Possible hardware backdoors

[m2017]

Hi all!

I've recently seen a video where a hacker holds a conversation about possible hardware backdoors in some pcs and other devices, mainly in the processor but also in more parts. Those backdoors would come with an OS preinstalled that could spy you.

If you are afraid of this, then how about taking your / friend / relative's old PC / laptop to generate a wallet and then use it? It is unlikely that hardware backdoors will be possible on older devices. The problem with the pre-installed OS on these devices is solved simply by reinstalling on a Linux distribution of your choice (You voice Tails OS).

That is, this way you will surely be safe by not buying new devices, in which backdoors can be pre-installed by manufacturers in the OS and hardware parts, such as the processor. Also, save on expensive purchases.

My question is: if that is the case, how secure would be a wallet that you generate in those devices?

For sure it will not be safe to create a wallet on a device with backdoors.

Would an electrum wallet that you generate with Tails OS and completely offline be safe?

thx!

Perhaps yes, but with a preliminary verification of the Tails OS signature:

https://tails.boum.org/install/linux/index.ru.html#verify

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[Flexystar]

Totally possible. In fact,  NSA has routinely inserted backdoors into computers and various devices to conduct mass surveillance. As such, it would be very much possible that there is some form of backdoor in devices that you interact with on a daily basis. I think the crux of the issue is whether your Bitcoins would be stolen or your privacy would be compromised in this case.
[...]

I could be really off the main topic but does it mean everything Google or Apple like companies do is associated with such type of backdoors? I saw a court filing where CEO of Google was being questioned about the privacy of users. Though I convinced myself that Google is truthful with their users since they ask for the "Consents"from the user and then go for the tracking location, fetching the data, uploading photos and files etc etc. Now recently I have read that Alex from the Amazon is able to make purchases for you from the voice commands. You can ask it to add the items from amazont o your cart and also make the checkout with predefined payment system or balances on the wallet.

It has been studied that all type of devices including our phone, alexa like devices are able to activate the mics now and then to hear what we are saying and tailor the advertisements that way.

Isn't this is already a back door access to the hardware and to our privacy? If we consider this then whatever is being mentioned in the OP can easily happen?

I am just trying to correlate things here.

[ranochigo]

I could be really off the main topic but does it mean everything Google or Apple like companies do is associated with such type of backdoors? I saw a court filing where CEO of Google was being questioned about the privacy of users. Though I convinced myself that Google is truthful with their users since they ask for the "Consents"from the user and then go for the tracking location, fetching the data, uploading photos and files etc etc. Now recently I have read that Alex from the Amazon is able to make purchases for you from the voice commands. You can ask it to add the items from amazont o your cart and also make the checkout with predefined payment system or balances on the wallet.

It has been studied that all type of devices including our phone, alexa like devices are able to activate the mics now and then to hear what we are saying and tailor the advertisements that way.

Isn't this is already a back door access to the hardware and to our privacy? If we consider this then whatever is being mentioned in the OP can easily happen?

I am just trying to correlate things here.

They aren't backdoor in the sense that they've always existed and the capabilities are always there. It's just a matter of if they want to, they can. The backdoor that we're referring to would be more of the covert ones that are inserted by the manufacturer to compromise the security/privacy which exists more on the hardware rather than the software level.

And yes, to answer your question, it isn't that difficult nor rare.

[NotFuzzyWarm]

You really wan to go down this rabbit hole, checkout just what Intel's Management Engine (ME) and AMD's version of it do https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine
It's access to system functions is so pervasive that the NSA required an 'off switch' to disable most of its functions so they can make secure hardware based on non-custom CPU's... https://web.archive.org/web/20201201175708/http://blog.ptsecurity.com/2017/08/disabling-intel-me.html?m=1

[jtx71]

You really wan to go down this rabbit hole, checkout just what Intel's Management Engine (ME) and AMD's version of it do https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine
It's access to system functions is so pervasive that the NSA required an 'off switch' to disable most of its functions for secure hardware... https://web.archive.org/web/20201201175708/http://blog.ptsecurity.com/2017/08/disabling-intel-me.html?m=1

That's what I was referring to. If that exists (and it seems so), no matter the knowledge you have, or the OS or the encryption you use. They can know what you're doing.

Right now there are devices specifically made for Linux users, focused on privacy. They can be a good option as long as they don't use hardware made by big corporations to make their machines. It would be nice if someone can say that these devices are made using not only free open source software, but open source hardware.

[o_e_l_e_o]

What's after that, really? Backdoor for altering the k value in Bitcoin transactions?

It is endless. So you generate your seed phrase using coin flips. Do you manually verify your seed phrase generates the master private key your wallet returns? Do you manually verify every individual private key? Do you manually verify each k value is generated using RFC 6979?

