Days you need to work your ass at minimum wage for a BTC, by country

[PeRo]

snip

I would consider that minimum wage is not necessarily a "normal" wage, even though every country likely has people (and perhaps even a lot of people) who do actually work at those level of income.

I am not going to claim to know the answers for people, and if we are in a situation where we are having trouble getting work, and the ONLY kinds of work that we are able to get are minimum wage jobs, then likely we have to consider our situation and to consider if we are actually content with that kind of a way of earning income from our work.

I am not even going to deny that some of us likely come from pretty lucky/privileged positions in terms fo having likely had been able to earn quite a bit more than the minimum wages in our own countries...and then of course, compared to other countries of lower wages, then there can be additional feelings of privilege, even though it has already been pointed out that if we come from a country that has higher minimum wages, then it is likely that the cost of living is higher too..., but aspects of the infrastructure might be better as well.. .. a lot of  variables... and sure quite  a bit of luck in terms of what we were born into and whether or not there might be some ways to work towards and/or to achieve social mobility.. and if we have desires to attempt to work towards social mobility or to accept that:

"minimum wage" = "normal"

Another thing is that hardly anyone knew about bitcoin in 2009-2012-ish.. and so as the years past, more and more people learned about bitcoin, and then questions might have come up whether any of us might have heard about bitcoin, thought about bitcoin, and then decided to buy some, in case it were to catch on.

Now, it is starting to seem that bitcoin is catching on more and more and more, and maybe it is unrealistic to even consider trying to get a whole BTC.. and so work on getting as many satoshis as you can, and maybe if you are able to buy 100s of thousands of satoshis, and if you are able to continue to do that for 10 years or more, then you likely might end up finding yourself in a place that few if any of your country men would be able to achieve if they were to start buying into bitcoin 10 years down the road, and you got a head start over them of 10 years or more... .so the answer frequently tends to be to get the fuck started accumulating whatever you are able to accumulate, and don't get too worked up about relatively arbitrary accumulation targets that you may or may not be able to achieve anyhow.

several thousand satoshis is good, hundreds of thousands of satoshis is even better, millions of satoshis is even better than that - etc etc etc.. and there may or may not be an ability to achieve 100 million satoshis, but you are in a much closer position to achieving 100 million satoshis after you have already acquired millions of satoshis than you would be if you are starting from zero... which will likely continue to be the case in the future .. . since many of us likely realize that BTC prices are likely to go up forever, Laura.

Well yes, there are a lot of variables, different situations for everyone. Same as the OP, I just mentioned the somehow raw information in my thinking, without advanced numbers of factors and considering my own countries wealth system.
Of course we have to accept the fact that those are normalized figures as the countries wealth regulates the minimal wages regardless on is it realistic for a consumer or not. As individuals we should surely work on having a greater income if the conditions are favorable.

With the current price it does seem like an impossible mission to hold 1 Bitcoin or even to get close to that, but I like your thinking and I think it would be very motivating for everyone doubting the possibility of investing - like I do sometimes. Even though I earn about 60% more than minimal wage, I struggle to leave cash to invest - but your reply really motivated me to invest as much as I can. Even if it is currently just a few bucks, I will surely work on getting the head start that I need.

[ananyabushra]

TBH, It's not 100% accurate about Bangladesh. It would take 3832 days (approx) for you to own a bitcoin here (if you save all your monthly income)

[Agbe]

I was searching for Nigeria and finally I saw it but no data is inserted there. And currently in Nigeria the minimum wage is #30,000 which is equivalent to $38 and the inflation rate is much more higher than the minimum wage in the country so hunger is the talk of the day. A bag of rice is sold #40,000 ($50) and minimum wage is $38 so when the monthly salary his received by the workers they would used it to pay debt. Minimum wage in some country  is very small that the workers are not using it to do any better things in their lives but to pay debt and feeding.

[JayJuanGee]

[edited out]

Well yes, there are a lot of variables, different situations for everyone. Same as the OP, I just mentioned the somehow raw information in my thinking, without advanced numbers of factors and considering my own countries wealth system.
Of course we have to accept the fact that those are normalized figures as the countries wealth regulates the minimal wages regardless on is it realistic for a consumer or not. As individuals we should surely work on having a greater income if the conditions are favorable.

With the current price it does seem like an impossible mission to hold 1 Bitcoin or even to get close to that, but I like your thinking and I think it would be very motivating for everyone doubting the possibility of investing - like I do sometimes. Even though I earn about 60% more than minimal wage, I struggle to leave cash to invest - but your reply really motivated me to invest as much as I can. Even if it is currently just a few bucks, I will surely work on getting the head start that I need.

Well, I hope that you do figure out some kind of a way to figure out some kind of a reasonable balance that works for your in order that you are able to be as aggressive that you are able to be in terms of your bitcoin investment, but at the same time, not being so aggressive that you are not watching out for your own monthly expenses, including having some emergency funds available, because you should want to avoid dipping into your bitcoin investment, presuming that you start to build a BTC investment portfolio.

There are people who work their whole lives and never are able to get to fuck you status or even to a kind of comfortable ability to retire, and even if bitcoin does not completely bring you to fuck you status, it could end up giving you options to be able to supplement your income (and of course, there are no guarantees that bitcoin is going to perform better than any other investment options that are available to you). 

By the way.. think about it.  Even if you are able to put away 10% of your yearly income (and you believe that your yearly income is enough for you to live upon), it is going to take you right around 10 years to be able to put away a whole year's income.. and for sure, you are going to want anything that you invest into to be able to hold its value decently well, and hopefully even better than other options (alternatives) that you might have available. 

No one can guarantee that bitcoin will perform better, than options that you currently have available, but surely many folks do consider bitcoin to be amongst the best of asymmetric bets to the upside (if not the best).. so surely it could be helpful to figure out ways to invest into it.. and even perhaps increase your income in order that you can invest into it earlier.. and then hopefully all of that ends up paying off.. but you can also continue to learn about bitcoin and to study it and to maybe tweak some of your BTC accumulation and BTC maintenance strategies along the way.. while you continue to study it, and if you are ONLY putting $10 per week into bitcoin, you still might be better off then someone who had chosen not to invest into bitcoin... and yeah, even your options to avoid fees, (or to lessen fees) or ways that you choose to store your BTC so that you don't lose them, may well change over time, too.

