"Not your keys, Not your coins" is not enough

[Z-tight]

Binance, for instance, abides by international regulatory norms and has included innovative security features like multi-signature wallets.

How can you set up a multi-sig wallet in Binance when you do not even control your keys nor have any seed phrase to your coins, there's no multi-sig set up in Binance.

Self-custodial wallets need a level of technical proficiency that is beyond the reach of certain users. Just picture giving your secret keys to an untrained individual. It's like handing someone a puzzle box with instructions to keep all the parts together. A catastrophe is just waiting to occur.

There is nothing difficult in setting up a self custody wallet like Electrum for example, and backing up your seed phrase in a secure location, it is even easier than registering on Binance, sending them your picture and everything about you and then waiting to see if it will be approved or not.

Self-custodial wallets also lack a trading platform, which is something an exchange provides. In order to participate in the buy-low, sell-high game, traders need these venues. While I can certainly see your worries, I find your outspoken rejection of centralised trades to be a little bit excessive. Like a funny host at a party, they play an important part in the ecology.

Self custody wallets is for holding funds and not for trading. Trading should take place in exchanges, either centralized or decentralized exchanges, for privacy, security and trustless trading, you should use decentralized exchanges, but whichever one is chosen, the funds should be sent into a self custody wallet after the trade.

[1714756086]

1714756086

[mendace]

There is one problem with this quote. This quote assumes that everybody that uses bitcoin understands its underlying tech. In fact, some people don't care about it at all. Some people just use crypto as a way to get rich quick. For them, it doesn't matter what they are trading. BTC, ETH, LTC, XMR, DOGE, SHIB... These are all the same for these people. For them BTC is just another casino token. We can't expect them to think that much even though it is in their interest to think about these stuff. Some people will fail anyway.

You said "Not your keys, Not your coins" is not enough... and I say, "Not your keys, Not your coins" is more than enough. (for these people anyway)

That's right, I agree with a lot of what you wrote;  people trade and they don't know what they are doing, they don't have a clue what bitcoin or ethereum or monero is.  They don't know the underlying technology or the differences, they don't know why Bitcoin does this and why it does it better than others, they don't know how to keep it in their own private keys, in fact they don't know they really know that it can be moved to a safe place, because they been told to use an exchange and maybe they registered through a referral from a trusted friend.  There is still a long way to go.

That proves that not all traders are ready and good enough. Some are just here for trading alone, without  even thinking about the security and safety of their coins. As long as they can trade and gain profits, that what’s only matter to them. But if they have been in the shoes of those people who have save their coins in FTX, perhaps it will serve as an eye opener for them not to trust and place their coins in a centralized exchange for an indefinite period of time.

I think that without education these people will never learn their lesson, because maybe they don't know that custodial wallets exist and have entered an exchange not really knowing how cryptocurrencies work but thinking they are trading like on the stock exchange.  That's what education is actually missing.

[Synchronice]

@iwantmyhomepaidwithbtc2
I think you misunderstand some things about Bitcoin. The whole idea of Bitcoin is that it gives you control on your funds but only in terms of storing them. There is no one capable to seize your Bitcoins, to steal your bitcoins, to rob your bitcoins and to cancel your transactions. This is the privilege that you gain by acquiring and storing Bitcoins.
Thief can steal your cash and your gold, Bitcoins? Nah, if you are smart and know how to store them. If you don't pay the bills, banks can seize your funds and freeze your accounts but your Bitcoins? Nah.

If you were the lucky one that got thousands of bitcoins in 2010s, then congrats, you are a whale and probably spend every day in Ibiza and don't have to worry about p2p when you are an average guy, with the hope to one day become rich by Bitcoin, then you will struggle if you use decentralized exchanges. For example, on Binance, you can quickly deposit/withdraw Bitcoin, convert in different currencies, withdraw those different currencies, buy/sell at any moment, use leverage, do this, do that. Now, think about it, there is a reason CEXs are popular and believe me, if someone is interested in privacy so much, that person will definitely hear about DEX before he or she makes any crypto financial decision.

