"Not your keys, Not your coins" is not enough

[paid2]

« Not your Keys, Not your Coins ». « Don’t keep your Bitcoin on exchanges »

These advices are excellent, and no rational person with a genuine interest for Bitcoin should ignore them. There's no need to explain why, when you consider the number of scandals, scams, exit scams and accounts frozen / seized by the different CEX; because, let's not forget, CEXs work hand in hand with governments.
All the people advising this are therefore informed that CEXs are not reliable, do not work in our personal interest, and rightly so.

However, every time I read this on the internet, people stop at the Bitcoin storage step. That's not enough. There's another important step: exchanging Bitcoin.

So why not just advise and tell people to stop using CEX entirely? Bitcoin is by nature decentralized, why make it centralized? Why should a CEX that doesn't deserve to store our financial funds, our cryptos, deserve to be left with our banking and personal information?
Is it really that important to take the risk of having your funds frozen, losing your personal data, and enriching these useless people? Who wants to contribute to CZ's wealth, or encourage Coinbase in their disgusting practices?

Some will reply that CEX users choose "convenience ". Even that's not true! How is passing your KYC to Binance and using their UI easier than installing/using the Peachbitcoin (for example) app? It’s not! The only reason CEXs are in this position is because they benefit from substantial advertising resources.

We have effecient, fast, simple, user-friendly and totally P2P solutions at our disposal. For example :

-Bisq, a great P2P exchange, focused on privacy
-PeachBitcoin, their motto is #KYCfree
-Robosats, simple and efficient for those using Lightning network
-Majestic Bank, where you can swap BTC and XMR in a privacy-friendly way
-LocalMonero, another P2P exchange platform ; privacy focused

There are plenty of others, which you can easily find on kycnot.me

So why not advise people to use these services, in addition to advising them to use a non-custodial wallet?
Why shouldn't we be as enthusiastic about advising people not to use and register on CEX as we are about not storing their BTC there?

Not your keys, not your coins. No CEX at all.


P.S. : In this topic I'm not interested in altcoins and launchpad / launchpool type products, I'm only talking about Bitcoin exchange and storage. Personally, I don't think any launchpad justify a KYC procedure, but it's up to each individual to determine his or her priorities.


For those who want to read more on this subject, I highly recommend this topic from GazetaBitcoin

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[dzungmobile]

Not your keys, not your coins. No CEX at all.

It is more easily you don't trade and only invest. You can choose non KYC exchanges to buy Bitcoin and some altcoins, then hold them in your wallets.

The most challenging problem for many people is: they are not investors, but they are traders. They trade a lot, with many coins and tokens so they end up to use centralized exchanges. It is a biggest issue to maintain non KYC practice. They only can achieve non KYC if they are not trading many altcoins to get rich.

I read your note.

You should add this topic Reminder: Do not store your coins in online accounts.

[NotATether]

CEX basically means Centralized exchange. So any service for exchanging cryptos that goes through a single point of failure such a website is technically also centralized. Including every website you have listed except for Bisq (that's how Bettercallraul were able to exit scam everyone).

I think you should be going after custodial CEX (that is, using your CEX as a wallet). Because if I make an exchange service without trading features, that only allows you to send crypto to the service which then goes to the bank or wherever the exit is, then there is no liquidity that can be trashcanned for the service to go bust.

Of course, the risk of scams remain as Bettercallraul have already demonstrated - I could simply design a service that collects the deposits without sending it to where it's supposed to go. But that risk is omnipresent for every website you use that accepts payments of some form.

[Oshosondy]

If you want privacy and anonymity, you can use decentralized exchange like Bisq.

But if you are a trader, you may have no option than to use central exchanges. We traders can only prefer to use no-KYC centralized exchange but this is shrinking as more centralized exchanges that are no-KYC continue to start to mandate KYC. We do not have that privacy, but we should not leave our coins on exchanges, that is very important. All coins should be stored on noncustodial wallet.

There are plenty of others, which you can easily find on kycnot.me (https://kycnot.me/)

kycnot.me list Kucoin, but with low trust score of 4 because it is a centralized exchange. It is the first no-KYC exchange that we recognized, but no more because they will start mandating KYC starting from July 15th, which is just not more than two weeks from now.

If you say no CEX at all, that is not possible, traders rely on CEX to trade. If you want privacy, do not scalp and day trade but focus only on buying and selling bitcoin using decentralized exchanges like Bisq or the use of this forum.