[franky1]

even if a US min wage is $10, meaning a month(160 hours) is $1600 meaning 0.05479452
even if 3rdWLD min wage is $0.10, meaning a month(160 hours) is $16 meaning 0.00054794

if bitcoin 4x in a couple years both do not get 4x returns

this is because with a average 6800sat ($2 today. $8 later in tx fee)
3rdWLD withdraws only 0.00047994 from a cex
and then later deposits into a CEX 0.00041194
meaning 4x price would be $48 (25% loss due to fees of ~6800sat x2) instead of ~$64 expectation

where as US withdraws 0.05472652 from a cex
and then later deposits into a CEX 0.05465852
meaning 4x price would be $6384 (0.25% loss due to fees of ~6800sat x2) instead of ~$6400 expectation

[DaNNy001]

. 
No one can guarantee that bitcoin will perform better, than options that you currently have available, but surely many folks do consider bitcoin to be amongst the best of asymmetric bets to the upside (if not the best).. so surely it could be helpful to figure out ways to invest into it.. and even perhaps increase your income in order that you can invest into it earlier.. and then hopefully all of that ends up paying off.. but you can also continue to learn about bitcoin and to study it and to maybe tweak some of your BTC accumulation and BTC maintenance strategies along the way.. while you continue to study it, and if you are ONLY putting $10 per week into bitcoin, you still might be better off then someone who had chosen not to invest into bitcoin... and yeah, even your options to avoid fees, (or to lessen fees) or ways that you choose to store your BTC so that you don't lose them, may well change over time, too.

Even as no one can guarantee if Bitcoin is the best option for an investment but the masses still choose Bitcoin investment over all other options (altcoins) and if am to be specific, I myself will probably choose investing in Bitcoin than any other coins out there even if Bitcoin investment is something that has to do with patience and proper planning. Some folks actually choose investing in other coins just because of the high pump volume that most of these coins potray but some of these coins are just been pumped by their creator and most of them can can get your investment drained up when they start experience big dip because their capabilities to recover is at the very minimal where as Bitcoin is just quite the opposite.

[JayJuanGee]

No one can guarantee that bitcoin will perform better, than options that you currently have available, but surely many folks do consider bitcoin to be amongst the best of asymmetric bets to the upside (if not the best).. so surely it could be helpful to figure out ways to invest into it.. and even perhaps increase your income in order that you can invest into it earlier.. and then hopefully all of that ends up paying off.. but you can also continue to learn about bitcoin and to study it and to maybe tweak some of your BTC accumulation and BTC maintenance strategies along the way.. while you continue to study it, and if you are ONLY putting $10 per week into bitcoin, you still might be better off then someone who had chosen not to invest into bitcoin... and yeah, even your options to avoid fees, (or to lessen fees) or ways that you choose to store your BTC so that you don't lose them, may well change over time, too.

Even as no one can guarantee if Bitcoin is the best option for an investment but the masses still choose Bitcoin investment over all other options (altcoins)

For sure I was not even thinking about shitcoins as alternative investments, when I mentioned alternative investments I was thinking more in terms of traditional investments that people have such as property, equities, bonds or other cash equivalents, commodities, and so it is a pretty fucking BIG distraction if a lot of shitcoiners (maybe even you included) to be even going down the road to thinking that shitcoins are something that anyone should be investing into as if they were really any kind of a reasonable alternative to bitcoin.   Bitcoin is the leader of the space, so their is not need to invest into anything that is largely already dependent upon the BTC price, so why add more risk to anything that anyone does, so if someone is already having difficulties figuring out if they are even able to invest $10 per week into something or anything, then why the fuck would they even consider diluting that investment into shitcoins.

Focus on bitcoin first, it is not like they have a lot of money in the first place, and then maybe once they start to get  to the point of having 1/2 of a year or even a whole years income saved up, then maybe at that point, if they are still interested in fucking around with shitcoins or gambling with their investment portfolio, at least they can consider those kinds of possibilities based on their having had built up an investment portfolio.

and if am to be specific, I myself will probably choose investing in Bitcoin than any other coins out there even if Bitcoin investment is something that has to do with patience and proper planning. Some folks actually choose investing in other coins just because of the high pump volume that most of these coins potray but some of these coins are just been pumped by their creator and most of them can can get your investment drained up when they start experience big dip because their capabilities to recover is at the very minimal where as Bitcoin is just quite the opposite.

Yes, people can do whatever they like, and they get easily distracted into nonsense and gambling and perhaps believing that they are investing when they are gambling with shitcoins.  So yeah, if part of the topic of this thread is already describing situations in which normal (or poor or minimum wage) people are having troubles gathering enough of an income to invest into anything, then it seems way more important and practical to be focusing on their investment into something like bitcoin, rather than potentially diluting their investment, if they feel that they want to get distracted into nonsense and crap, and even though people do those kinds of things, it seems a bit of a distraction to be suggesting that I was even thinking about shitcoins in terms of what poor people should be considering - even though we know that shticoin pumpers and scammers have a lot of talking points to take advantage of the ignorances of people.. and even pray upon some of their desperations and desires to get rich quick or to get themselves out of their shitty financial circumstances.

[darkv0rt3x]

I'm not sure I understood the numbers.
For instance, for Luxemburg, it says 341. What does this mean? Is it that in less than a year, you can buy a Bitcoin if you invest all your minimum wage in Bitcoin? Or are there other figures uner the hood that I'm missing?

[Blitzboy]

[edited out]

Well yes, there are a lot of variables, different situations for everyone. Same as the OP, I just mentioned the somehow raw information in my thinking, without advanced numbers of factors and considering my own countries wealth system.
Of course we have to accept the fact that those are normalized figures as the countries wealth regulates the minimal wages regardless on is it realistic for a consumer or not. As individuals we should surely work on having a greater income if the conditions are favorable.

