Let's get rid of all regulations, what can possibly go wrong

[vv181]

Sometimes things are not popular enough that there is a lack of eye to watch regulations enforcement. The regulation might not be clearly stated but it is inherently essential for those who participate in some sectors aware of what consequences they might give to the customers.

OceanGate recent tragedy is truly ubiquitous. What enraging is all the signs from former employees and the CEO itself are absurd, they did not ensure the safety of their own product. It is ignorance at its finest. Specifically, the fact that the submarine uses secondhand material, and is not certificated to go below the intended deepness. Though, it does not mean regulation should be swayed away as a whole, there should be someone who watches the regulators.

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[teosanru]

If you have been reading the news lately, you would know the story about OceanGate submarine that failed and killed all people onboard. The cause of this tragic incident is that the creator of the submarine chose to ignore regulations. He believed that they are only in place to stifle innovation and that he knows better than the others and can't be wrong.

OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush said in 2021 he knew he'd 'broken some rules' by making the Titanic submersible out of carbon fiber and not pure metal: 'You're remembered for the rules you break'l

This should be a cautionary tale to people who dream about society without government and its regulations. Imagine if someone makes an "experimental and innovative" nuclear reactor that explodes and gives radiation sickness + cancer to hundreds of thousands. Or someone makes an "experimental and innovative" dam that collapses and floods houses. Invisible hand of the market won't be able to undo the damage or prevent it in the future from repeating again.

I think obviously some of the government regulations are very important in some aspects if you see. They are not made to stop you but obviously to safeguard you. Even in cryptos etc they are made for this purpose only, because we don't have the solution to the problems that might come many governments think an outright ban could help but it doesn't eventually when our technology will grow, governments might be able to find actual solutions to these issues and then allow Cryptos in a regulated environment.

[retreat]

-snip-

This should be a cautionary tale to people who dream about society without government and its regulations. Imagine if someone makes an "experimental and innovative" nuclear reactor that explodes and gives radiation sickness + cancer to hundreds of thousands. Or someone makes an "experimental and innovative" dam that collapses and floods houses. Invisible hand of the market won't be able to undo the damage or prevent it in the future from repeating again.

Sometimes regulation is necessary, but regulation that is too strict will also make people constrained. But compared to not having regulation, it is much better to have regulation, even if it seems like a chain of restraints. Because you can imagine how chaotic the world would be if everyone did what they wanted, without any regulations that restrained them.
The OceanGate case is one example of how an overly narcissistic and self-confident person who ignores regulations and sees himself as the right one meets his own end. Luckily he was with the group, so he was able to meet the Titanic passengers along with the other passengers.

[Synchronice]

If you have been reading the news lately, you would know the story about OceanGate submarine that failed and killed all people onboard. The cause of this tragic incident is that the creator of the submarine chose to ignore regulations. He believed that they are only in place to stifle innovation and that he knows better than the others and can't be wrong.

OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush said in 2021 he knew he'd 'broken some rules' by making the Titanic submersible out of carbon fiber and not pure metal: 'You're remembered for the rules you break'l

This should be a cautionary tale to people who dream about society without government and its regulations. Imagine if someone makes an "experimental and innovative" nuclear reactor that explodes and gives radiation sickness + cancer to hundreds of thousands. Or someone makes an "experimental and innovative" dam that collapses and floods houses. Invisible hand of the market won't be able to undo the damage or prevent it in the future from repeating again.

Since this thread is opened in Economy board, I assume the main idea behind this title is that bitcoin should be regulated, right? But bitcoin is finance and submarine is a different case. There should be regulations on absolutely everything that human physically uses, including airplanes, buses, metro, home/apartments, buildings and so on. Things like these should be very highly regulated, jobs where there is a chance that person may damage health, should be highly regulated but finances are different things. Finances are regulated in a way that they control what and how you spend, they charge you taxes and for bonus, they print money and make you pay with inflation. I don't want government to track me what I buy and when I buy. Isn't it interesting that governments don't care if you don't earn money but they will knock on your door if you generate money and won't pay taxes? Yes!

