ledger rollback ledger live

[22bits]

So the ledger live is the beginning point that forces a firmware update when doing a transaction, if one does not want to update there are a couple of options,
1.)  Rollback and user earlier version of ledger live.
2.)  Use ledger with electrum
3.)  others

So in exploring #1 I found all previous versions of ledger live : https://www.ledger.com/ledger-live/lld-signatures

What I am wondering is if there is a way to know what is the proper version of ledger live to use with the current firmware on my ledger device?  Is there a way to figure this out?

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[Faisal2202]

I am not an expert in this situation but I think the obvious answer is to roll back to the previous update after which the new update came. Because that's was the last one on your wallet which means it was compatible with your wallet's firmware.
that
Or another way is to compare your wallet's firmware with the version of your wallets, which is recommended by the company while you are installing it is best practice to do but if other options are visible then compare your firmware version with the version you wanted to install and select the one which is compatible or was compatible before.

[o_e_l_e_o]

There will come a point where Ledger simply don't allow you to make transactions via Ledger Live until you update Ledger Live and your device's firmware to include the Ledger Recover code.

If I were a Ledger owner, I would be uninstalling Ledger Live entirely and only using my Ledger device via Electrum or Sparrow. I would use it as little as possible while I either waited on the arrival of the hardware wallet I had purchased to replace my Ledger, or preferably until I had gone through setting up an airgapped, encrypted cold storage computer, and then move all my coins to this new wallet.

[Charles-Tim]

So the ledger live is the beginning point that forces a firmware update when doing a transaction, if one does not want to update there are a couple of options,
1.)  Rollback and user earlier version of ledger live.
2.)  Use ledger with electrum
3.)  others

If you have the money to buy new hardware wallets it would be better to leave Ledger. Depsite it is a close source wallet, Ledger company did not disappointed me with their carelessness of buyers data and how careless they want to render their services to their customers. I am still expecting more from the company.

What I am wondering is if there is a way to know what is the proper version of ledger live to use with the current firmware on my ledger device?  Is there a way to figure this out?

According to their website: https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/360020773319-What-s-new-in-Ledger-Live-?docs=true

Ledger Live 2.62.2 - Released on June 28, 2023

[22bits]

I am not an expert in this situation but I think the obvious answer is to roll back to the previous update

The problem is I have not used the actual device for quite some time and they have updates very often.  So I could pick a date like Jan 1, 2023 which is about 10 updates ago and try it.  It might also tell me to update.  If I try to go back one by one it would just take a long time.  Also I believe that if I go back too far that may also be a problem in that I have a newer firmware than the ledger live.  Tending towards trying it with electrum and seeing how that goes.


According to their website: https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/360020773319-What-s-new-in-Ledger-Live-?docs=true

Ledger Live 2.62.2 - Released on June 28, 2023
[/quote]  
This tells you the what they changed in the ledger live.  My meaning was could I look at the actual device (now I notice I can see a version of the firmware, like 2.0.x on the device itself - version of firmware of course doesn't match Ledger live version). So what I would like to know is if there is a way to tell the actual version of ledger live to use with the specific firmware on the device itself.  

[Pmalek]

First of all, which Ledger hardware wallet do you have?

A) Nano S
B) Nano S Plus
C) Nano X

I am asking because the code that introduces Ledger Recover was only released for the Nano X.
The word is that the old Nano S won't ever support it, and the Nano S Plus will at one point in the future.

If you haven't upgraded your Nano X firmware, don't do it and leave it as it is. The version of Ledger Live doesn't matter. The version of your installed crypto apps are also of secondary priority when we are discussing the Ledger Recover code. I see no problems in keeping your crypto apps and Ledger Live updated. If it's a trust issue, why keep using your Ledger hardware wallet in the first place? Switch to something else and abandon it.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

There will come a point where Ledger simply don't allow you to make transactions via Ledger Live until you update Ledger Live and your device's firmware to include the Ledger Recover code.

I could have sworn they were already past that point, because I've been following Ledger's subreddit and there have been a lot of complaints about not being able to send certain coins (and I'm not talking about bitcoin here) without having updated the firmware to whatever the latest version is.  And a lot of people have been making the same argument you made above, that Ledger will just become unusable if the firmware isn't updated.

If I were a Ledger owner, I would be uninstalling Ledger Live entirely and only using my Ledger device via Electrum or Sparrow.