With the current price it does seem like an impossible mission to hold 1 Bitcoin or even to get close to that, but I like your thinking and I think it would be very motivating for everyone doubting the possibility of investing - like I do sometimes. Even though I earn about 60% more than minimal wage, I struggle to leave cash to invest - but your reply really motivated me to invest as much as I can. Even if it is currently just a few bucks, I will surely work on getting the head start that I need.

Well, I hope that you do figure out some kind of a way to figure out some kind of a reasonable balance that works for your in order that you are able to be as aggressive that you are able to be in terms of your bitcoin investment, but at the same time, not being so aggressive that you are not watching out for your own monthly expenses, including having some emergency funds available, because you should want to avoid dipping into your bitcoin investment, presuming that you start to build a BTC investment portfolio.

There are people who work their whole lives and never are able to get to fuck you status or even to a kind of comfortable ability to retire, and even if bitcoin does not completely bring you to fuck you status, it could end up giving you options to be able to supplement your income (and of course, there are no guarantees that bitcoin is going to perform better than any other investment options that are available to you). 

By the way.. think about it.  Even if you are able to put away 10% of your yearly income (and you believe that your yearly income is enough for you to live upon), it is going to take you right around 10 years to be able to put away a whole year's income.. and for sure, you are going to want anything that you invest into to be able to hold its value decently well, and hopefully even better than other options (alternatives) that you might have available. 

No one can guarantee that bitcoin will perform better, than options that you currently have available, but surely many folks do consider bitcoin to be amongst the best of asymmetric bets to the upside (if not the best).. so surely it could be helpful to figure out ways to invest into it.. and even perhaps increase your income in order that you can invest into it earlier.. and then hopefully all of that ends up paying off.. but you can also continue to learn about bitcoin and to study it and to maybe tweak some of your BTC accumulation and BTC maintenance strategies along the way.. while you continue to study it, and if you are ONLY putting $10 per week into bitcoin, you still might be better off then someone who had chosen not to invest into bitcoin... and yeah, even your options to avoid fees, (or to lessen fees) or ways that you choose to store your BTC so that you don't lose them, may well change over time, too.

When it comes to investing, and also when it comes to Bitcoin investing, having a balance, a true and reasonable and genuine balance, that works for you, yes for you, is pivotal, absolutely pivotal.

In terms of investments, including but not only limited to Bitcoin, you should never and definitely never overlook your monthly expenses, not even, or especially, emergency funds, for these are indeed necessary, quite necessary indeed. There are people, indeed many people, who never reach that so-called "fuck you status," which is certainly a status that many might wish for, and Bitcoin may, perhaps likely may, provide that for you, maybe.

Bitcoin might not be the golden ticket, but it might be something else entirely, perhaps a silver ticket, which could still be valuable, and perhaps even more so than something else, like other investment options. Yes, 10% of yearly income, maybe even 11%, could lead to something bigger, like a whole year's income in about 10 years, perhaps 9, or maybe 11.

[PeRo]

snip

Well, I hope that you do figure out some kind of a way to figure out some kind of a reasonable balance that works for your in order that you are able to be as aggressive that you are able to be in terms of your bitcoin investment, but at the same time, not being so aggressive that you are not watching out for your own monthly expenses, including having some emergency funds available, because you should want to avoid dipping into your bitcoin investment, presuming that you start to build a BTC investment portfolio.

There are people who work their whole lives and never are able to get to fuck you status or even to a kind of comfortable ability to retire, and even if bitcoin does not completely bring you to fuck you status, it could end up giving you options to be able to supplement your income (and of course, there are no guarantees that bitcoin is going to perform better than any other investment options that are available to you). 

By the way.. think about it.  Even if you are able to put away 10% of your yearly income (and you believe that your yearly income is enough for you to live upon), it is going to take you right around 10 years to be able to put away a whole year's income.. and for sure, you are going to want anything that you invest into to be able to hold its value decently well, and hopefully even better than other options (alternatives) that you might have available. 

No one can guarantee that bitcoin will perform better, than options that you currently have available, but surely many folks do consider bitcoin to be amongst the best of asymmetric bets to the upside (if not the best).. so surely it could be helpful to figure out ways to invest into it.. and even perhaps increase your income in order that you can invest into it earlier.. and then hopefully all of that ends up paying off.. but you can also continue to learn about bitcoin and to study it and to maybe tweak some of your BTC accumulation and BTC maintenance strategies along the way.. while you continue to study it, and if you are ONLY putting $10 per week into bitcoin, you still might be better off then someone who had chosen not to invest into bitcoin... and yeah, even your options to avoid fees, (or to lessen fees) or ways that you choose to store your BTC so that you don't lose them, may well change over time, too.

Of course, no matter the income there must be a balance between the money I need and the money I can invest.
For me personally, the biggest problem is that my income isn't a constant since I am self-employed (I own a startup business), so my income depends on how well did the company do last month - I could be on minimal wage or 2x the minimal wage sometimes (it can be stable, but a range always exists). That's also a big factor in investing, situations like mine can make a difference regardless of where your country is on the OP's list for an example.

Even if it isn't always smart, I'm very optimistic about Bitcoin and probably everyone else here should be. And I think it could help everyone's financial situation, even on the lower spectrum of the wealth table.
To not go much off topic, I think Bitcoin has a bright future and everyone that has the possibility to invest any amount from their income should do it. Like the saying, the best time to start is 10 years ago or right now (even with the smallest contribution you can give).

[JayJuanGee]

[edited out]

Of course, no matter the income there must be a balance between the money I need and the money I can invest.
For me personally, the biggest problem is that my income isn't a constant since I am self-employed (I own a startup business), so my income depends on how well did the company do last month - I could be on minimal wage or 2x the minimal wage sometimes (it can be stable, but a range always exists). That's also a big factor in investing, situations like mine can make a difference regardless of where your country is on the OP's list for an example.

