Mixin Safe: A Convenient and Decentralized Multisig + MPC + Timelock solution

[cedricfung]

Technically they can use any software to do the CMP-MPC
it's technically possible to do the process to access the members key

Emphasis mine, and that's my concern. It's technically possible to set up this inheritance and recovery type of multi-sig arrangement yourself, but as you correctly point out, it is beyond the skill set of the vast majority of average users. It will also be beyond their skill set to recover their coins if your service disappears, and that's a very dangerous situation to be in. And you are not incentivized to release a tool to allow them to do so, since then they can easily bypass your pricing model.

the plan is not to let the users develop software, it's to provide another software to help them. A decentralized system allows a new software to do the job, unlike a centralized system rug.

You are essentially hoping that some unknown developer will be kind enough to develop a tool to allow users to recover their coins, for free, in their own time. That's a big assumption.

At first, Mixin Safe makes bitcoin multisig+timelock conveniently usable for average users, otherwise they have no other choices.

Second, we have been running for 6 years, that's long enough, we have no incentive to go offline.

Finally, even if we are offline, many developers or companies should be incentive enough to develop new tools. Imagine Mixin Safe can attract customers to pay $1000 per year, why no other companies want to do this? If we have 1000 customers, a new company can easily have 1000 customers to use their service.

[1714672178]

1714672178

[hugeblack]

As I said, I don't like miniscript^[1], but why was Timelock chosen and why exactly at least 1 year? Also, the phrase at least may mean for more than a year.
If we assume that the use is for the heirs, it is possible after the members return the key with the recovery key and be able to withdraw the money without the consent of the owner key. Therefore, here we cannot apply it as a model for the heirs (it may be a good service if it is linked to biometric indicators that activate a lock for a period of 6 months from the date of death of the owner key holder)

I hate to say it but centralized solutions or trust in heirs are the logical ways to solve the problem of the death of the bitcoin owner.

That means the recovery key can only be used after your safe address is inactive for at least 1 year.

[1] https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5459839.msg62556275#msg62556275

[cedricfung]

As I said, I don't like miniscript^[1], but why was Timelock chosen and why exactly at least 1 year? Also, the phrase at least may mean for more than a year.
If we assume that the use is for the heirs, it is possible after the members return the key with the recovery key and be able to withdraw the money without the consent of the owner key. Therefore, here we cannot apply it as a model for the heirs (it may be a good service if it is linked to biometric indicators that activate a lock for a period of 6 months from the date of death of the owner key holder)

I hate to say it but centralized solutions or trust in heirs are the logical ways to solve the problem of the death of the bitcoin owner.

That means the recovery key can only be used after your safe address is inactive for at least 1 year.

[1] https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5459839.msg62556275#msg62556275

The lock means to limit the ability of the recovery key, the timelock duration can be set on a per safe basis, 1 year is just a default setting. And for the test service, this duration is only 3 days.

I agree with on the logical ways. That's what Mixin Safe is doing, provides a good service to do the inheritance in the logical way. You add your trusted people to the safe, setup the trusted inheritance key manager, in a multisig and timelocked way, and easy to manage, and everybody is able to master it.

[Latviand]

Hi, I'm one of the reviewers in your Review Campaign, I have to ask whether you are shouldering the 2 USD payment for creating a safe? I don't mind paying for it myself but I have to make sure that there's an option that you will be able to shoulder the payment. I'm currently checking it right now and that's the only part that I'm stuck.

[Zoomic]

Thanks o_e_l_e_o, after the extended discussion between you and Op, I have gotten a clear hint of how the project works.

Hi, I'm one of the reviewers in your Review Campaign, I have to ask whether you are shouldering the 2 USD payment for creating a safe? I don't mind paying for it myself but I have to make sure that there's an option that you will be able to shoulder the payment. I'm currently checking it right now and that's the only part that I'm stuck.

What do you mean by shouldering the payment of 2 USD. If you are accepted for the review campaign, btc upto 0.003 or so would be sent to you and that will be enough to shoulder whatever payment and also compensate your efforts.

[NotATether]

Hi, I'm one of the reviewers in your Review Campaign, I have to ask whether you are shouldering the 2 USD payment for creating a safe? I don't mind paying for it myself but I have to make sure that there's an option that you will be able to shoulder the payment. I'm currently checking it right now and that's the only part that I'm stuck.

What do you mean by shouldering the payment of 2 USD. If you are accepted for the review campaign, btc upto 0.003 or so would be sent to you and that will be enough to shoulder whatever payment and also compensate your efforts.

