Tornado cash and others mixers

[Becassine]

Hello,

I've been following the tornado cash case, but I didn't quite understand why this particular mixer was targeted and not all mixers in general. It seems to me that it would make more sense to target none or all of them, no?

I think I'm missing some information to fully understand.

Ps: do you have any information on the dev arrested in the Netherlands?

[1714616899]

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[komisariatku]

Tornado cash is considered an offense by the US Department of the Treasury for money laundering. Seems like all the money laundering accusations are always attached to the mixing company. Tornadocash is reported to have laundered $7 billion.

Tornado Cash is accused of using their mixer service for money laundering by the Lazarus Group. According to reports, the Lazarus Group laundered $455 million. Apart from Lazarus, the Tornado Cash service is also used by a hacker group called Harmony. Harmony is a group of hackers specializing in breaking into crypto platforms, they laundered $100 million in Tornado Cash

[Findingnemo]

Here is the actual reason

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/08/crypto-mixing-service-tornado-cash-blacklisted-by-treasury-department-.html
Crypto mixing service Tornado Cash blacklisted by Treasury Department for alleged use in laundering


    The Treasury Department has sanctioned the popular cryptocurrency mixing service Tornado Cash for allegedly helping launder over $7 billion of virtual currency.
    The decision means that Americans are banned from using the service.
    Similar sanctions were imposed in May 2022 on another popular service, Blender.io.

....

This is not the first a crypto mixer is sanctioned, blacklisted or shut down completely even in the most recent days the most reputed bitcoin mixer called Chipmixer was shut down by EU and US accusing of money laundering.

[Becassine]

All mixers work the same way, why are some in the viewfinder and not others? How to know if the holders of such an address have committed illicit activities or not? Can the owner of the mixer know? Is its role to block addresses possibly?

[Findingnemo]

All mixers work the same way, why are some in the viewfinder and not others?

Operating a mixing service is not illegal but when they are found to be abused by users to violate the laws will get them to face the consequences. So whatever crypto mixers have broken the guidelines such as it has been used for money laundering purpose can face legal actions.

How to know if the holders of such an address have committed illicit activities or not? Can the owner of the mixer know? Is its role to block addresses possibly?

Obviously by tracing and investigating the user database along with the address used in the instance of hack, scam, crime,etc and its connected the dots with a mixer address. Mixing service platform may blacklist the funds incoming from addresses related to hacks.

[FinneysTrueVision]

Tornado cash was based in the Netherlands. Chipmixer was based in Vietnam. Both of these countries will comply with whatever the United States wants them to do. Both of these mixers were used by North Korean hackers so they had a big target on their back from U.S. law enforcement. The U.S. was not going to allow these mixers to provide their service to a country that they see as an enemy, allowing them to bypass their sanctions.

[DapanasFruit]

In my view, all crypto mixers are always getting a red flag observation by the government most especially coming from USA regulatory bodies. Though there is always a debate on the importance of mixers and how they can also be utilized by non-illegal means, there is no question that when you are hiding something then we can assume that there can be something wrong, that is aside from claim of privacy, of course. Now, I have not used any mixer in the past and I don't I will ever use one. I think Tornado Cash was targeted because of the claims it was heavily used by hackers and scammers and we have to admit it that mixers are accepting business irregardless of the source of funds and they usually do not ask who their customers are.

[libert19]

Tornado cash was based in the Netherlands. Chipmixer was based in Vietnam. Both of these countries will comply with whatever the United States wants them to do. Both of these mixers were used by North Korean hackers so they had a big target on their back from U.S. law enforcement. The U.S. was not going to allow these mixers to provide their service to a country that they see as an enemy, allowing them to bypass their sanctions.

If that's true, I wonder how long will Sinbad mixer will last, it's also used by north korean hackers however the dev is quite confident of his anonymity.