[dothebeats]

In the case of OceanGate, aside from deliberately ignoring safety precautions and regulations, the CEO also ignored the advice of the experts in the field and also skimped on routine maintenance. There are tons of things that contributed to the said disaster, and most of it started from him just winging it and believing in what he thinks is 'best' for them at that moment.

Also, he surrounded himself with yes men that contributed to this tragedy. There are so many things that could go wrong if there aren't any standards or regulations set into place by governing bodies. So even if we admit it or not, governments and their laws and regulations are still needed in order to keep chaos at bay.

Regulators will always come up with different allegations and arguments after a tragic incident. It is when people have lost their lives that these government agencies will tell the world how the firm or company broke regulatory rules. But they were around and were watching these firms engage in risky adventures without stopping them. These agencies will not deny that they are aware that OceanGate was risking the lives of people and making a profit from it. Government agencies are reactive and not proactive. These deaths would have been avoided if regulators had sealed the company and ensured they abide by the rules.

Our system is run by highly connected corrupt and greedy folks that act above the law because of their links to the seat of power. The loss of life is irreplaceable, but it becomes painful to the bereaved if it happened because of avoidable mistakes.

Well, Stockton Rush was warned beforehand by multiple experts in the field but he still insisted on what he wanted to do. There are tons of red flags in what he wanted to happen for this expedition, and yet those who paid and joined him in the dive didn't say anything. I think if I was a person with that kind of money, I would believe the experts more than what the merchant trying to sell me a product says about his plans. I get that OceanGate wanted to be innovative or quirky, but physics and nature don't care about these things - they follow their rules, and your little submersible and your company wanting to be innovative and quirky won't change that, not even one bit.

IMO, those rich people inside the submersible are partly to blame, too. Just because you can pay for the trip doesn't mean you should.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

I get your point, OP, and I'm not an anarchist by any means but I do think there are way too many laws and various regulations on the books (in the US at least) and that law enforcement has far too much power.  So do regulatory bodies, as evidenced by the hard time the SEC is giving crypto exchanges.  They won't give clear guidance and just seem to be handing out fines and wrist-slaps and whatever else as it suits them.

I'm for less government and more freedom, but not to the extent that there's absolutely no oversight.  That said, the regulations didn't prevent the submarine disaster.  You can't protect against assholes who get away with ignoring the reasonable laws that exist, and there are plenty of examples of that throughout history (especially if you're an asshole with a lot of money and/or influence).  Some things just never change.

And by the way, let the anarchists keep hoping for anarchy; I doubt the world is going back to that stage in any of our lifetimes.

Since this thread is opened in Economy board, I assume the main idea behind this title is that bitcoin should be regulated, right? But bitcoin is finance and submarine is a different case.

That was my first thought as well.  There are rules for safe design of buildings and vehicles and whatnot, and then there's the very fuzzy, ever-changing world of financial regulation.  The latter is much more murky and prone to abuse IMO.

[o48o]

This should be a cautionary tale to people who dream about society without government and its regulations. Imagine if someone makes an "experimental and innovative" nuclear reactor that explodes and gives radiation sickness + cancer to hundreds of thousands. Or someone makes an "experimental and innovative" dam that collapses and floods houses. Invisible hand of the market won't be able to undo the damage or prevent it in the future from repeating again.

I think most people are fine with regulations as long as it is reasonable. The problem is that the one who runs the system can't be trusted, which is hard to solve since you can't simply tell everyone to "try to participate in governance then".
-cut-

Thing is that most likely Rush thought that his way of doing things were reasonable as well. As most of us aren't deep sea experts with submarines and deeps sea like Rush wasn't. Most of us aren't experts in political science either. And countries have move moving parts than submarines.

And even when everything affects to everything and there are countless of studies about political science and how to keep careful balance, for some reason people who haven't read one book think that they know best what are reasonable regulations.

And since you already wrote that people running that sub were bunch of idiots, what do you think rest of the human kind is like, who think they know what's reasonable regulation?