Even if it isn't always smart, I'm very optimistic about Bitcoin and probably everyone else here should be. And I think it could help everyone's financial situation, even on the lower spectrum of the wealth table.
To not go much off topic, I think Bitcoin has a bright future and everyone that has the possibility to invest any amount from their income should do it. Like the saying, the best time to start is 10 years ago or right now (even with the smallest contribution you can give).

The more unstable/uncertain your income and your various expenses, then the more likely that you have to be careful in how much you might invest into BTC during each monthly period, but the mere fact that your income and/or expenses are erratic should not necessarily stop you from regularly investing, even if you might have some ups and downs in the amounts that you invest during any particular monthly period based on the erratic nature of your cashflow and/or expenses. 

It seems also that if your income/expenses are erratic, then you would need to maintain a larger emergency fund (or maybe you just might call it a cashflow stabilizing fund or a slush fund.. If you already know that your cashflow and/or expenses are erratic, then those shortages in discretionary cash would be part of the regular expectations, and not "emergencies."..  There are some people who contribute to their own emergencies by failing/refusing to adequately maintain sufficient levels of a cushion (or slush fund) that would account for variance in their discretionary cashflow.

[SmartGold01]

The more unstable/uncertain your income and your various expenses, then the more likely that you have to be careful in how much you might invest into BTC during each monthly period, but the mere fact that your income and/or expenses are erratic should not necessarily stop you from regularly investing, even if you might have some ups and downs in the amounts that you invest during any particular monthly period based on the erratic nature of your cashflow and/or expenses. 

It seems also that if your income/expenses are erratic, then you would need to maintain a larger emergency fund (or maybe you just might call it a cashflow stabilizing fund or a slush fund.. If you already know that your cashflow and/or expenses are erratic, then those shortages in discretionary cash would be part of the regular expectations, and not "emergencies."..  There are some people who contribute to their own emergencies by failing/refusing to adequately maintain sufficient levels of a cushion (or slush fund) that would account for variance in their discretionary cashflow.

Sorry to ask about this, sometimes when we talk of investment as the case may be it should be that is from part of our monthly income and yes this is absolutely true but what in a way we have one and two to three jobs do you advise putting either one to two portion into investment like buying bitcoin to hold?

I know this is the most difficult side to give some accurate answer but however it should depends on individuals, but wanting to hear from your side as a mentor what do you plead about this scenario as I believe any one who is directly involving in your discussion is gaining a great knowledge. Sometimes its very hard to maintain sufficient of cash flow maybe one can't predicts how often the job could last and if not a guaranteed work how could they manage to fill up the space or to execute their plans, and of which they had to pend for the main time and till the secured another job then continues their investment per say?

Sometimes in discussion like this it becomes an eyes opener to we that are upcoming, because knowledge is what we need to keep sustaining us especially those that are directly associated to this forum has a very big privilege to interact with people that are well known in this platform, despite we can't directly seat to speak with them we believe distance is not a barrier and through writing the communication is speedily passing through to everyone who comes across this thread and to this board. And again please do not find my question very nasty or silly in your sight as I believe this is the only way I can learn from you.

[JayJuanGee]

The more unstable/uncertain your income and your various expenses, then the more likely that you have to be careful in how much you might invest into BTC during each monthly period, but the mere fact that your income and/or expenses are erratic should not necessarily stop you from regularly investing, even if you might have some ups and downs in the amounts that you invest during any particular monthly period based on the erratic nature of your cashflow and/or expenses.  

It seems also that if your income/expenses are erratic, then you would need to maintain a larger emergency fund (or maybe you just might call it a cashflow stabilizing fund or a slush fund.. If you already know that your cashflow and/or expenses are erratic, then those shortages in discretionary cash would be part of the regular expectations, and not "emergencies."..  There are some people who contribute to their own emergencies by failing/refusing to adequately maintain sufficient levels of a cushion (or slush fund) that would account for variance in their discretionary cashflow.

Sorry to ask about this, sometimes when we talk of investment as the case may be it should be that is from part of our monthly income and yes this is absolutely true but what in a way we have one and two to three jobs do you advise putting either one to two portion into investment like buying bitcoin to hold?

You still need to look at all three of the income sources as a kind of package, and it is probably best to ONLY count on the most conservative angle of the income.. and the extent to which you create cushions out of the extra, might mean that you need to make sure that your cushion is adequately sufficient before you buy BTC with it (or engage in any other kinds of investments in which you don't want to be a forced seller at a time that is anything other than your own complete choosing).

Maybe an example would be good... and maybe let's say that your income can range anywhere between $300 and $1.2k per month, and you can look back historically at your income streams (and yeah, maybe some of the jobs are new, so you are not even exactly sure how well the history reflects what you are likely to make).

If you need $500 per month to live and to cover your various expenses, and you have pretty high confidence that you usually are able to bring in close to $600, you should still probably plan on the possibility that ONLY $300 might come in for that month, and maybe at minimum you have to have $1,200 in your reserve fund (which would be to cover the $200 per month difference of what you need and what you expect to come in), and more realistically your reserve fund should likely have enough to cover all of your living expenses for 6 months, which would be $3k.

So, maybe you start to buy BTC ONLY after you make sure that your reserve fund is sufficiently covered, and sure people will frequently be able to get away with living on the edges, and maybe they do not assure that their whole 6 months reserves are covered.. and also your 6 months reserve might not need to be in cash, you might have 2 or 3 months in cash and then another 3-4 months in some other kind of an asset that you know to be very liquid (hopefully not your bitcoin).

We know that people take a lot of risks in regards to various ways that they project out their cashflows, and they end up investing more than they are able to afford, and frequently emergencies (or shortages in cashflow can last way longer than 6 months, and maybe even last a year or two... so the extent to which you are able to project out your cashflows can be helpful in terms of figuring out various places in the future that you anticipate shortages in cashflow, and surely you have to be more specific about your cashflow projections when they are within that month or even 2-3 months into the future as compared with anticipated cashflows that might be 1-2 years out.