Lol.  I wouldn't even be using the Ledger, period.  Electrum and Sparrow work just fine on their own AFAIK, and it just isn't worth the mental hassle owning a device that's made by a company recently exposed to be sketchy as hell. 

I'm just waiting for the announcement that some government agency has subpoenaed Ledger for its users' data and that Ledger gave it up like a $5 crack whore.  Or some other disaster scenario.  Either way, I think it's a-comin'.

[RickDeckard]

I could have sworn they were already past that point, because I've been following Ledger's subreddit and there have been a lot of complaints about not being able to send certain coins (and I'm not talking about bitcoin here) without having updated the firmware to whatever the latest version is.  And a lot of people have been making the same argument you made above, that Ledger will just become unusable if the firmware isn't updated.

Such reports have already started to appear at the end of May per my post in the discussion regarding this feature[1]:

~
Note: Eventually you'll have to update your device if you want to use the Ethereum app that Ledger provides[4][5]. I assume that this applies to most apps provided by them.
[4]https://nitter.it/play_Bloomverse/status/1660880957266853889
[5]https://nitter.it/2Cold_XRPL/status/1659757684617515009

Just like we've discussed recently about Ledger[2], long term users will have two roads ahead of them (if they are still walking that road) - Update their devices to use the apps within or abandon Ledger all together. I assume that those who wanted to abandon the company already did in the days following the feature announcement so I suppose that the remaining users will just accept the firmware eventually (I would like very much to be wrong on this assumption).
[1]https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5452900.msg62329609#msg62329609
[2]https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5456361.msg62494230#msg62494230

[o_e_l_e_o]

The word is that the old Nano S won't ever support it

And you trust Ledger when they say that? I'm sure they could extract your seed phrase from a Nano S if they wanted to - they are probably just not officially supporting it on Nano S to force people to upgrade and make themselves more profit.

I wouldn't even be using the Ledger, period.  Electrum and Sparrow work just fine on their own AFAIK, and it just isn't worth the mental hassle owning a device that's made by a company recently exposed to be sketchy as hell.

As I said - I would only use a Ledger device with Electrum or Sparrow while waiting for a replacement such as a Passport to arrive or while learning how to set up and use my own airgapped device. A stopgap measure, not a long term solution.

[Yamane_Keto]

Such reports have already started to appear at the end of May per my post in the discussion regarding this feature[1]:

The problem is that it is difficult to find software to manage altcoins just like with bitcoin where you have Sparrow and Electrum.
Therefore, if the new service policy is not compatible with you, it is better to buy a new HW because sooner or later you will need to update firmware, and using an old Firmware is not wise advice. I think NEW wallet would be a good choice for Ethereum.
Or stop using altcoins.

[Pmalek]

And you trust Ledger when they say that?

The trust is definitely at a minimum low, and they only have themselves to blame for that.
The memory limitations of the old Nano S are known, so it's possible that whatever software they are thinking of developing wouldn't work on it.

There are so many questions that it's sometimes not worth thinking about.
If they could extract our keys without our knowledge, why would they tell us that they are planning to do it with a future upgrade?
The firmware is closed-source and no one would know.

If they already did it in the past, why not keep quiet about it instead of going public and causing this unrest in their community?
It was obvious from day one that it wouldn't work in their favor. If they already have all keys from an extraction in the past, the more logical step would be to be silent about it. Obviously, no one noticed it or talked about it until they released their plans for Ledger Recover. 

[o_e_l_e_o]

If they could extract our keys without our knowledge, why would they tell us that they are planning to do it with a future upgrade?

Because now they can charge you $10 a month for the privilege of having your coins made vulnerable to seizure or theft from third parties!

[22bits]

Thanks for all the responses.  I would like to note that I did find additional information on the firmware release notes pages:
https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/360014980580-Ledger-Nano-X-firmware-release-notes
https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/360010446000-Ledger-Nano-S-firmware-release-notes

This gives a date as to the specific firmware version on the device, so that can be paired with the release of the ledger live previous version from here:
https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/360020773319-What-s-new-in-Ledger-Live-

Thus one can determine the correct older version of ledger live to go with whatever firmware version is on their device. 

[22bits]

Just an update, I did try to send transaction with un-updated ledger nano s using Electrum from ubuntu, and I got it to work once and then it would not work again.   Here was a useful guide if you want to try it https://electrum.readthedocs.io/en/latest/hardware-linux.html#  I then downloaded and accessed the correct older appimage ledger live that was the one newer than the release date associated with the firmware on my ledger nano s.  Using this appimage I was able to transfer successfully (without being forced to upgrade firmware).  