[goaldigger]

I'm a bit surprised at the way the OP addresses the issue, although it can be said that the current law or regulation is fair, I also agree that sometimes it is a lack of humanity, not knowing. Have you seen any lawsuits of the same nature as mine where a murderer becomes a hero being praised for his actions killing evil people with depraved behavior. The authorities have not yet intervened, in fact there are many issues that people want to promote their own interests, fairness can be promoted, but looking directly at the truth, we have not been able to get justice. That way, the cost of living will take a form that is beyond our comprehension, but I would still like to reiterate the justice that exists.

The authorities are only focusing on what they think is important and with other issues they remain silent as if they don’t care at all. Justice in my country will take years because the court will have a final decision on this and most of the time it will take a decade or more, the worst is to be neglected with the fair judgement. If there’s a fair regulations and the government really do their job to protect everyone including the nature, I believe we can have a better society that makes a different.

[hatshepsut93]

Since this thread is opened in Economy board, I assume the main idea behind this title is that bitcoin should be regulated, right? But bitcoin is finance and submarine is a different case.

I have a feeling that on this forum there's a very common opinion that all regulations are bad, and if society gets rid of them and the government, everyone will get rich and the economy will be booming.

As for Bitcoin, it itself is impossible to regulate, and I don't think there has ever been any attempts to do so by pressuring devs, miners and full node operators. But Bitcoin ecosystem absolutely should be regulated, exchanges need to prove solvency; hyips, cloud mining and other scams need to be prosecuted; mining needs to be regulated to not cause disruptions to energy grid and to not contribute to environment pollution.

[BitDane]

Since this thread is opened in Economy board, I assume the main idea behind this title is that bitcoin should be regulated, right? But bitcoin is finance and submarine is a different case.

I have a feeling that on this forum there's a very common opinion that all regulations are bad, and if society gets rid of them and the government, everyone will get rich and the economy will be booming.

Many are just stereotyping what they read without really not knowing what they read.  I am not one of those who thinks regulation is bad.  Regulation is implemented to protect the interest of both the state and its people.  Just like the case presented by @OP.  They are the standard to follow in order keep people safe from whatever undesired result of neglect or substandard actions.

As for Bitcoin, it itself is impossible to regulate, and I don't think there has ever been any attempts to do so by pressuring devs, miners and full node operators. But Bitcoin ecosystem absolutely should be regulated, exchanges need to prove solvency; hyips, cloud mining and other scams need to be prosecuted; mining needs to be regulated to not cause disruptions to energy grid and to not contribute to environment pollution.

True!  Bitcoin as decentralized in nature is very hard to regulate but it is not impossible especially Bitcoin needs to go through centralized system in order for the people to use them in their daily needs.  I am also one of the believer that regulation is necessary to keep the Bitcoin community safe from exploitation and scams.

[serveria.com]

If you have been reading the news lately, you would know the story about OceanGate submarine that failed and killed all people onboard. The cause of this tragic incident is that the creator of the submarine chose to ignore regulations. He believed that they are only in place to stifle innovation and that he knows better than the others and can't be wrong.

OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush said in 2021 he knew he'd 'broken some rules' by making the Titanic submersible out of carbon fiber and not pure metal: 'You're remembered for the rules you break'l

This should be a cautionary tale to people who dream about society without government and its regulations. Imagine if someone makes an "experimental and innovative" nuclear reactor that explodes and gives radiation sickness + cancer to hundreds of thousands. Or someone makes an "experimental and innovative" dam that collapses and floods houses. Invisible hand of the market won't be able to undo the damage or prevent it in the future from repeating again.

Well, I partly agree. Breaking rules if you're risking people's lives is obviously not ok. If Stockton Rush would use his submersible himself that would be fine. Space rockets, planes, submarines all were risky inventions. Satoshi Nakamoto and Bitcoin also broke some rules but he didn't hurt anyone. Bitcoin is revolutionary, it also ignores some regulations, so what? Ban Bitcoin?

[GH2022]

If you have been reading the news lately, you would know the story about OceanGate submarine that failed and killed all people onboard. The cause of this tragic incident is that the creator of the submarine chose to ignore regulations. He believed that they are only in place to stifle innovation and that he knows better than the others and can't be wrong.

OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush said in 2021 he knew he'd 'broken some rules' by making the Titanic submersible out of carbon fiber and not pure metal: 'You're remembered for the rules you break'l

This should be a cautionary tale to people who dream about society without government and its regulations. Imagine if someone makes an "experimental and innovative" nuclear reactor that explodes and gives radiation sickness + cancer to hundreds of thousands. Or someone makes an "experimental and innovative" dam that collapses and floods houses. Invisible hand of the market won't be able to undo the damage or prevent it in the future from repeating again.

A few keywords come to mind:

BALANCE

There needs to be a balance between how heavily or lightly regulated things are - in the case of the Sub, money spoke and people were bought out.  The balance and common sense (which I'll mention next) simply wasn't there, sure they could do this crazy thing (and did) and lo and behold there are consequences when you do stupid things.

However, let's imagine that we have an angry and authoritarian leader who is opposed to change, new facts and new ideas...

Dr. Roger Bannister would have been in trouble for proving great leader wrong because 'no man can run a mile in under four minutes' was the accepted common belief in the early 1960s in the UK.  

The modern diesel and electric trains would have been banned, because 'change is scary... we'll stick with steam trains, just because.'

Bitcoin would have been banned because great leader cannot understand new thing, if great leader cannot understand it is wrong and banned.

COMMON SENSE

'How dare you not tell me to peepee on the electric fence... bzzzzzboom!'

Use your brain, if it's too good to be true or seems dumb then it is.

The flipside is that by not doing something, we can make a problem worse - during Lockdown, deafblind children in the UK suffered because they could not do the things that they normally did and struggled to adapt to the draconian laws (however well intended...)

'We must keep people safe because deadly virus'

'Locking down the world will hurt people with special issues though...'

'BLAST YOU, I'M A GOOD PERSON AND I AM IN CHARGE!'

'Can we compromise and can our feelings be made known>'

'NO, NAY, NEVER!'


Whilst safety is needed, too much and indeed too little of something is bad enough.

A little rhyme to help you remember:

Flashy Jack was quick to act and thought about it later
Whilst Dopey Pat just sat and sat - action, he did not favour.
Steady John said 'steady on, I'll think whilst I have time...
... but then I act, or it's a fact that I'll be in the slime!'

[davis196]

Are you really going to compare the "Titan" submarine incident with the crypto regulations? Are you serious?
I think that most of the cryptocurrency users aren't against the idea of the crypto industry being regulated. The problem is what kind of regulations the crypto industry really needs and are they effective at preventing the "average Joe" from getting scammed in projects like FTX.
We all agree that all the "high risk-high innovation" industries should be regulated, because such regulation would help protecting human lives.

[Jawhead999]

Are you serious? if you want to get rid of all regulations and centralization, you must become a super power man which you need to mastering everything.

If you're want to go other country, you must build your own plane and become a pilot. You have an another option, you must build your own ship and know how to handle it. If you're want to eat a cookie, you must become the farmer who's grow your own garden and produce anything that used to bake your own cookie.

After all, you're need to rely on someone because it's impossible you need to do everything by yourself.

[EarnOnVictor]

If you have been reading the news lately, you would know the story about OceanGate submarine that failed and killed all people onboard. The cause of this tragic incident is that the creator of the submarine chose to ignore regulations. He believed that they are only in place to stifle innovation and that he knows better than the others and can't be wrong.

OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush said in 2021 he knew he'd 'broken some rules' by making the Titanic submersible out of carbon fiber and not pure metal: 'You're remembered for the rules you break'l

This should be a cautionary tale to people who dream about society without government and its regulations. Imagine if someone makes an "experimental and innovative" nuclear reactor that explodes and gives radiation sickness + cancer to hundreds of thousands. Or someone makes an "experimental and innovative" dam that collapses and floods houses. Invisible hand of the market won't be able to undo the damage or prevent it in the future from repeating again.

Well, I partly agree. Breaking rules if you're risking people's lives is obviously not ok. If Stockton Rush would use his submersible himself that would be fine. Space rockets, planes, submarines all were risky inventions. Satoshi Nakamoto and Bitcoin also broke some rules but he didn't hurt anyone. Bitcoin is revolutionary, it also ignores some regulations, so what? Ban Bitcoin?