-snip-

It's fairly well known that such companies are constantly spying on you. Google have already been sued for gathering location data from people who had turned off location sharing. All Alexa type devices record everything that is said in their vicinity and transfer it to central servers for analysis and storage. Google, Amazon, Meta, Microsoft, Apple, they are all doing the same stuff. If you are serious about privacy, then you need to avoid them all.

[Synchronice]

Hi all!

I've recently seen a video where a hacker holds a conversation about possible hardware backdoors in some pcs and other devices, mainly in the processor but also in more parts. Those backdoors would come with an OS preinstalled that could spy you.

My question is: if that is the case, how secure would be a wallet that you generate in those devices?

Would an electrum wallet that you generate with Tails OS and completely offline be safe?

thx!

If your hardware, for example, CPU is backdoored, then you can do nothing other than to change it with another hardware. By the way, like you, I'm afraid there is a high chance that modern expensive PCs or Laptops may be backdoored, that's why I prefer to use old device for that purpose.
Along with the air-gapped device, you need to take care of the special environment where you plan to store that computer. You need to block radio waves in that area.
Also, everything depends on where you live. If you live in a country and in a neighborhood where people are in their 40s and don't know how to use tech and kids/teens around you are having fun and rarely know a thing about IT and coding and they only use pc for gaming or gambling, then you can feel more secure.

[NotATether]

You really wan to go down this rabbit hole, checkout just what Intel's Management Engine (ME) and AMD's version of it do https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine
It's access to system functions is so pervasive that the NSA required an 'off switch' to disable most of its functions for secure hardware... https://web.archive.org/web/20201201175708/http://blog.ptsecurity.com/2017/08/disabling-intel-me.html?m=1

That's what I was referring to. If that exists (and it seems so), no matter the knowledge you have, or the OS or the encryption you use. They can know what you're doing.

Right now there are devices specifically made for Linux users, focused on privacy. They can be a good option as long as they don't use hardware made by big corporations to make their machines. It would be nice if someone can say that these devices are made using not only free open source software, but open source hardware.

Management Engine has been around for over 15 years... it's not going anywhere anytime soon.

The idea was for office administrators to be able to remotely turn on/off/diagnose computers (and specifically the processors) on the local LAN a la vPro or similar software, but nobody seems to use it now except for spies. Nobody that I know manages computers like that either, especially now that IPMI consoles are so prevalent now.

[jtx71]

Hi all!

I've recently seen a video where a hacker holds a conversation about possible hardware backdoors in some pcs and other devices, mainly in the processor but also in more parts. Those backdoors would come with an OS preinstalled that could spy you.

My question is: if that is the case, how secure would be a wallet that you generate in those devices?

Would an electrum wallet that you generate with Tails OS and completely offline be safe?

thx!

If your hardware, for example, CPU is backdoored, then you can do nothing other than to change it with another hardware. By the way, like you, I'm afraid there is a high chance that modern expensive PCs or Laptops may be backdoored, that's why I prefer to use old device for that purpose.
Along with the air-gapped device, you need to take care of the special environment where you plan to store that computer. You need to block radio waves in that area.
Also, everything depends on where you live. If you live in a country and in a neighborhood where people are in their 40s and don't know how to use tech and kids/teens around you are having fun and rarely know a thing about IT and coding and they only use pc for gaming or gambling, then you can feel more secure.

Using old computers can be a good idea (always has been), as you and m2017 said. Nevertheless, I think we should support new open source hardware developments in order to have trustworthy computers in the future.

Thx all for the answers!

[ABCbits]

--snip--
You need to block radio waves in that area.
--snip--

This part is overkill, unless you're very sure that you're specifically targeted by government or other group which could harm you.

--snip--

Using old computers can be a good idea (always has been), as you and m2017 said. Nevertheless, I think we should support new open source hardware developments in order to have trustworthy computers in the future.

Thx all for the answers!

Computer without Intel ME (or AMD counterpart) is definitely older than 10 years though and not viable in long term. You might want to look for CPU which use RISC-V architecture instead. AFAIK Bitcoin Core and few Linux distro (such as Debian) already support RISC-V. Although take note device which use RISC-V CPU might still use closed-source hardware parts.

[Synchronice]

--snip--
You need to block radio waves in that area.
--snip--

This part is overkill, unless you're very sure that you're specifically targeted by government or other group which could harm you.

Well, that's definitely overkill but I have seen questions where people were asking for that kind of security, one user was even looking for hardware wallet that would be impossible to be detected by modern and expensive metal detectors.