As for whether Mehdi himself might be identified, indicted, arrested, or sanctioned, he told WIRED he remains relatively confident about his own fate. He shared a long list of cryptocurrency mixing services on the forum BitcoinTalk, pointing out that relatively few have faced those outcomes. "It would be silly not to worry about it at all. I take all the necessary precautions to protect my anonymity," he wrote—notably, prior to Elliptic's revelation that Sinbad and Blender may be connected—but he added that "I expect to remain part of the market and not become one of the unfortunate exceptions."

— Source

[Becassine]

I do not have the impression that the authorities are so eager to sanction "official" banks that launder money from illicit activities

[OcTradism]

I've been following the tornado cash case, but I didn't quite understand why this particular mixer was targeted and not all mixers in general. It seems to me that it would make more sense to target none or all of them, no?

They were targeted when they became bigger and more money laundered on their platform. Especially when the Lazarus Group laundered stolen cryptocurrency on Tornado Cash, they were more seriously chased by governments.

Why did the US Treasury sanction Tornado Cash?

According to the Treasury, Tornado Cash has laundered approximately $7 billion in cryptocurrency since its inception in 2019. The laundered assets include $445 million hacked by the Lazarus Group, a well-known North Korean hacker group subject to US penalties. The group was previously tied to the $625 million Ronin Network and $100 million Horizon Bridge hacks.

Ps: do you have any information on the dev arrested in the Netherlands?

Yes, the developer was arrested in Netherlands.
Tornado Cash Developer to Stay in Jail as Dutch Trial Continues

[Aanuoluwatofunmi]

I've been following the tornado cash case, but I didn't quite understand why this particular mixer was targeted and not all mixers in general. It seems to me that it would make more sense to target none or all of them, no?

The problem is not about the mixers but tornado cash involvements in series of crime related offenses already known by many people, have you considered betterqual mixer to mention few from the recent ones, they were targeted while we have other mixers not targeted because they have never been found in such mess before, there's alot to discuss when it comes to integrity, trust and reputation which tornado cash was found lacking behind, now we should know more about who are the developers behind their operations and what security measures have they taken against their system hack before this happened.

[zasad@]

Hello,

I've been following the tornado cash case, but I didn't quite understand why this particular mixer was targeted and not all mixers in general. It seems to me that it would make more sense to target none or all of them, no?

I think I'm missing some information to fully understand.

Ps: do you have any information on the dev arrested in the Netherlands?

Tornado cash was a large and well-known project and the blow to such a project was a signal for the entire crypto industry. The development team was not very smart not to understand all the legal implications of such a project and that hackers and criminals would use it. But the same accusations can be made against any major project.

[Yogee]

[....]It seems to me that it would make more sense to target none or all of them, no?

No straightforward declaration that the service is illegal but I think all mixers are included in the watchlist of various Government organizations so that's basically saying there's a target on their back. Keep in mind that there were a lot of mixers that were seized prior to the Tornado Cash sanction.

I do not have the impression that the authorities are so eager to sanction "official" banks that launder money from illicit activities

It's not that banks launder the money. It's banks that doesn't have strong security measures against money laundering and uncooperative that are usually sanctioned.

[zasad@]

Yes, the developer was arrested in Netherlands.
Tornado Cash Developer to Stay in Jail as Dutch Trial Continues

https://twitter.com/blockblanc/status/1648998168527360001?
"Next Wednesday 26th, he can await his trial at home with electronic monitoring.

The most important thing is that he can walk around and work on his defense, something that was virtually impossible while detained."
https://decrypt.co/137355/dutch-court-agrees-to-free-tornado-cash-dev-alex-pertsev-pending-trial
The criminal case will not end soon

https://decrypt.co/142239/tornado-cash-developer-alexey-pertsev-question-chainalysis
Tornado Cash Developer Can Question Chainalysis at Trial, Says Judge
The court granted Pertsev permission to question Chainalysis about its methods, albeit in writing, because of the role its data played in his arrest.

[Faisal2202]

Hello,

I've been following the tornado cash case, but I didn't quite understand why this particular mixer was targeted and not all mixers in general. It seems to me that it would make more sense to target none or all of them, no?

