1.8V                                          

Most parts are available at jlcpcb (except the bm1397ag) but as good as all parts are extended parts (meaning $3,- per part, ~$100,- per batch of upto 30pcs on top of the part prices).
Efficiency is at 12.5W @ 300GHs when fed with 9V (according to my crappy usb power meter), live stats still on https://solo.ckpool.org/users/1KgwWwBh7qGtcWJ9ZRNTUbVCR1L2qYkzcy (workername": "1KgwWwBh7qGtcWJ9ZRNTUbVCR1L2qYkzcy.test1397_12B")

[Skot]

Rapsacw,

This is seriously impressive work that you’ve done. Despite what some claim, this is no easy task! Keep doing what you’re doing and publishing your work. Bitcoin and by extension the world will be better off for it.

[Flexystar]

What is the difference between yours and the GekkoScience Compac F?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5355470.0

Things like this are and will always be a hobby project for people to play with but there is nothing wrong with making it and trying to sell it.

Just keep in mind, you will have to support it, and deal with issues with them and so on.

But, it still looks like a cool project.
Post image links, since you are a new users they will not show up in the post but people can quote / click on them.

-Dave

This is valid point but more than that I am loving the fact that OP is highly passionate about his project and working on the same since one year now. I think I would love to have such miner in my house running all the time like heater in the corner. I would be more than happy to pay the bills for it since it will be generating something all the time. I am anyway holder of bitcoin so if they just mine and sit in my wallet then also I would be more than happy.

However, this has to be real simple layman consumable product with not much wirings, not much maintenance kind of stuff. Since I am not a hard core miner I would be more focused on the hobby scale and flashing it as if I do mine. 

So one positive vote from my end. You should really up scale it and bring the product in market.

[rapsacw]

.. I think I would love to have such miner in my house running all the time like heater in the corner. I would be more than happy to pay the bills for it since it will be generating something all the time. I am anyway holder of bitcoin so if they just mine and sit in my wallet then also I would be more than happy.

However, this has to be real simple layman consumable product with not much wirings, not much maintenance kind of stuff. Since I am not a hard core miner I would be more focused on the hobby scale and flashing it as if I do mine. 

You won't heat much with 12.5W The only practical heating use I can think of is an egg incubator for 1-5 eggs
The miner is 'fire and forget' once you've got it running. It will start mining after power up without intervention. The configuration isn't hard either. That leaves the assembly; I'm not going to produce complete kits for different reasons, so in the end you will have to at least fix the heatsink (not sure if I will sell them with the pcb) and fan (ditto) to the pcb (and apply thermal compound), either using tie wraps (that is what I am using rn) or 3d printed or laser cut brackets, and get a suitable usb charger + usb-c cable (and optional usb trigger pcb so you can power the miner with 9V). You can find some more info on this here https://github.com/rapsacw/aSiNine_and8

[floridaman86]

I'm developing a series of standalone miners built around BM1387 & BM1397 asics and an ESP32-C3. I've been working on these for over 1 year now and I think I've got enough knowledge now to make a version that can be mass produced, the question I have now: is anyone interested in such a miner?
The configuration I'm thinking of has the following properties:
- Standalone, only a usb charger with 5V/3A needed and a wireless connection.
- Single BM1397 asic.
- Hash rate of 200GHs upto 250GHs (and more probably).
- Power consumption out of the wall 8-15W (depending on efficiency of the charger and hash rate).
- My own miner software (open source, in beta stage, fully working but lousy UI) based on Arduino libraries that allows manual on the fly voltage and frequency settings.
- totally not worth running on a non-solo pool, but a cheap lottery ticket where you enter the drawing for free every 10 minutes for as long as you live(*)..

I've designed my hardware around parts that are for sale on aliexpress, but for mass production I will have to redesign parts of it using components for sale at mouser.com , and I will need to find a company willing to produce them (a problem as the asics are not sold by any big electronics reseller), and also sell them. Currently I'm thinking of seeedstudio.com, but I haven't contacted them yet to see if they are both willing and capable (sourcing the bm1397's and soldering them on the backside of the pcb).
There is also a open source version with bm1387 asics (that I could also redesign to use mouser parts) that you can built yourself (advanced electronic soldering capabilities/tools required).
I have 6 prototypes running, live stats https://solo.ckpool.org/users/1KgwWwBh7qGtcWJ9ZRNTUbVCR1L2qYkzcy, 3 bm1387 versions (2 with 2 asics, one with 4 asics), and three single bm1397 versions (workernames containing 'test').
I started out designing the miners for personal use and therefor used parts from aliexpress but I'm so satisfied with them (they will run as long as the internet connection is up, and will reconnect in 99.9% of the cases when it is not, the 0.01% is caused by a quirk in the esp software) that *I think* others might be interested in them also.
But it will require another hardware redesign which is not needed for my personal use miners.
So, should I invest the time (and money) in this for you? Or is this a niche product? I have no idea what the retail price will be in the end, but the pcb hardware and assembly should not be much more than $50, add to that a margin the the sales & production, an included cooling solution (say $5 for the heatsink and another $2 for a fan, $x for 2 small 3D printed clips to mount everything) and that should be it.
Comment in this topic if interested, or if you think this is stupid, you won't hurt my feelings as I have already got what I set out to achieve.

(*) I'm not sure if any (solo) pool will support low hash rate miners in the future. Pool operators have to pay for their hardware and connection, and a low hash rate miner costs them as much as a complete mining farm. Maybe CK can answer that.

ps: new forum user with (unknown to me) restrictions, my old user name got lost in 2016)

edit:
I've redesigned the miner to use standard parts, but sadly i'll have to make another one as one of the buck converters from mouser.com is apparently a fake
Anyway, I did some stress testing to see what it can handle and got this https://github.com/rapsacw/aSiNine-ESP-miner/blob/main/ui.png

I think there is interest in low power miners, especially if they're quiet, but 200GH is way too low. You won't mine anything with such little power.
to gain any real interest, you will need to get the hash power in the range of 3-5 TH. And keep the noise below 50db.
If you can accomplish that, you can probably sell the miner in the range of $750-$1,000. and be competitive with Futurebit

If you could build a 220 watt machine that does 10th you would get buyers. You could also charge a premium.

absolutely, why is anyone even discussing anything with less than 1TH at this point. Its a waste time and energy. What could you possibly mine, maybe 10 sats a day? The popular USB miner out there that currently does something like 300GH is a complete ripoff. People need to realize that, and stop promoting it

But there are many home miners, like myself, who are open to the idea of a lower hash rate... 3, 5, 10TH machines. Especially if they are on the quieter side, and do not pull massive amounts of power.

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absolutely, why is anyone even discussing anything with less than 1TH at this point. Its a waste time and energy. What could you possibly mine, maybe 10 sats a day? The popular USB miner out there that currently does something like 300GH is a complete ripoff. People need to realize that, and stop promoting it

But there are many home miners, like myself, who are open to the idea of a lower hash rate... 3, 5, 10TH machines. Especially if they are on the quieter side, and do not pull massive amounts of power.

Simply because some people want a small ASIC that runs with almost no power consumption and no noise, as a lottery ticket for solo mining. Others are just interested in these ASICs as a hobby, or others use them to demystify mining without risking much.

No interest? Tell that to the guy who found a block with a Gekko Compac F not so long ago. Do you think people would bother to develop such ASICs and others to use them if there was no interest?

Just because you don't understand the point of something, doesn't mean there isn't one. Many people like to have a chance of finding a block (even if that chance is tiny) at the cost of just a few dozen watts.