[am developing the view on all key storage methods that unless doing something addressed in a release better to not upgrade firmware, release version etc]

[joniboini]

Using this appimage I was able to transfer successfully (without being forced to upgrade firmware).  

I'm not sure if I get what you're trying to say with this post, but as far as I'm aware Electrum never asks you to upgrade your firmware when you use your Ledger. Updating your udev rules is probably the step most people missed, but after that, everything should run smoothly. If for some reason you failed to make transactions due to your firmware being too old, you can check the log and see what is the cause and report it to the GitHub page. It would be better if you can provide more details on how the "work and then would not work again" process happened. At the end of the day though this doesn't really mean you are safe from the risk of Ledger forcing you to update. Especially if you want to store other coins that needs installation from the Ledger Live app. CMIIW.

[Yamane_Keto]

 I then downloaded and accessed the correct older appimage ledger live that was the one newer than the release date associated with the firmware on my ledger nano s.  Using this appimage I was able to transfer successfully (without being forced to upgrade firmware).  

By using the Electrum wallet, you do not need to update the firmware, as your private keys can be managed from that wallet, but the problem is with sending altcoins. Electrum is a Bitcoin only wallet and you need to use another software for altcoins.
At some point, you will find that you have to update the firmware to send a currency or for critical bug, and using old firmware may not be a smart move.

Whenever you start to doubt your hardware wallet, do not panic and start a careful search for alternatives. You can ask here after searching.

[dkbit98]

The problem is that it is difficult to find software to manage altcoins just like with bitcoin where you have Sparrow and Electrum.

There is one option for smartphone devices called Unstoppable wallet, it works very good for bitcoin and altcoins.
For desktop AtomicDEX is not a bad option that can be used both as wallet and as exchange for doing atomic swaps with other coins.
It is not hard to stop using ledger, and there are plenty of good open source device alternatives available.

I then downloaded and accessed the correct older appimage ledger live that was the one newer than the release date associated with the firmware on my ledger nano s.  Using this appimage I was able to transfer successfully (without being forced to upgrade firmware).  

That works for now but nobody knows whats going to happen in future, and there is a good chance ledger will force everyone to update at some point, or device will be unusable.

[RickDeckard]

I then downloaded and accessed the correct older appimage ledger live that was the one newer than the release date associated with the firmware on my ledger nano s.  Using this appimage I was able to transfer successfully (without being forced to upgrade firmware).  

That works for now but nobody knows whats going to happen in future, and there is a good chance ledger will force everyone to update at some point, or device will be unusable.

At this point in time, making such assumption - that Ledger won't force to update in a later time - is similar to walk in thin ice. As you could see @22bits, Ledger doesn't have any problem in breaking their own fundamentals and won't stop at nothing in trying to defend their stance even thought it goes against their stance. Don't assume that such company won't adopt a more strict posture in the future regarding forcing their updates on their users.

[Yamane_Keto]

At this point in time, making such assumption - that Ledger won't force to update in a later time - is similar to walk in thin ice. As you could see @22bits, Ledger doesn't have any problem in breaking their own fundamentals and won't stop at nothing in trying to defend their stance even thought it goes against their stance. Don't assume that such company won't adopt a more strict posture in the future regarding forcing their updates on their users.

This is a one-way street, there is no going back, they have already lost the trust of many buyers and saying they will stop the Ledger Recovery service will not solve the problem or restore trust. Therefore, they will continue in this direction, and part of the developer team may launch a similar HW if they do not achieve success.

[FatFork]

At this point in time, making such assumption - that Ledger won't force to update in a later time - is similar to walk in thin ice. As you could see @22bits, Ledger doesn't have any problem in breaking their own fundamentals and won't stop at nothing in trying to defend their stance even thought it goes against their stance. Don't assume that such company won't adopt a more strict posture in the future regarding forcing their updates on their users.

This is a one-way street, there is no going back, they have already lost the trust of many buyers and saying they will stop the Ledger Recovery service will not solve the problem or restore trust. Therefore, they will continue in this direction, and part of the developer team may launch a similar HW if they do not achieve success.

Absolutely right. They chose not to fully scrub the Ledger Recovery service from their timeline, which, in my opinion, would have been the appropriate action to partially repair the damage it caused. Postponing it to a later date feels like a temporary fix to mitigate the negative publicity, rather than a sincere effort to rectify the situation.