Personally, I use various Excel spreadsheets to project out cashflows, and I know that when I was younger my cashflows were way less complex, and of course, you can either create various versions of the Excel spreadsheet and you can save various drafts or even to rename your current working versions so that you end up retaining several copies that you are able to look up if you want to compare how you might have had been accounting for things at earlier dates.  Sometimes your formulas and methods will change over the years, so it might be difficult to look back at earlier versions and see the comparisons, but you still might be able to get some ideas of the important parts, even if your formulas and layout and even what you are tracking might end up changing with the passage of time.

I know this is the most difficult side to give some accurate answer but however it should depends on individuals, but wanting to hear from your side as a mentor what do you plead about this scenario as I believe any one who is directly involving in your discussion is gaining a great knowledge. Sometimes its very hard to maintain sufficient of cash flow maybe one can't predicts how often the job could last and if not a guaranteed work how could they manage to fill up the space or to execute their plans, and of which they had to pend for the main time and till the secured another job then continues their investment per say?

Yes, if you have possibilities of some or all of your income sources completely drying up, then you likely need to hold at least a decent amount of your minimum living expenses in reserve, and you should be attempting to prepare for the worse case scenarios to play out, and so you are able to invest once your reserves are sufficiently full, and like I mentioned, people do sometimes take risks in regards to NOT having their cashflows clear and/or not having enough reserves, but you are going to get royally fucked if you do not have enough of a cushion and your cashflows dry up and you are not able to somehow recover that cashflow with substitute work or whatever you might have thought would have had been your insufficient back-up plan.

I recall that I had a period in 2015 that I had a variety of extra expenses and some drying up of cashflow, so there were several months that I was not able to buy BTC (right during the better buying periods), and I recall that once my reserves started to get replenished by restoration of some of the cashflows and adjustment of the expenses, I would then buy BTC with any extra cashflow that came in.  So if $20 extra came in, then I would buy $10 worth of BTC and I would put the other $10 into my reserves, and then keep doing that through the whole month (or whatever period of time that I was using) and then reassess at the end of that period regarding whether any more of that extra income could be used to bitcoin, and it would usually be pretty clear regarding where I needed to put that money, and usually I was not able to buy bitcoin with it because my 50/50 allocation of the "extra cashflow" tended to be a pretty fair estimation regarding how much of that "extra cashflow" that I could spend on BTC.  

And, the main reason that I knew that money coming in was "extra cashflow" is because I had already projected out my various other cashflows, expenses, and the various cash cushions that I had already put in place and made sure that those amounts were adequate for the upcoming 6 months or so.. and even at that time (in 2015) I was projecting out 2 years in advance - even while knowing that the most important period of analysis frequently was to make sure that 1-3 months were sufficiently good and covered in order that I would not be stressing my self about making sure that everything was paid in the short-term... but that still does not necessarily mean that the longer term was sufficiently covered or secured beyond projecting out and having some expectations in place that were likely including the most likely accounting of the most conservative (or worse case) scenarios but also having some plans in place if better case (or even best case) scenarios ended up playing out.  

From my perspective, it seems to almost always be the case that preparations are still best done based on worser case scenarios rather than upon best case scenarios... and if the better case scenarios end up playing out there is a plan for that, even if they were not expected to need to happen in order to still be sufficiently comfortable and with fewer stresses.. and you should still be able to invest during these periods, even if you might have to bring your amounts down.. or maybe ONLY invest with the extra cash that comes in after accounting for your various expenses.

Sometimes in discussion like this it becomes an eyes opener to we that are upcoming, because knowledge is what we need to keep sustaining us especially those that are directly associated to this forum has a very big privilege to interact with people that are well known in this platform, despite we can't directly seat to speak with them we believe distance is not a barrier and through writing the communication is speedily passing through to everyone who comes across this thread and to this board. And again please do not find my question very nasty or silly in your sight as I believe this is the only way I can learn from you.

I don't mind sharing various ideas that I might have (and hopefully we have not deviated too much from the topic of this thread - even though we likely realize that it can be more difficult for people to invest into bitcoin or anything else when they might barely be making enough money to even pay for their basic monthly expenses), and other forum members will share their ideas, and with the passage of time, we are learning from each other and also learning from our own presentations of ideas.

Surely you likely realize that many of the better ways of learning have to do with putting ideas into practice, and so you can have back and forth with yourself and also back and forth with forum members (like me and others), and I have been projecting out my cashflows on paper for quite a bit of time (several years) before I started using Excel, and so you can project your cashflows out on paper, even though there may be a lot more redundancies.. or maybe you have sheets that reflect each month, and then you just keep building on those sheets.

Another thing that you can do, is that you can invest into bitcoin in a very conservative and modest way, and while you are figuring out various specifics (including perhaps building up your emergency fund, and coming to realistic realizations/expectations regarding the certainty of your various cashflows and expenses), you are going to be able to be more aggressive with your bitcoin investment once you make sure that you have your emergency funds sufficiently in place and in order, and after you have figured out various aspects of your cashflow and/or expenses.

This might be a good time to repeat what the various individual considerations should be...:

Quoting myself (I tend to use various formulations of these considerations):

When it comes to investing into BTC at minimum you should be attempting to consider your cashflow, how much bitcoin you have already accumulated, your other investments (including cash reserves), your view of bitcoin as compared with other investments, timeline, risk tolerance, and your time, skills, goals (investment/lifestyle targets, which includes figuring out the extent that you are in BTC accumulation, maintenance or liquidation stage) and your abilities to strategize, plan, research and learn along the way including tweaking strategies from time to time to consider trading, reallocating, use of leverage and/or financial instruments.

It can take a long time to figure out each and every one of the subcategories within the above-outlined individual considerations, yet no one has to figure them all out at one time or before getting started investing in bitcoin.. and accordingly any person could start by investing relatively small amounts or investing some amount that they believe to be reasonable and prudent - and continue to study their own circumstances along the way, and perhaps tweak their investing strategy from time to time along the way, as they are learning.

The first considerations, on the above list, are more basic, and the later considerations on the list are more advanced, so of course, on a personal level, each of us should be attempting to strive  to get the basics in order before getting into the more advanced strategies and techniques.