[dzungmobile]

I think you should be going after custodial CEX (that is, using your CEX as a wallet). Because if I make an exchange service without trading features, that only allows you to send crypto to the service which then goes to the bank or wherever the exit is, then there is no liquidity that can be trashcanned for the service to go bust.

Some centralized exchanges create their Decentralized exchanges. Do people trust that those centralized-exchange-owned decentralized exchanges are actually decentralized and don't have back doors, keep logs like Chip Mixer?

Personally I don't use such DEX. If I care about privacy, I use a completely DEX, non KYC, anonymous team.

Like you can trade with higher trading volume on a CEX and why do you have to use their DEX with many questions about back doors and during trading, you will have worse trading volume.

[ABCbits]

One of biggest problem with DEX/P2P is lack of local currency. If you don't use USD or EUR, the option would be severally limited and sometimes with unfavorable exchange rate.

[bitmover]

So why not just advise and tell people to stop using CEX entirely? Bitcoin is by nature decentralized, why make it centralized? Why should a CEX that doesn't deserve to store our financial funds, our cryptos, deserve to be left with our banking and personal information?

Although this is a beautiful speech and theory, it lacks practical use.

How can you sell/buy your bitcoin to/from usd or any other local currency  without a cex?

You will basically depend on p2p, which lacks security and is based on trust. Where is the trustless here?

One of biggest problem with DEX/P2P is lack of local currency. If you don't use USD or EUR, the option would be severally limited and sometimes with unfavorable exchange rate.

Additionally,  how would you feel safer to sell 1 btc or more? In binance/coinbase or a p2p plataform.?
Binance will not exit scam you for  1 btc... but a p2p guy might.

[EarnOnVictor]

So why not just advise and tell people to stop using CEX entirely? Bitcoin is by nature decentralized, why

Your concern is a good one and I had thought of it many times, it's the same answer that keeps ringing in my head.

You are judging by the relevance of Bitcoin today, but neglecting the impact of CEX in helping it to have a deeper root. CEX builds businesses and eases around Bitcoin. And I would continue to say that it wouldn't have achieved this popularity and adoption so fast without CEX. CEX is the one that builds the trust of people more on Bitcoin due to the ease of accessibility of their coins and the ability to use them fast and interchangeably within the system. It offers the added advantages that DEX can't offer, which include higher liquidity, zero exchange fee and much more.

DEX would have done it if it has the power. Aside from keeping Bitcoin private and preserving ownership, CEX offer more benefits that people will turn a deaf hear to what you have to say about DEX.

[rat03gopoh]

Nobody should limit other people's choices because they have various interests, professions, backgrounds or whatever. The important thing is to keep telling them that every decision has its own consequence.
Bitcoin with its unique characteristics may not help in all aspects, on the other hand CEX has advantages at some points even in the judgment of someone with a typical skeptic of anything regulated. Some gangs will even say, "fuck privacy, I know what I'm doing more than you think".

[stompix]

However, every time I read this on the internet, people stop at the Bitcoin storage step. That's not enough. There's another important step: exchanging Bitcoin.
So why not just advise and tell people to stop using CEX entirely? Bitcoin is by nature decentralized, why make it centralized?

Because most think like this
- you need to find a trader that matches your offer, which is not so easy
- it's more costly as with a CEX they survive on the trade fees, with a P2P the guy that is always there to handle your exchange is doing this for money also, so the rates will be lower, and also you're going to pay the transfer fees

- are you uncomfortable with CEX knowing your name and face? Then are you happy with a total stranger on the internet knowing your full name and bank account when you do a so-called P2P exchange?
- with a CEX you always think you have support, you send some coins, you exchange them, and that's it, there is no third party with which you have to dispute sanctions, there is no fear of somebody doing a chargeback, there is no fear that you might have just bought coins from somebody who is going to be raided tomorrow and he has your contact as last person called in his list

Some will reply that CEX users choose "convenience ". Even that's not true! How is passing your KYC to Binance and using their UI easier than installing/using the Peachbitcoin (for example) app? It’s not! The only reason CEXs are in this position is because they benefit from substantial advertising resources.

I have to install an app, meh! Is it open source? Nope!
I'm giving my name and my bank details for a SEPA transfer, I am!
So, what's the difference?

Don't get me wrong, I completely hate CEX, I hate the charade that is called bitcoin cards with a visa logo, and I hate Binance and CZ probably the most on this entire forum, but let's not ignore facts, CEX are more convenient, that's why they are used because I don't have to contact some stranger, I don't have to log in my bank accounts and make a payment to exactly Quassam Bon Loden of exactly 1446.6 Euros to this account AD1400080001001234567890 and not one wrong letter and number.