Sorry but sometimes I really wonder, do some people here go outside to buy a thing or have fun with friends? What about cameras that are in every corner? How do you manage to move or buy a thing without revealing your privacy? It's 21th century, things change. It's very sad but don't be so confident that you manage to keep your anonymity well-hidden from everyone.

Also, one thing that worth to mention is that, the more you try to remain anonymous, the more suspicious you look for governments. When you do p2p exchanges and deposits come to you from Nigeria, UK, Somalia, UAE, Pakistan, Vietnam, the USA and every time there are new senders that you don't know, it really makes you to look suspicious but when deposits come from registered CEX, you don't look suspicious. I really want to strongly highlight it, if you are going to maintain your privacy by using someone else's identity and revealing his/her privacy, then you are a moron (It's definitely not meant for you, I'm just generally saying).

CEX basically means Centralized exchange. So any service for exchanging cryptos that goes through a single point of failure such a website is technically also centralized. Including every website you have listed except for Bisq (that's how Bettercallraul were able to exit scam everyone).

Well, thinking that way, Bitcoin is everything other than decentralized p2p payment method that doesn't depend on 3rd parties. Actually, you depend on 3rd parties, including miners and node runners. If nodes don't broadcast and if miners don't include your transaction in the next block, you won't be able to finalize transaction. You also depend on Core developers, internet service providers, on electricity and so on. So, I would say that exchanging via Bisq is still a decentralized way.

[freedomgo]

I see your good intention here, to make these traders aware that centralized exchanges will never be good and profitable forever. But the fact that every trader has its own point of view about centralized exchanges, then you can never take control of their actions towards the exchanges. Good thing if they just listen to the long time traders in the market since they gained more experiences than them, but traders nowadays have their own perspective and their own plans in trading. I just hope they will not suffer losing their coins from trusting these centralized exchanges.

[Z-tight]

Well, thinking that way, Bitcoin is everything other than decentralized p2p payment method that doesn't depend on 3rd parties. Actually, you depend on 3rd parties, including miners and node runners. If nodes don't broadcast and if miners don't include your transaction in the next block, you won't be able to finalize transaction. You also depend on Core developers, internet service providers, on electricity and so on. So, I would say that exchanging via Bisq is still a decentralized way.

Miners and nodes aren't third parties, neither can they work arbitrarily, the consensus rules must be followed. Miners and nodes are contributors that are part of the BTC network and community, and it is decentralized and open because any BTC user can run their own node or become a miner.

Centralized third parties work arbitrarily, they can make their own rules or take any decision without your consent, they can confiscate your funds, suspend or stop withdrawals, etc, exchanging via bisq is decentralized, not because you depend on the internet or electricity, the world depends on that, lol. It is decentralized because there is no third party that controls your money or can take any arbitrary decision, you control the funds and trade directly in a peer to peer manner.

[Bushdark]

Some persons might not still understand what it means by not your key, nit your coin. This will take some  persons a big life experience for them to have fully understanding. There are few exchanges that had crashed and those that are victims of such exvhnages would understand what it means for someone not to have access to the key of there wallet. Even though we want to make us of an exchange for transactions, we should ensure that we are only holding small quantities of coins there so that if anything happens, it would not have greater effect on our holdings.

[mirakal]

Yes this has been the Tag line ever since now and would love to follow it always after having few bad experiences with the exchanger. The first incidence was during the Zerodha collapse in India when I had most of the funds on zerodha. The problem started when Zerodha grew very big in very short period of time. They had this charm of attracting peeps on their platform with easy to use exchange facility, cheap rates of fees, faster transaction etc. However it was deceiving factor to get into it. That’s how I lost the touch with wallets which are non custodial. But after it collapsed most of the funds were ceased and were locked for very long time until banks unlocked them for us. Since then I’m not trusting any exchanger at all.