[SmartGold01]

Snip

Thank you for your indepth explanation as I believed that a great knowledge has been passed across, this doesn't limited to me but openly shared across for everyone to read and understand, and off course those who had the skill and passion of reading may definitely derived something from this great impartation as I believe most of the knowledge in no way can be found on article or youtube video.

Sincerely speaking I love steps of 50/50 buying strategies as that is the best and important way to keep stacking bitcoin and from my experience based on your explanation 2015 was actually a pretty cool time for one to had utilized the chances of accumulation and stacking. Apparently, 5 years time to come we could also say 2022, 23 where also a better time to buy and accumulates some volume of bitcoin but what I noticed mostly across is that the fear of uncertainty (they aren't futuristic) about the great effect of what it would likely turned out to be.

Most times this knowledge are being gotten to reshape and sharpen our ways of thinking and how we could see the future of where we are going or driving to because, if not hearing from an experience people like you we wouldn't know where to positioned ourselves and look at our standing ( as it would be very hard to make an adjustment whenever the time seems to be strong to retuned  back to the normal arms, as I believe time waits for no one and even if there where time, there may not be chance to meet with people that could give them what they needs to know just as you did).

And, aside that what we know is what we know and that keeps us moving and even if we think is too late for us to make adjustments to correct the hand of time let it be that.. people always arrived at the place they needed in their investment journey by take the bold steps or do I say risk because investment itself is a risk and off course this is true. Anyone who is out for investment should be able to connotes that all investment aren't risk free and hence, we should be able to cater for it because only risking oneself leads us to a successful investment.

I take typically example from you, then you still did maneuver to make sure you never missed your track and line of train as because you knew that something great would definitely be unveiled or unmasked from your journey so far and even as that you weren't in any way or any form being much desperate to have them sold for some muscle of dollars, and that is why we much learn to have patients and to always put our lights on into try to visualize our future, dreams and goals.

Thank you and love your heart felt explanation and in replication to your experience as well, because it's said when an experience people or teacher is teaching they teaches from their in-depth experience based on their personal encounter and or courage they had to go through the process, along the line vast of knowledge are being gotten.

[JayJuanGee]

Snip

Thank you for your indepth explanation as I believed that a great knowledge has been passed across, this doesn't limited to me but openly shared across for everyone to read and understand, and off course those who had the skill and passion of reading may definitely derived something from this great impartation as I believe most of the knowledge in no way can be found on article or youtube video.

Sincerely speaking I love steps of 50/50 buying strategies as that is the best and important way to keep stacking bitcoin and from my experience based on your explanation 2015 was actually a pretty cool time for one to had utilized the chances of accumulation and stacking. Apparently, 5 years time to come we could also say 2022, 23 where also a better time to buy and accumulates some volume of bitcoin but what I noticed mostly across is that the fear of uncertainty (they aren't futuristic) about the great effect of what it would likely turned out to be.

Sure maybe it seems like 2015 was a great time because we can see how it played out afterwards, but at the time, there were still needs to NOT overinvest, and to attempt to be sufficiently aggressive within some kind of a view of staying in the investment, but many people were telling me to sell or to give up or at least to stop buying during that period, and it ends up that they really did not know what they were talking about, and it is not that I actually knew what was going to happen, but I had a pretty good sense that even though I was investing somewhat aggressively, I was not investing more than I could afford to lose because I still had my expenses covered and I also had other non-bitcoin investments that I was tempted to put into bitcoin, but I had decided to just let those other investments ride... and just to keep doing what I was doing, which was buying BTC when I could with a certain amount of extra cashflow as it was coming in.

Now, if we consider 2022, 2023, then maybe we can see that those years look similar on the charts, and we cannot know whether 5-10 years or more that we are going to get substantial benefits from investing into bitcoin in 2022 and 2023, but we can still attempt to put a reasonable amount into BTC and maybe even attempt to be aggressive with our investment into BTC without becoming so overly aggressive that we end up recking ourselves if the market either turns against us or does not go up as much as we had hoped it to go up.

Most times this knowledge are being gotten to reshape and sharpen our ways of thinking and how we could see the future of where we are going or driving to because, if not hearing from an experience people like you we wouldn't know where to positioned ourselves and look at our standing ( as it would be very hard to make an adjustment whenever the time seems to be strong to retuned  back to the normal arms, as I believe time waits for no one and even if there where time, there may not be chance to meet with people that could give them what they needs to know just as you did).

I think that the point here is just to act rather than to do nothing, and surely there are still a lot of nocoiners and lowcoiners who are still failing/refusing to buy a sufficient/adequate quantity to prepare in case bitcoin goes up.. and yeah, it is not guaranteed that it will go up, but those people who do not buy any bitcoin or they are overly whimpy in their bitcoin investment, then they may well end up failing to receive profits (and options) further down the road, whether it is 5-10 years or some other later time period that it may well become impossible to even to purchase bitcoin in the 5 digits, let alone for under $30k.. but yeah, no one really knows, either.

And, aside that what we know is what we know and that keeps us moving and even if we think is too late for us to make adjustments to correct the hand of time let it be that.. people always arrived at the place they needed in their investment journey by take the bold steps or do I say risk because investment itself is a risk and off course this is true. Anyone who is out for investment should be able to connotes that all investment aren't risk free and hence, we should be able to cater for it because only risking oneself leads us to a successful investment.

I take typically example from you, then you still did maneuver to make sure you never missed your track and line of train as because you knew that something great would definitely be unveiled or unmasked from your journey so far and even as that you weren't in any way or any form being much desperate to have them sold for some muscle of dollars, and that is why we much learn to have patients and to always put our lights on into try to visualize our future, dreams and goals.

I still did not really know anything.. but I thought that it was a good idea to invest, even if it did not go up in value, I thought it was a good investment, but I never thought that it was guaranteed. and probably in the whole scheme of things, bitcoin is doing better today than I would have even imagined in 2014/2015/2016.  Sure there were bullish scenarios, but they still might not have had really high odds of playing out.

Thank you and love your heart felt explanation and in replication to your experience as well, because it's said when an experience people or teacher is teaching they teaches from their in-depth experience based on their personal encounter and or courage they had to go through the process, along the line vast of knowledge are being gotten.