Let's not even go into daily trading as that's impossible in P2P.

[Helena Yu]

Peach Bitcoin ask their users to install their software in order to use their service, I don't feel safe and trust them. If their service is a web based, I would explore their site and compare the fee with the other sites.

One of biggest problem with DEX/P2P is lack of local currency. If you don't use USD or EUR, the option would be severally limited and sometimes with unfavorable exchange rate.

What do you think the solution for those people who want to use DEX/P2P but their country aren't accept USD or EUR? is there such digital bank that accept every currency and the fees is worth to use?

[Zaguru12]

If you say no CEX at all, that is not possible, traders rely on CEX to trade. If you want privacy, do not scalp and day trade but focus only on buying and selling bitcoin using decentralized exchanges like Bisq or the use of this forum.

Not only traders but even investors who are from countries where adoption of bitcoin and cryptocurrency at large isn’t big and their currencies are hardly available on these decentralized exchanges. Converting them to the available ones would still require you to swap them to your currency. My only advice when dealing with these exchanges I.e centralized one’s is that do not treat them as wallet but rather as a marketplace where you buy and take off your funds.

As for traders use two or more of them so that when one eats the dust you down you have another to turn, considering you never leave off large amounts on any of them.

Additionally,  how would you feel safer to sell 1 btc or more? In binance/coinbase or a p2p plataform.?
Binance will not exit scam you for  1 btc... but a p2p guy might.

And I think if one gets scammed on this P2P while using centralized exchanges they do try to return one’s fund although little amount hardly gets the exchange attention and but something like 1btc sure does although it also takes time. The P2P scammer are easily gotten by the KYC they submitted. Sadly this is the advantage of it

[Z-tight]

You will basically depend on p2p, which lacks security and is based on trust. Where is the trustless here?

Bisq as a p2p platform is trustless and very secure, the trading funds and security deposits are locked up in a multi-sig wallet, and the wallet key holders is only the trading parties involved, this is perfectly trustless and secure in my honest opinion.

I agree that Centralized exchanges are more convenient and have better liquidity, but true p2p platforms like Bisq are trustless, more secure and perfect for privacy. Needless to say that there are a lot of fake decentralized exchanges that are indeed centralized and not secure, and they should be totally avoided and not mistaken for true p2p platforms.

[paid2]

One of biggest problem with DEX/P2P is lack of local currency. If you don't use USD or EUR, the option would be severally limited and sometimes with unfavorable exchange rate.

Yes, but that's the kind of message I'm trying to get across too, I think that if more people used P2P / DEX services, the supply would automatically be greater, and that would solve the currencies' problem.

Personally, I never buy BTC (my BTC comes from mining + signature campaigns and my salaries paid directly in BTC), but I do sell some dusts on a regular basis. I regularly receive offers for currencies other than USD or EUR, which I accept. Depending on the country and the bank, conversion fees below certain amounts are not a problem (at least for me). I give preference to the less common fiat currencies when I sell, precisely because the point you raise is true, some users have difficulty using their local FIAT in P2P.

You are judging by the relevance of Bitcoin today, but neglecting the impact of CEX in helping it to have a deeper root. CEX builds businesses and eases around Bitcoin. And I would continue to say that it wouldn't have achieved this popularity and adoption so fast without CEX. CEX is the one that builds the trust of people more on Bitcoin due to the ease of accessibility of their coins and the ability to use them fast and interchangeably within the system. It offers the added advantages that DEX can't offer, which include higher liquidity, zero exchange fee and much more.

I must confess that I don't look too closely at the value of BTC in FIAT. I sell some BTC to pay for certain things, and like everyone else, I'm not against the idea of BTC having a high fiat value. But I would have said the same thing with BTC at 3,000 usd, which is basically the same to me. I'm not denying that CEX has helped push up BTC's popularity and therefore its price. However, I don't deny either that they are contributing to denature BTC from its original purpose.

It is more easily you don't trade and only invest.

Fair enough.  I tend to forget that people use BTC for trading, it's not my personal conception of its use but you make a very good point.

How can you sell/buy your bitcoin to/from usd or any other local currency  without a cex?

Bitcoin ATMs are a good solution for example. Some own excessive high fees, some not, it depends of your geographical situation of course.

You will basically depend on p2p, which lacks security and is based on trust. Where is the trustless here?

Bisq is fine regarding this concern IMO. Peachbitcoin and the system of escrow too, but you have to trust them indeed.

Peach Bitcoin ask their users to install their software in order to use their service, I don't feel safe and trust them. If their service is a web based, I would explore their site and compare the fee with the other sites.