I must say your experience has greatly taught you a big lesson, and that is not to trust centralized exchanges as they can’t guarantee the safety of our coins in a long period. Yes, we would always want to look for bigger and more reputable exchanges when trading, but that is just for trading purposes as we only have few decentralized exchanges that are making their own names in the market. Other than that, storing a lot of bitcoin in a centralized exchange will never be advisable anymore. You can open your own hardware wallet for better security, which will not put your coins into high risk of losing.

[BenCodie]

I get your point that the saying does not directly refer to exchanging Bitcoin, however anyone who is completely following the rule will already not be using CEXs to exchange.

If you deposit into a CEX or used a centralized swap service, you are violating the rule as you are temporarily giving up ownership of your coins. So, anyone following the rules will already be thinking "how do I swap or liquidate without sacrificing sovereignty?"...This question should then lead to a line of searching that would lead then to P2P & decentralized exchanges.

My point? There's no need to make the saying more obvious. If it's followed completely, CEXs aren't being used for storage, or exchanging.

[Ale88]

So why not just advise and tell people to stop using CEX entirely? Bitcoin is by nature decentralized, why make it centralized? Why should a CEX that doesn't deserve to store our financial funds, our cryptos, deserve to be left with our banking and personal information?

While I agree with the majority of things you said, let's not forget that not everyone is able to use cold wallets, DEXs, and other tools that require a certain knowledge because just one little mistake and you can lose everything. With this I'm not saying that CEXs are 100% safe but for the average Joe they work just fine. If CEXs didn't exist bitcoin would need way more time to spread and in the future they will likely succumb to DEXs but, in my opinion, for the moment we still need them since we need more adoption.

[BlackBoss_]

While I agree with the majority of things you said, let's not forget that not everyone is able to use cold wallets, DEXs, and other tools that require a certain knowledge because just one little mistake and you can lose everything. With this I'm not saying that CEXs are 100% safe but for the average Joe they work just fine. If CEXs didn't exist bitcoin would need way more time to spread and in the future they will likely succumb to DEXs but, in my opinion, for the moment we still need them since we need more adoption.

You don't have only cold wallets to use. You can choose single signature wallet, multi signature wallet to use and they are free. You can buy open source hard ware wallets if you have money but it is not at top of your list if you want something free.

Decentralized exchanges have their low trading volume and risk of scam from trade partners so if a person is not familiar with Bitcoin transaction and that type of trading, use Centralized exchanges first.

[LIST] Open Source Hardware Wallets

[laurenB7742]

There is one problem with this quote. This quote assumes that everybody that uses bitcoin understands its underlying tech. In fact, some people don't care about it at all. Some people just use crypto as a way to get rich quick. For them, it doesn't matter what they are trading. BTC, ETH, LTC, XMR, DOGE, SHIB... These are all the same for these people. For them BTC is just another casino token. We can't expect them to think that much even though it is in their interest to think about these stuff. Some people will fail anyway.

You said "Not your keys, Not your coins" is not enough... and I say, "Not your keys, Not your coins" is more than enough. (for these people anyway)

That's right, I agree with a lot of what you wrote;  people trade and they don't know what they are doing, they don't have a clue what bitcoin or ethereum or monero is.  They don't know the underlying technology or the differences, they don't know why Bitcoin does this and why it does it better than others, they don't know how to keep it in their own private keys, in fact they don't know they really know that it can be moved to a safe place, because they been told to use an exchange and maybe they registered through a referral from a trusted friend.  There is still a long way to go.

That proves that not all traders are ready and good enough. Some are just here for trading alone, without  even thinking about the security and safety of their coins. As long as they can trade and gain profits, that what’s only matter to them. But if they have been in the shoes of those people who have save their coins in FTX, perhaps it will serve as an eye opener for them not to trust and place their coins in a centralized exchange for an indefinite period of time.

I think that without education these people will never learn their lesson, because maybe they don't know that custodial wallets exist and have entered an exchange not really knowing how cryptocurrencies work but thinking they are trading like on the stock exchange.  That's what education is actually missing.