Computer without Intel ME (or AMD counterpart) is definitely older than 10 years though and not viable in long term. You might want to look for CPU which use RISC-V architecture instead. AFAIK Bitcoin Core and few Linux distro (such as Debian) already support RISC-V. Although take note device which use RISC-V CPU might still use closed-source hardware parts.

Long-term, that's definitely a problem. Btw, at the moment I have Intel Pentium G630 on my old computer, works absolutely fine. But I guess there were way better models available in 2011, so one can easily go with old PC for 5 years and more.
By the way, my approach is to always use as old hardware as possible to protect yourself from hardware backdoors. I just believe that years ago the real motive was to develop things, right now, the real motive is to control things.

[so98nn]

You really wan to go down this rabbit hole, checkout just what Intel's Management Engine (ME) and AMD's version of it do https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine
It's access to system functions is so pervasive that the NSA required an 'off switch' to disable most of its functions for secure hardware... https://web.archive.org/web/20201201175708/http://blog.ptsecurity.com/2017/08/disabling-intel-me.html?m=1

Great, you just made me more scared of the technology and the computer from which I am making this post. Literally, I can imagine all the buttons I am pushing right now have an undetectable connection with the IME and every command is going through them. It means Intel knows every bit of me as I am living today.

I just read the document that is quoted by NotFuzzyWarm, and it's excellent explanation of IME can be watching you from their backdoors. If they can control our hardware then they can control anything at their end.

Is there any evidence that they can operate our machines via the internet and remotely without ever letting us know about it? If you read this then it kinda started to give the feeling of the rise of machines. Lolz

Intel Management Engine is a proprietary technology that consists of a microcontroller integrated into the Platform Controller Hub (PCH) chip and a set of built-in peripherals. The PCH carries almost all communication between the processor and external devices; therefore Intel ME has access to almost all data on the computer. The ability to execute third-party code on Intel ME would allow for a complete compromise of the platform.

The reality goes like this . . .

The disappointing fact is that on modern computers, it is impossible to completely disable ME. This is primarily due to the fact that this technology is responsible for initialization, power management, and launch of the main processor. Another complication lies in the fact that some data is hard-coded inside the PCH chip functioning as the southbridge on modern motherboards. The main method used by enthusiasts trying to disable ME is to remove everything "redundant" from the image while maintaining the computer's operability. But this is not so easy, because if built-in PCH code does not find ME modules in the flash memory or detects that they are damaged, the system will not start.

[Cricktor]

If processor manufacturers are caught with a smoking gun to spy on computer user's activities via ME or AMD counterpart it would be like business suicide. I don't really believe this is happening, but I can't be sure because there's a lot of obscurity involved.

The thing that bugs me more are the intrinsic vulnerabilities that ME have and add to systems. No complex subsystem is free or errors and bugs. Issues with ME have been reported by security researchers in the past and very likely this will continue in the future. The security by obscurity around ME doesn't make security any better, it just hopes to hide things. Good luck with that!

If you're lucky you get a BIOS update which addresses found flaws in ME or AMD counterpart. How often are you lucky? Sigh...

[Synchronice]

Your CPU also has Intel ME though. If people really want to avoid Intel ME and AMD PSP, they need to use Intel CPU before 2008 or AMD CPU before 2013. So it's at least 16 years old PC for Intel and at least 11 years old PC for AMD.

Oh, didn't know about Intel ME and AMD PSP, sorry, a little bit young for that

To be completely honest, my main concern is that there can be a spy microphone on modern complex equipment. Otherwise, if we air-gap old 2011's CPU, I think we can feel safe. Or in the worst case, build a special room and block radio waves in that area.
It worth to mention that air-gapping of your device is absolutely more than necessary if you don't hold thousands of bitcoins and aren't someone special.

[NotFuzzyWarm]

Your CPU also has Intel ME though. If people really want to avoid Intel ME and AMD PSP, they need to use Intel CPU before 2008 or AMD CPU before 2013. So it's at least 16 years old PC for Intel and at least 11 years old PC for AMD.

Oh, didn't know about Intel ME and AMD PSP, sorry, a little bit young for that

To be completely honest, my main concern is that there can be a spy microphone on modern complex equipment. Otherwise, if we air-gap old 2011's CPU, I think we can feel safe. Or in the worst case, build a special room and block radio waves in that area.
It worth to mention that air-gapping of your device is absolutely more than necessary if you don't hold thousands of bitcoins and aren't someone special.

The Intel & AMD CPU's don't have ME or PSP 'in them' per se but they *do* have the IO microcode used by the ME/PSP System Management Engines hard wired into the chips. ME/PSP are part of the main motherboard IO controller chip with their own embedded CPU's (ME uses 1 Pentium and 3 486's) running their own micro-OS and as pointed out already since around 2011 the Intel & AMD CPU's require the core functionality of that chip to operate at all.