I think I'm missing some information to fully understand.

Ps: do you have any information on the dev arrested in the Netherlands?

One of the many reasons is US officials has lit this specific BTC mixer on their sanction list while others are not on the sanction list so they are investigating Tornado not others.

The second reason is, they are investigating Tornado mixer for like 3 years and they have theories that said it has been used to launder $7 billion. Which make the mixer most wanted among others. I can see on a news that they are investigating this case from quite some time but one of the founder caught by the Dutch law forces.

I am also speculating another mixer which is being promoted on this platform. After the last one was seized by official. I do not want to mention the name but I have read some reports from quite some time and I think official will shift their interest toward that mixer too.

The point is when the officials will have something in their hands to capture anyone involved in laundering then they will proceed until they cannot make any step that's why they are catching the ones who may be involved in Tornado but they are not catching those on whom they have nothing in their hands. Like proofs.

[Zoomic]

Tornado cash is considered an offense by the US Department of the Treasury for money laundering. Seems like all the money laundering accusations are always attached to the mixing company. Tornadocash is reported to have laundered $7 billion.

Tornado Cash is accused of using their mixer service for money laundering by the Lazarus Group. According to reports, the Lazarus Group laundered $455 million. Apart from Lazarus, the Tornado Cash service is also used by a hacker group called Harmony. Harmony is a group of hackers specializing in breaking into crypto platforms, they laundered $100 million in Tornado Cash

Invariably all mixers are stained. They have sinned in one way or the other in the eyes of the government. They are all lambs in the alter of sacrifice. It is a matter of whose turn to be sacrificed and not the reason to be sacrificed.
It is high time mixers begin to consider economic friendliness before starting operation in a particular zone.

[joniboini]

It is high time mixers begin to consider economic friendliness before starting operation in a particular zone.

What kind of friendliness are you talking about? A business that focuses on privacy is not going to be popular if they explicitly share data with the government. Maybe they'll do it behind the scene, though I've yet to see one that is safe from a government investigation. Another option is probably explicitly banning money laundering activities on their ToS. Not sure how effective that will be since it doesn't guarantee any immunity, not to mention their potential customer might not use them because of that too.

[dansus021]

there is actually bunch of case similiar to tornado cash us government keep banning the mixer since they argue that mixer used for criminal to launder the money.

and tornado cash actually big since it happen on ethereum and the majority of hacker laundry their money to tornado cash and the app accept not just eth but also stablecoin bnb and other this might be the advantage of tornado cash

[zasad@]

there is actually bunch of case similiar to tornado cash us government keep banning the mixer since they argue that mixer used for criminal to launder the money.

and tornado cash actually big since it happen on ethereum and the majority of hacker laundry their money to tornado cash and the app accept not just eth but also stablecoin bnb and other this might be the advantage of tornado cash

The US government has also accused many crypto exchanges of this crime. Any crime in the blockchain leaves its traces forever, and therefore the blockchain will work against criminals in time, when experts see all the transactions of criminals.
But the trial has only just begun, let's wish Alexei Pertsev patience.

[Zoomic]

It is high time mixers begin to consider economic friendliness before starting operation in a particular zone.

What kind of friendliness are you talking about? A business that focuses on privacy is not going to be popular if they explicitly share data with the government. Maybe they'll do it behind the scene, though I've yet to see one that is safe from a government investigation. Another option is probably explicitly banning money laundering activities on their ToS. Not sure how effective that will be since it doesn't guarantee any immunity, not to mention their potential customer might not use them because of that too.

It seems you misunderstood me or I didn't express myself so well. The friendliness used in this context doesn't mean the mixers being wiling to share all the private data in their custody to the government. It rather means an environment where the government is less concerned on what happens in the mixers.
Going by your suggestion that the mixers should ban money laundering activities in their ToS. Even if they do, it cannot be monitored. I also feel that the mixers are not involved in some of the laundering that happens.