I think they know all about custodial and non-custodial wallets or the saying "not your keys, not your money.", but the problem is they ignore it because their priority goal is how to make the most profit. It can be said that, for a day trader, profit is the top concern. Furthermore, since decentralized exchanges have not yet been able to provide them with a favorable trading environment, they will look to centralized exchanges as that is the only option.
Even if Binance collapses and the DEX still cannot provide a good trading environment like CEX, traders will still use other CEXs despite the risks.

[Solosanz]

Decentralized exchanges have their low trading volume and risk of scam from trade partners so if a person is not familiar with Bitcoin transaction and that type of trading, use Centralized exchanges first.

Decentralized exchange isn't that bad like you said.

People just need to read how to use the exchange and follow all of the instructions, most of the reason why people get scammed in DEX due to greedy and low literacy. The DEX always ask the buyer to check if the seller have send the money before release the buyer's money. But the buyer not really care about that and they easily get scammed due to the seller ask them to trade outside of the exchange where there's no escrow.

[davis196]

I agree with your point, but what happens after the Bitcoin/crypto ecosystem becomes completely CEX/KYC free?
I'm sure that all the governments will start banning crypto mining and trying to shut down all DEX platforms, due to money laundering and tax evasion. Maybe the DEX platform will host their servers somewhere offshore. Maybe the DEX platforms and non-custodial wallets will fuse into one decentralized service.
Let's not forget that CEX platforms are one of the main reasons Bitcoin reached really high price levels. Will it be the same when CEX platforms go down? The centralized crypto companies abiding by the rules and regulations and imposing KYC is one of the reasons the governments still tolerate the crypto industry. I'm not a fan of centralized crypto companies at all, but they also contribute something to the crypto industry.

[Latviand]

~

Binance is known for being a good and reputable company, but I don’t think it will still be the same in the next years or decade.

@DooMAD already said what I was about to say about this so...

~

The reason why we don’t need to trust them wholeheartedly as we might only regret our decision in the future. However, I respect your decision to store your bitcoins in an exchange like Binance because what you think is what matters for you. But you should know at least that centralized exchanges will never guarantee the safety and security of our coins and what had happened to FTX might also happen to your trusted exchange. That’s the reason why instead of prioritizing Binance and other centralized exchanges, I think it’s best to just avoid them and settle for self-custodial wallets. That way, we own our personal coins and we are solely responsible of their security, and not another third party company.

Dude, what you're saying, I already know that, if you've read my whole reply regarding why I still ise Binance, your paragraph would be much shorter. But for you and others to see I will repeat it, "I don't care about the money too much", I want to gradually detach myself from material things and I hope that my indifference to the fate of my bitcoins in the hands of Binance is a step forward to that.

[dzungmobile]

your paragraph would be much shorter

With long paragraphs, posters think they are making quality posts. Indeed, it only reduces quality of the post. Ideas for your posts are more important. After a poster has a good idea, it's time to express that idea succinctly enough, not too short, not too long and still describe that idea clearly enough.

This quote can enlighten some posters.

When trying to write quality posts, a lot of people act as though they're writing a book report for school: putting facts that we already know into their own words. Nobody wants to read that, and you will not get merit for it. Moreover, the length of your post and the quality of your English are only minor factors. In trying to write a quality post worthy of merit, you should offer new ideas, personal experiences, or perspectives that other forum users will actually find new and interesting.

[CryptSafe]

I agree with your point, but what happens after the Bitcoin/crypto ecosystem becomes completely CEX/KYC free?
I'm sure that all the governments will start banning crypto mining and trying to shut down all DEX platforms, due to money laundering and tax evasion. Maybe the DEX platform will host their servers somewhere offshore. Maybe the DEX platforms and non-custodial wallets will fuse into one decentralized service.
Let's not forget that CEX platforms are one of the main reasons Bitcoin reached really high price levels. Will it be the same when CEX platforms go down? The centralized crypto companies abiding by the rules and regulations and imposing KYC is one of the reasons the governments still tolerate the crypto industry. I'm not a fan of centralized crypto companies at all, but they also contribute something to the crypto industry.