Now, it's nice that apparently the 'extra bits' outside of CPU/system initialization can be switched off but - it is a lot simpler to use a system with a different CPU. Like um, a RasPi 3B or higher that does NOT contain a System Management Engine like ME/PSP. Hell you can even hack their bootloader code or at least look at it if desired.

When I'm at the RasPi 3B system I use to run my Sidehack USB miner sticks I find browsing and other 'desktop' functions speed to be more than acceptable. It is really amazing how downright snappy an OS can be even on low performance (compared to a modern desktop/laptop) hardware like a RasPi when the OS is not doing a gazillion other things in the background...

[Kryptowerk]

Your CPU also has Intel ME though. If people really want to avoid Intel ME and AMD PSP, they need to use Intel CPU before 2008 or AMD CPU before 2013. So it's at least 16 years old PC for Intel and at least 11 years old PC for AMD.

Oh, didn't know about Intel ME and AMD PSP, sorry, a little bit young for that

To be completely honest, my main concern is that there can be a spy microphone on modern complex equipment. Otherwise, if we air-gap old 2011's CPU, I think we can feel safe. Or in the worst case, build a special room and block radio waves in that area.
It worth to mention that air-gapping of your device is absolutely more than necessary if you don't hold thousands of bitcoins and aren't someone special.

Given the current technical possibilities for surveillence, I think IF a powerful organisation or government does want to spy on someone or a company, they have plenty of tools available.
One tech that comes to mind, which seemed pretty mind boggling to me at the time (already a few years old), is a special video-analyzing software that can be used to analize micro-vibrations on surfaces of objects to reconstruct the sound emitted to create these vibrations.
I guess it depends on the quality of the video, however as technology advances these limitations will also be less and less of an obstacle.

[serveria.com]

Hi all!

I've recently seen a video where a hacker holds a conversation about possible hardware backdoors in some pcs and other devices, mainly in the processor but also in more parts. Those backdoors would come with an OS preinstalled that could spy you.

My question is: if that is the case, how secure would be a wallet that you generate in those devices?

Would an electrum wallet that you generate with Tails OS and completely offline be safe?

thx!

No wallet or OS is completely safe. Any wallet and pc can be compromised. Regarding the hardware backdoors, I totally believe they exist (we're livin g in the age of surveillance) but the question is if the manufacturers want your Bitcoin or something else?

[jtx71]

No wallet or OS is completely safe. Any wallet and pc can be compromised. Regarding the hardware backdoors, I totally believe they exist (we're livin g in the age of surveillance) but the question is if the manufacturers want your Bitcoin or something else?

Some may think this: if they can, they will.

To avoid doubts, better use an airgapped old computer or a hardware wallet (made with open source software and hardware)

[n0nce]

Not something worth worrying about. If your machine is disconnected from the Internet, that's all you need to know. Network cable unplugged and Wi-Fi password not entered.

I believe one risk of hardware backdoors to be aware of is persistent storage; either secondary / mass storage or (if disconnected) theoretically even on-die. This could allow a 'hardware virus' to persistently store a seed phrase that has been created while the machine is booted in a secure, offline environment (e.g. Tails on USB) and then upload it to a server upon reboot into a regular network-attached operating system.

However, to the best of my knowledge, officially backdoored CPUs don't have (enough) persistent, read- and writeable storage on die to allow for such an attack. Furthermore, anyone with the amount of resources to set up such an attack, usually aims for other goals than stealing some BTC.

If you want to be extra paranoid though, just unplug any other secondary storage before booting Tails and fully turn off the device after creating the seed and remove all power (to flush dynamic memories).
For the maximum level of paranoia, simply never reconnect the hardware to the internet, at all. Keep it as a forever-offline signing-only Tails PC.

To avoid doubts, better use an old computer or a hardware wallet (made with open source software and hardware)

You will be much better off with an open-source, open hardware, airgapped hardware wallet.
I can't believe that nobody is really criticizing this 'old computer' idea. Your 15-16 year old PC will most likely run outdated OS and / or packages, which are much more likely to be exploited than bugs in the CPU.

[jtx71]

You will be much better off with an open-source, open hardware, airgapped hardware wallet.
I can't believe that nobody is really criticizing this 'old computer' idea. Your 15-16 year old PC will most likely run outdated OS and / or packages, which are much more likely to be exploited than bugs in the CPU.

Hi n0nce

Please, forgive for the question but I'm a bit newbie at this.

Can you name some hardware wallets that are made with both open source software and hardware?