It is true that if you go through various experiences, and you are attempting to actively engage (and this forum is one of the ways to continue to attempt to actively engage - apart from the actual ongoing investing into BTC too), then the variety of experiences do end up sinking in more deeply.. because there will be several personal stories along the way, and some of the stories are not even good.. some mistakes had been made, and maybe even some of the stories are painful to tell, too.. even though maybe also there can be some sense of luck and learning along the way, and also maybe taking additional safeguards to protect private keys.. it can be an ongoing learning process to hold bitcoin... and even some of the ways that people recommend security is still a work in progress, since there are a variety of ways to hold your bitcoin, so it may well not even be easy for someone active in forums like this, and not easy for grandma either..

[PeRo]

snip

The more unstable/uncertain your income and your various expenses, then the more likely that you have to be careful in how much you might invest into BTC during each monthly period, but the mere fact that your income and/or expenses are erratic should not necessarily stop you from regularly investing, even if you might have some ups and downs in the amounts that you invest during any particular monthly period based on the erratic nature of your cashflow and/or expenses. 

It seems also that if your income/expenses are erratic, then you would need to maintain a larger emergency fund (or maybe you just might call it a cashflow stabilizing fund or a slush fund.. If you already know that your cashflow and/or expenses are erratic, then those shortages in discretionary cash would be part of the regular expectations, and not "emergencies."..  There are some people who contribute to their own emergencies by failing/refusing to adequately maintain sufficient levels of a cushion (or slush fund) that would account for variance in their discretionary cashflow.

Fortunately in my case, my expenses are not as volatile or erratic as you say, so I pretty much know in advance what are my fixed costs of living. Of course, there are always variables and I take them into account so I do leave emergency funds when I can. Since I am organized, I am planning to invest every month at least - with any amount available.

On another note, problems for investors could be inflation as well. My country is in inflation but the government pretty much hides it and holds the currency artificially stable while the prices of pretty much everything goes up. It isn't as bad as some countries (that have a much greater inflation trend and their currency is going to be worth nothing), but it is enough to not exactly know what are you on for the next month or until your next pay date.

[JayJuanGee]

snip

The more unstable/uncertain your income and your various expenses, then the more likely that you have to be careful in how much you might invest into BTC during each monthly period, but the mere fact that your income and/or expenses are erratic should not necessarily stop you from regularly investing, even if you might have some ups and downs in the amounts that you invest during any particular monthly period based on the erratic nature of your cashflow and/or expenses.  

It seems also that if your income/expenses are erratic, then you would need to maintain a larger emergency fund (or maybe you just might call it a cashflow stabilizing fund or a slush fund.. If you already know that your cashflow and/or expenses are erratic, then those shortages in discretionary cash would be part of the regular expectations, and not "emergencies."..  There are some people who contribute to their own emergencies by failing/refusing to adequately maintain sufficient levels of a cushion (or slush fund) that would account for variance in their discretionary cashflow.

Fortunately in my case, my expenses are not as volatile or erratic as you say, so I pretty much know in advance what are my fixed costs of living. Of course, there are always variables and I take them into account so I do leave emergency funds when I can. Since I am organized, I am planning to invest every month at least - with any amount available.

On another note, problems for investors could be inflation as well. My country is in inflation but the government pretty much hides it and holds the currency artificially stable while the prices of pretty much everything goes up. It isn't as bad as some countries (that have a much greater inflation trend and their currency is going to be worth nothing), but it is enough to not exactly know what are you on for the next month or until your next pay date.

Well, I think that part of my point was to attempt to account for all the ways that variability can take place in the discretionary income that you would have left to invest into bitcoin or into any other investment, and of course here we are talking about bitcoin, and surely if you recognize that your local currency is not holding its value very well, then those kinds of calculations are likely going to affect how much cashflow that you believe that you are going to need when you are projecting out your expected income versus your expected expenses.. which would then cause you to make a judgement regarding how much you have left and is that amount sufficiently extra in order that you are not going to need it later, and if you come to that judgement that it is actually extra money, then you can invest that into bitcoin.

And, sure, I am already conceding that it is quite probable that the vast majority of normies do not engage in the kinds of calculations that I am suggesting (even when the start to invest into bitcoin), so they likely are engaging in some level of gambling, but they are likely going to be in a better position if they actually engage in a bit of a rigorous assessment in order to lessen and/or minimize the amount of risks that they are taking by making sure that their cashflow numbers add up, and once you build up a system in which you actually have a cash cushion that is projected out based on relatively conservative accounting of what are your expected incoming cashflow and your outgoing expenses, then you likely can get better assessments about how aggressive you can be in your bitcoin investing without crossing over the line into overly aggressive gambling.. and if you can see that the government is telling you that inflation is likely going to be 10% for the next 12 months, but you can already see that it is more likely going to be 20%, then you better be relying on your own judgement rather than relying on the government is not lying to you, this time (and I am not even anti-government but frequently incumbent officials have incentives to make things seem rosier than they actually are).

[Wiwo]

[quote author=PeRo

Well, I think that part of my point was to attempt to account for all the ways that variability can take place in the discretionary income that you would have left to invest into bitcoin or into any other investment, and of course here we are talking about bitcoin, and surely if you recognize that your local currency is not holding its value very well, then those kinds of calculations are likely going to affect how much cashflow that you believe that you are going to need when you are projecting out your expected income versus your expected expenses.. which would then cause you to make a judgement regarding how much you have left and is that amount sufficiently extra in order that you are not going to need it later, and if you come to that judgement that it is actually extra money, then you can invest that into bitcoin.

And, sure, I am already conceding that it is quite probable that the vast majority of normies do not engage in the kinds of calculations that I am suggesting (even when the start to invest into bitcoin), so they likely are engaging in some level of gambling, but they are likely going to be in a better position if they actually engage in a bit of a rigorous assessment in order to lessen and/or minimize the amount of risks that they are taking by making sure that their cashflow numbers add up, and once you build up a system in which you actually have a cash cushion that is projected out based on relatively conservative accounting of what are your expected incoming cashflow and your outgoing expenses, then you likely can get better assessments about how aggressive you can be in your bitcoin investing without crossing over the line into overly aggressive gambling.. and if you can see that the government is telling you that inflation is likely going to be 10% for the next 12 months, but you can already see that it is more likely going to be 20%, then you better be relying on your own judgement rather than relying on the government is not lying to you, this time (and I am not even anti-government but frequently incumbent officials have incentives to make things seem rosier than they actually are).