Fair enough. I have contacted them myself on the forum to ask if they are planning to stay on their « mobile app only » policy only or not, the lack of website UI is a problem for me too (but still less than giving my KYC to Coinbase or others bandits).

[buwaytress]

Agree in principal, but I actually might advise the regular user, if choosing to liquidate, to go for a CEX -- depending on where they're from and which CEX we're talking about. US or UK? Go for Coinbase, for example, and benefit from some state protections if things go wrong with the exchange.

And most regular people might also need to account for tax and insurance on their post-crypto wealth. A CEX might make that life easier.

It's hard enough to get people to safeguard their coins with sole custody. Getting them to then use P2P with low liquidity and multiple steps for errors without protection is a next step farther down the line.

As a lot of users already mention, we're trying to understand that people want ease and assurance. Bisq, etc. tend to scare people away (if suggested too soon).

[Aanuoluwatofunmi]

If you're interested in choosing an exchange for use then learn to know and understand the difference between a centralized exchange and a decentralized exchange, understand the reason why you should use one and avoid any, if you're still avoiding banks and yet still uses a centralized exchange makes nothing different, you must know how to have your bitcoin within your control and how you could maintain a security measure with handling your keys in a safety manners, not your keys not your coins.

[letteredhub]

CEX portray to be useful mainly for trading purpose which is a feature deficient of DEX. Another pretty reason why people still go on using CEX despite the stories surrounding it is in the area of local currency p2p exchange almost all the DEX op made example of are basically on USD and Euro so many traders for the sake of the local currency p2p  system made available by these Cex like binance it's just so impossible to avoid making use of them.

There's a saying in our local parlance," that you can't throw away the bad water with the baby". A remedy  to prevent careless losses of our coins is to making sure not to leave our coins under their custody after doing business or trading, do well to send your coins to your non-custodial wallet or to any Dex you are using. Only make use of Cex when you have the need to.

[southerngentuk]

Looking back, the second-largest cryptocurrency exchange in the world Obviously, the exchange has too much power; they control almost everything. The price is soaring, but the money in your wallet is really still on the exchange. The exchange became like a big crowdfunding guy, making his own sales; you put your money in. After you have put your money in, will the exchange keep the necessary amount for you to withdraw?

So the question is, Who is monitoring? Brothers who borrow money at the bank certainly understand that this is extremely fragile. Why? The bank is supervised by the state bank, which regulates the amount of money that must be kept at the bank. If you go to mobilize 10, you can only lend out 8. The amount of money withheld must absolutely comply with the amount prescribed by the state bank. The total loan amount is also regulated (in the world called room); when the room runs out, the money in the bank must also be left alone, not just 10 he himself went to lend 15.

So with cryptocurrencies, who is in control? Public and privates, if the exchange is known, it's okay, there is no organization or government to control that amount of money.

[BlackHatCoiner]

What do you think the solution for those people who want to use DEX/P2P but their country aren't accept USD or EUR? is there such digital bank that accept every currency and the fees is worth to use?

Exchange peer-to-peer BTC <-> Revolut USD/EUR, and convert the fiat to your national currency. It must support literally every national currency. They say they don't charge anything for the conversion.

I agree that Centralized exchanges are more convenient and have better liquidity

We're going to agree on liquidity, but Bisq is much more convenient to use than, say, Binance. It's much easier to have Bisq installed, running, and having a trade completed, in comparison with Binance, in which you'll have to submit a ton of stuff, solve a bunch of captchas, verify your email address / phone number etc., and wait for an undefined time to have your account approved.

[thecodebear]

Well, OP, for trading only CEX makes sense. DEX makes no sense for regular trading.

And the Bitcoin DEXes don't have a lot of volume and so charge well over the current price, so their is a fee issue with them. Also you can only buy in certain amounts - the amounts that people are selling on the DEX. Over time hopefully Bitcoin DEXes will get much higher volume and so they will get close to the exchange rate of Bitcoin and will have lots of different amounts to buy and sell which will make them useful for more people.



But yeah I agree with your general idea, that DEXes are better because we can keep our bitcoin anonymous. It's a bit of a chicken and egg probably currently, because they need much more volume to be more useful but more people won't use them until they many more users to provide that volume.


Bisq for example only does about 1200 trades per week, doing about 40 - 100 bitcoin in volume per week. That's nothing. And the prices range thousands of dollars away from the actual price of Bitcoin, so that to buy more than a couple tenths of a bitcoin you need to $1000 or more above the current price.