I like people talking without any sentiments, that's why I see your comparison as useless as anything. I wonder why you would be comparing Rush's risk with crypto to justify that it doesn't hurt anyone. Rush's own is obvious and took lives but have you thought about how the total unregulated crypto environment would hurt people and the economy? And what the effect could be over time?

I stand for crypto adoption and regulation, else, everything will go where we don't expect as the users are also the people you don't know their minds and motives.

[BenCodie]

This is an extremely skewed view. I believe that regulations should exist when it comes to human life and safety. Otherwise, it is absolutely true that it stifles innovation.

In the case of the internet, if regulation didn't exist, yes there would be anarchy...but who cares? Doesn't anarchy already exist even with regulations? Wouldn't people learn and become vigilant faster if the internet was uncensored and unregulated?

That's my view anyway. As for this submarine saga - it's ironic about the wealth of the individuals on the submarine and the wealth of those on the titanic. Coincidence? I think not.

[Wexnident]

~

Afaik there was also a member of the team (was a scientist iirc?) that was kicked out because he warned the company about the risks of the submarine they were trying to dumbly push. I'm fine with companies, organizations, or anyone really experimenting. It's the leading cause of improvements in literally everything. Just remember to not be dumb enough to ignore the risks involved and push it to public use without any forewarning.

This is an extremely skewed view. I believe that regulations should exist when it comes to human life and safety. Otherwise, it is absolutely true that it stifles innovation.

In the case of the internet, if regulation didn't exist, yes there would be anarchy...but who cares? Doesn't anarchy already exist even with regulations? Wouldn't people learn and become vigilant faster if the internet was uncensored and unregulated?

That's my view anyway. As for this submarine saga - it's ironic about the wealth of the individuals on the submarine and the wealth of those on the titanic. Coincidence? I think not.

To be fair, regulation exists on the internet, but it isn't pushed forcefully because it doesn't directly involve the life of someone. On this submarine though? That's something that holds human lives.

[kaseygriffin]

Every mistake has a price that is an inevitable rule in this life, but when it comes to the operation of the government of a country here, it will be difficult for me to fully understand the problem of operation and control.
There are legal rules that appear to make people aware of possible consequences of wrongdoing, but there are things that are abused and bypassed by those who understand the law. I think if the regulations are not agreed upon by the parties, it will always appear controversial in society, so the issue of change and like-mindedness will need attention.

[bayudndy]

I'm a bit surprised at the way the OP addresses the issue, although it can be said that the current law or regulation is fair, I also agree that sometimes it is a lack of humanity, not knowing. Have you seen any lawsuits of the same nature as mine where a murderer becomes a hero being praised for his actions killing evil people with depraved behavior. The authorities have not yet intervened, in fact there are many issues that people want to promote their own interests, fairness can be promoted, but looking directly at the truth, we have not been able to get justice. That way, the cost of living will take a form that is beyond our comprehension, but I would still like to reiterate the justice that exists.

The authorities are only focusing on what they think is important and with other issues they remain silent as if they don’t care at all. Justice in my country will take years because the court will have a final decision on this and most of the time it will take a decade or more, the worst is to be neglected with the fair judgement. If there’s a fair regulations and the government really do their job to protect everyone including the nature, I believe we can have a better society that makes a different.

But we also need to make it clear here that this is just one of the remaining bad cases, everything is fine, there is one thing that I find in this life quite funny when some people just expect someone to make some small mistake to assume that person is bad. However, that's okay, regulations have their own level and applicability, it may not be suitable for all situations but I think when that happens too much, people will find a way to fix it change to suit the criteria of common rights and obligations.

[kryptqnick]

I'm also not a proponent of a world of the minimum state that doesn't do much. I believe in regulations, as long as they actually focus on protecting the people and ensuring that the businesses are fair. Things that can lead to someone's death (like the submarine) should be regulated very strictly, and punishment for breaking these regulations should be significant. But Bitcoin is not like that, it doesn't pose any direct risk on its own. What should be regulated in the crypto area is centralized businesses (like crypto exchanges) to protect the customers. Instead, the regulations focus on imposing restrictions on the customers, and that's not right.