I agree with you. Initially, I was quite shocked to see a pricing to even use the safe at all (more details are in the review), but perhaps in a few days, once I get over this surprise, I might create a safe and see how it goes.

*The total costs will actually be more than $2 since there's a network fee that is deducted from all outgoing transactions from the wallet/safe, that is significantly larger than $2, but it should not be higher than about $20 or so from my experimenting.

[LoyceV]

there's a network fee that is deducted from all outgoing transactions from the wallet/safe

See:

For test, the price is very cheap, starts at $2 per year, and it includes a free transaction to send, so $2 is the minimum cost for a tester.

[NotATether]

there's a network fee that is deducted from all outgoing transactions from the wallet/safe

See:

For test, the price is very cheap, starts at $2 per year, and it includes a free transaction to send, so $2 is the minimum cost for a tester.

The network fee apparently only applies to the wallet transactions, not to the safe.


Anyway, I'm having trouble getting $10 worth of bitcoins out of the Safe. I can approve the transaction with the app, but I can't for the life of me get the PSBT to sign on Bitcoin Core so that I can give it the "final approval".

Code:

# The PSBT I'm given to sign:
cHNidP8BAG0CAAAAAUFu84YkNsGPV2cIqxFcO59PXJ8pJY9TMw90ew6qXp+VAAAAAAD/////AkCcAAAAAAAAFgAUH8WFFsDMwDYR8WzeafSpjeMzGXUAAAAAAAAAABJqEGraR8OsQUhlhYdcPQRibgMAAAAAAAEBK0CcAAAAAAAAIgAgaN/B/zX5booLeWET8OQDmgXWR24Fx1wvU4fIw7mWekQBAwSBAAAAAQV4IQLsNyxLbWpvwJZOB91IRIvISSFGn7/cTFItqQ86a5VP6ax8IQPWQXejk5icX/nIYD30IeKJDQORPx4eXnlItj9+E2pX0ayTfIKSYyEC2E82kxxhOPGCWknCn1xNmvlSTKeV4TO4z8ZaAazXfJqtArABspJok1KHAAAA

# I have the following address and public key in the private key wallet:
02ec372c4b6d6a6fc0964e07dd48448bc84921469fbfdc4c522da90f3a6b954fe9
16THpFJrhKtiWKtZGZ6BsKCJpeR5Bvpuim

# The script imported into the script wallet is:
wsh(thresh(2,pk(02ec372c4b6d6a6fc0964e07dd48448bc84921469fbfdc4c522da90f3a6b954fe9),s:pk(03d64177a393989c5ff9c8603df421e2890d03913f1e1e5e7948b63f7e136a57d1),sj:and_v(v:pk(02d84f36931c6138f1825a49c29f5c4d9af9524ca795e133b8cfc65a01acd77c9a),n:older(432))))#pdtn7kxw

The first key is my public key, the second key I assume belongs to my Mixin Wallet and the third is probably owned by the network, so it seems that the timelock will not help me in any case.

I wish you had set this up with Testnet first...

[cedricfung]

Anyway, I'm having trouble getting $10 worth of bitcoins out of the Safe. I can approve the transaction with the app, but I can't for the life of me get the PSBT to sign on Bitcoin Core so that I can give it the "final approval".

Code:

# The PSBT I'm given to sign:
cHNidP8BAG0CAAAAAUFu84YkNsGPV2cIqxFcO59PXJ8pJY9TMw90ew6qXp+VAAAAAAD/////AkCcAAAAAAAAFgAUH8WFFsDMwDYR8WzeafSpjeMzGXUAAAAAAAAAABJqEGraR8OsQUhlhYdcPQRibgMAAAAAAAEBK0CcAAAAAAAAIgAgaN/B/zX5booLeWET8OQDmgXWR24Fx1wvU4fIw7mWekQBAwSBAAAAAQV4IQLsNyxLbWpvwJZOB91IRIvISSFGn7/cTFItqQ86a5VP6ax8IQPWQXejk5icX/nIYD30IeKJDQORPx4eXnlItj9+E2pX0ayTfIKSYyEC2E82kxxhOPGCWknCn1xNmvlSTKeV4TO4z8ZaAazXfJqtArABspJok1KHAAAA

# I have the following address and public key in the private key wallet:
02ec372c4b6d6a6fc0964e07dd48448bc84921469fbfdc4c522da90f3a6b954fe9
16THpFJrhKtiWKtZGZ6BsKCJpeR5Bvpuim

# The script imported into the script wallet is:
wsh(thresh(2,pk(02ec372c4b6d6a6fc0964e07dd48448bc84921469fbfdc4c522da90f3a6b954fe9),s:pk(03d64177a393989c5ff9c8603df421e2890d03913f1e1e5e7948b63f7e136a57d1),sj:and_v(v:pk(02d84f36931c6138f1825a49c29f5c4d9af9524ca795e133b8cfc65a01acd77c9a),n:older(432))))#pdtn7kxw

The first key is my public key, the second key I assume belongs to my Mixin Wallet and the third is probably owned by the network, so it seems that the timelock will not help me in any case.