Truly CEX was the reason why bitcoin was very much and fast in circulation. It also aided in price increase as well but you should not forget that the CEX is also the arm of government on Crypto. Through the CEX government do whatever they want to control the industry and they have their ways with it. Although they have been very much instrumental for the wide spread of Crypto currency globally and it is good CEX worked that way but never safe to keep your funds with them for your own good.

[posi]

I see your good intention here, to make these traders aware that centralized exchanges will never be good and profitable forever. But the fact that every trader has its own point of view about centralized exchanges, then you can never take control of their actions towards the exchanges. Good thing if they just listen to the long time traders in the market since they gained more experiences than them, but traders nowadays have their own perspective and their own plans in trading. I just hope they will not suffer losing their coins from trusting these centralized exchanges.

But I want to ask you a question, if you are a trader and don't want to use centralized exchanges out of fear of risks. So what will you do to make a profit, and what will be the solution for traders if they do not use centralized exchanges? We are long term holders, and using exchanges is not recommended, but traders, they have no second choice.
People are always praising decentralized exchanges, but I wonder why they can't create a perfect place for traders like what centralized exchanges provide?

[Wind_FURY]

Well, thinking that way, Bitcoin is everything other than decentralized p2p payment method that doesn't depend on 3rd parties. Actually, you depend on 3rd parties, including miners and node runners.

It all starts with one full node, just like how Satoshi started to bootstrap the network. Each node is a peer, and in itself both a server and a client. The network needs multiple peers to be an actual network, but saying a single full node depends on other full nodes in your context, is wrong. Each node independently validates.

If nodes don't broadcast and if miners don't include your transaction in the next block, you won't be able to finalize transaction. You also depend on Core developers, internet service providers, on electricity and so on.

That's true, but the genius of Satoshi's creation is in its incentive structure. If a miner won't include your transaction in the next block, another miner will and take the fees. It would have been better for that miner to maximize its own profit than giving opportunities to the other miners.

[Synchronice]

Well, thinking that way, Bitcoin is everything other than decentralized p2p payment method that doesn't depend on 3rd parties. Actually, you depend on 3rd parties, including miners and node runners.

It all starts with one full node, just like how Satoshi started to bootstrap the network. Each node is a peer, and in itself both a server and a client. The network needs multiple peers to be an actual network, but saying a single full node depends on other full nodes in your context, is wrong. Each node independently validates.

If nodes don't broadcast and if miners don't include your transaction in the next block, you won't be able to finalize transaction. You also depend on Core developers, internet service providers, on electricity and so on.

That's true, but the genius of Satoshi's creation is in its incentive structure. If a miner won't include your transaction in the next block, another miner will and take the fees. It would have been better for that miner to maximize its own profit than giving opportunities to the other miners.

My whole point in my post was to briefly explain to NotATether that using DEX for exchanging crypto is not actually a centralized way and if we think that technically it's a centralized way, then we can consider absolutely everything about bitcoin to be centralized. That was just my point, that's all.

Btw guys, have you thought about what would be Bitcoin's price if centralized exchanges didn't exist? Or how massively adopt it would be? I am not a CEX fan but it has its pros and cons that we can't deny.

[el kaka22]

It is sad to see that people are still not 100% sure what they are doing and that means we are not going to see security in the crypto world all that often and not anytime soon. There are still a lot of people who keep on forgetting that crypto is a dangerous place and since the law is not on our side just yet, people who hack or steal or scam you "usually" do not get caught. Of course anyone who does it for a grand scale would be caught or at least looked for, there are people who stole millions, and those people will be searched.

However, someone who steals a few grand from someone in the crypto world will not be cared about at all, so you can't really trust anyone in this world and you need to be more careful than you probably should be.