I wish you had set this up with Testnet first...

Sorry to hear this  

You lost the private key in your Bitcoin Core? Or any errors that prevent you from using Bitcoin Core to sign the PSBT? And you need both the private key wallet and script wallet to sign the PSBT, and follow the guide in correct order https://support.mixin.one/en/article/how-to-use-bitcoin-core-to-approve-transactions-74l0ro/

In anyway, if you can't do it with Bitcoin Core, go to the Recovery section, and start a recovery with Members Key using Mixin Messenger.

The timelock here means to prevent us from using the Recovery key during the lock time. And that Recovery can only work after the timelock expired as shown in the website.

However, if you have lost both of your Bitcoin Core and Mixin Messenger, then the wallet recovery is impossible in anyway, because the 2-of-3 multisig.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Second, we have been running for 6 years, that's long enough, we have no incentive to go offline.

Don't you think it's hypocritical to call your product decentralized respecting, and requiring your presence at the same time? Neither does Coinbase has incentive of going offline, but shit happens. Shouldn't the average user be able to do this alone, with their family member, when your service shuts down?

Also, I'm sharing the same thoughts with dkbit98 and examplens. What's the phone number for? In your website, it says "Social recovery with phone number and PIN". Is it compulsory? I don't want to give my real phone number, and I neither want to give a temporary that isn't mine, because then the third party can recover the wallet.

I'm preparing the review, so I'm trying to figure out what's wrong.

[cedricfung]

Second, we have been running for 6 years, that's long enough, we have no incentive to go offline.

Don't you think it's hypocritical to call your product decentralized respecting, and requiring your presence at the same time? Neither does Coinbase has incentive of going offline, but shit happens. Shouldn't the average user be able to do this alone, with their family member, when your service shuts down?

Also, I'm sharing the same thoughts with dkbit98 and examplens. What's the phone number for? In your website, it says "Social recovery with phone number and PIN". Is it compulsory? I don't want to give my real phone number, and I neither want to give a temporary that isn't mine, because then the third party can recover the wallet.

I'm preparing the review, so I'm trying to figure out what's wrong.

Here we want to make sure there is no bug of the system. Like for Bitcoin itself, we just discuss the blockchain technology, the implementation, the product itself. We are not trying to raise debate over PoW good or bad for environment.

Everyone has their own argument over any product, let's just focus on the development aspect for now.

But we don't need to discuss this anymore, I think all these questions are already in the previous discussions in this topic.

[Kakmakr]

Can you find a solution to substitute "Mixin Messenger" with a more well known platform? You say you use it to create the wallet... but will Electrum not do the same thing?

It is about time that someone figure out a more user-friendly method to use Multisig and timelock features. In any way, I will monitor and follow this thread... it has potential to be one of the good solutions in the Bitcoin space.  

It just needs to be more decentralized and Open-source for transparency.... preferably without revealing your private telephone number.   

[logfiles]

I thought I would post a few things here that happened after a mead a review about a week back

Especially this parts;

I never set the lock time to 4 days, so I have no idea what happened. How one can modify the lock time, if it's even possible? What if I want 10 days or 30 days?

Why does the time lock automatically set to 4 days or is it just a default for testing purposes?

New Recovery
Anyway, I just did a new recovery by holder keys method and see what happens.
Once I approved, there was not much information about what was happening next. No transaction ID, No record about the receiving address, Not many details about the transaction/activity I had just carried out. No idea whether the Bitcoin is going to appear in my address or not. And if yes, approximately after how long?

In summary, this is how the page looked like

So the Bitcoins finally appeared in the address I had provided during the time when I created a new recovery, but still I went back to my safe dashboard and no details about my recent transaction like transaction ID and address where the bitcoins had been withdrawn to. I think this is really very important for record purposes. Imagine if the locktime is about let say 100 days, there isn't away one is going to have the address in mind after that long except if they just copied it somewhere.

[NotATether]

Can you find a solution to substitute "Mixin Messenger" with a more well known platform? You say you use it to create the wallet... but will Electrum not do the same thing?

It is about time that someone figure out a more user-friendly method to use Multisig and timelock features. In any way, I will monitor and follow this thread... it has potential to be one of the good solutions in the Bitcoin space.  

It just needs to be more decentralized and Open-source for transparency.... preferably without revealing your private telephone number.   

Ideally you would be able to use any Web3-enabled wallet supporting, I dunno, a protocol like "WalletConnect", but the problem with this approach is that most of these wallets only work with ETH-like coins.

Its just a consequence of using TIP for authentication, but I believe any other identifier would work with the underlying algorithm besides phone numbers. Same goes for PINs - it could actually be any string of characters, but since it's a mobile app, it's easier to show PINs I guess.

[cedricfung]

I thought I would post a few things here that happened after a mead a review about a week back

Especially this parts;

I never set the lock time to 4 days, so I have no idea what happened. How one can modify the lock time, if it's even possible? What if I want 10 days or 30 days?

Why does the time lock automatically set to 4 days or is it just a default for testing purposes?

Regarding the timelock, it's by default 4 days for the test purpose. It's possible to set it before creating the safe, but we didn't show the option on the website.

For recovery transactions, the website has improved a lot to show more details. It was not that good a week ago. And as always, you can find all transactions about your Safe address in a Bitcoin explorer.

Can you find a solution to substitute "Mixin Messenger" with a more well known platform? You say you use it to create the wallet... but will Electrum not do the same thing?

It is about time that someone figure out a more user-friendly method to use Multisig and timelock features. In any way, I will monitor and follow this thread... it has potential to be one of the good solutions in the Bitcoin space. 

It just needs to be more decentralized and Open-source for transparency.... preferably without revealing your private telephone number.   

No other wallets have the support for these bitcoin features yet. And the most important thing is we are trying to provide a decentralized solution to people that are used to traditional financial apps and centralized exchanges. Electrum will never provide the same user experience as Mixin Messenger does.

And all Mixin apps are open source since day one, the first commit is six years ago. https://github.com/MixinNetwork

Mixin Messenger is also pretty known I think 

[BlackHatCoiner]

I have installed both Mornin key and Mixin messenger, but in the Mixin app I'm incapable of creating a wallet. When I open up the app, I get the following message:

When I'm entering the (correct) PIN, error "PIN incorrect" pops up:

Has anyone experienced this before? I have tried to uninstall, and reinstall it but it still persists.

[cedricfung]

I have installed both Mornin key and Mixin messenger, but in the Mixin app I'm incapable of creating a wallet. When I open up the app, I get the following message:


When I'm entering the (correct) PIN, error "PIN incorrect" pops up:


Has anyone experienced this before? I have tried to uninstall, and reinstall it but it still persists.

From the screenshots it looks like you have tried to set up a PIN and interruppted somehow, and now you need to continue that process with the old PIN you have tried to set.

But it makes a good point to let a new user to choose a new PIN though. But for now, you must use the old PIN, even if it's failed.

[BlackHatCoiner]

But it makes a good point to let a new user to choose a new PIN though. But for now, you must use the old PIN, even if it's failed.

I don't have a second PIN. The PIN I entered was just one, and nothing interrupted the process. It's curious how no one else experienced this.

Edit: I just downloaded it from another source, and it worked. The properly working apk I just downloaded is mixin-400309.apk.

[noormcs5]

I reviewed this project recently. At the time of upgrading the plan, i send the trx from the exchange and the minimum TRX the exchange allowed was more than the worth of 2$, so some extra TRX were sent. At the time of review, i did not claim my extra trx back to my Mixin Message wallet but later (after a day or so)  i tried to check if this process really works.

So here is my  experience. I got my TRX refund instantly. However i do not understand the role of EPC and how it can be a surety to avoid assets lost through Mixin Wallet ?


          


The whole procedure for a refund is mentioned here. https://help.mixpay.me/en/articles/7063792-how-to-get-a-refund

[cedricfung]

So here is my  experience. I got my TRX refund instantly. However i do not understand the role of EPC and how it can be a surety to avoid assets lost through Mixin Wallet ?

The whole procedure for a refund is mentioned here. https://help.mixpay.me/en/articles/7063792-how-to-get-a-refund

I know there are too many different names involved in using Mixin Safe, but MixPay is a third party app on Mixin Messenger. They issues EPC for you so that you can verify your Mixin Messenger PIN while doing something. So you need to transfer EPC to them to get back the refund. In that procedure you proved that you knew the PIN, otherwise if they just sent back your TRX and you didn't know the PIN at all, then the money is lost.

And these small amount of TRX can't be transferred out of of Mixin Messenger because it doesn't even cover the withdrawal fee. So it's recommended to use it inside Mixin Messenger or MixPay.

MixPay is supported online in many places, like https://www.coinsbee.com/en/