I agree with you to a large proportion because this scenario have played out in my financial life and bitcoin accumulations,  so that I set aside I higher percentage of my income into Bitcoin accumulation all through out 2021-2022 and in early 2023 I began to diversify into some other assets such as properties so as to create a none stop cash flow.

There are some time I set above 50% of my income into Bitcoin accumulation some where around 2022 and I intend to keep those Bitcoin for the long term but also making use of the volitilities to increase my profits merging.

E.g selling all the way up and buying all the way down,  but much also we have to realize and do risk assessment because such DCA approach have high risk.

[JayJuanGee]

[quote author=PeRo
Well, I think that part of my point was to attempt to account for all the ways that variability can take place in the discretionary income that you would have left to invest into bitcoin or into any other investment, and of course here we are talking about bitcoin, and surely if you recognize that your local currency is not holding its value very well, then those kinds of calculations are likely going to affect how much cashflow that you believe that you are going to need when you are projecting out your expected income versus your expected expenses.. which would then cause you to make a judgement regarding how much you have left and is that amount sufficiently extra in order that you are not going to need it later, and if you come to that judgement that it is actually extra money, then you can invest that into bitcoin.

And, sure, I am already conceding that it is quite probable that the vast majority of normies do not engage in the kinds of calculations that I am suggesting (even when the start to invest into bitcoin), so they likely are engaging in some level of gambling, but they are likely going to be in a better position if they actually engage in a bit of a rigorous assessment in order to lessen and/or minimize the amount of risks that they are taking by making sure that their cashflow numbers add up, and once you build up a system in which you actually have a cash cushion that is projected out based on relatively conservative accounting of what are your expected incoming cashflow and your outgoing expenses, then you likely can get better assessments about how aggressive you can be in your bitcoin investing without crossing over the line into overly aggressive gambling.. and if you can see that the government is telling you that inflation is likely going to be 10% for the next 12 months, but you can already see that it is more likely going to be 20%, then you better be relying on your own judgement rather than relying on the government is not lying to you, this time (and I am not even anti-government but frequently incumbent officials have incentives to make things seem rosier than they actually are).

I agree with you to a large proportion because this scenario have played out in my financial life and bitcoin accumulations,  so that I set aside I higher percentage of my income into Bitcoin accumulation all through out 2021-2022 and in early 2023 I began to diversify into some other assets such as properties so as to create a none stop cash flow.

There are some time I set above 50% of my income into Bitcoin accumulation some where around 2022 and I intend to keep those Bitcoin for the long term but also making use of the volitilities to increase my profits merging.

E.g selling all the way up and buying all the way down,  but much also we have to realize and do risk assessment because such DCA approach have high risk.

You seem to be describing something a bit different from what I started with, and that is the kind of grappling that anyone might have to do when they are trying to figure out the quantity of money that they are able to put into bitcoin without necessarily running the risk of overdoing it or even underdoing it because they had not sufficiently calculated their cashflows.   

So one thing is picking out how much to invest, and surely if you had been sometimes using up to 50% of your cashflow, then either the other 50% would have had to cover your monthly expenses or you might have had some kind of another money fund (such as extra or reserves) that you could draw upon in order to invest that amount.

And for sure one of the complications of bitcoin might have to do with how it's price could potentially rise really fast and then you might feel that you are overallocated into it, and maybe especially if you had not had any other investments, and perhaps in those kinds of circumstances it might start to feel prudent to diversify some of the value into other assets - and whether you sell from you BTC stash to accomplish such other investments or you merely divert your cashflow into those other investments that you would like to add are not always easy decisions.   

One of the difficult aspects of your own description of what you had been doing (and have done) is that if you had been investing fairly aggressively into bitcoin in 2021 and 2022, then you may well have ended up doing some front-loading of your investment attempts in the beginning, which may well have caused you to have had a decent amount of higher cost BTC in your portfolio, and so even if the BTC price came down a lot through most of 2022, especially starting in May 2022, you still may not have had been able to make up for your earlier higher cost investments, unless it happens to be the cased that you were less aggressive in 2021 and you ended up being lucky and able to be more aggressive after May of 2022 - and that just does not sound like a very plausible or likely scenario, which is part of the reason that I am suggesting that you would have had been lucky if the way that you ended up investing into bitcoin would have caused such a result that is contrary to what most enthusiastic newbies would have had been doing or even feeling inclined to do.

And another thing is that with such a short investment time horizon, it does not even seem reasonable and/or prudent to be diversifying out of bitcoin when bitcoin has not even appreciated that much and it may well even be the case that your BTC are in the negative or barely reaching break-even values in light of how much you would have had invested into BTC, perhaps over the past 2.5 years or so... unless you started earlier than that.. and of course, with our current BTC price scenario, it seems that those who were building their BTC holdings prior to 2021 (and who may had largely built most of the size of their BTC holdings prior to 2021) are likely in a much more comfortable place right now relative to those who started in 2021 or thereafter (perhaps absent those who started in around November 2022.. and surely again a seemingly kind of minority group.. and it would not even seem to be prudent for those who started since November 2022 to really have had enough time in the market to be exercising diversification of their holdings, yet).

In the end, surely people have to figure out how to do what they want and to have some kind of ideas about what they are doing and why they are doing it, so even though I have frequently said that diversification for the mere sake of diversity does not tend to be a good plan, especially for beginner investors, but surely once their investment size (whether assets within it have significantly appreciated or not) starts to grow to becomes a significant amount of their overall wealth.. maybe initially measuring from the size of their annual income.. so getting into the 30%-50% or even into the 1x to 2x sizes of their annual income, then it may well start to feel somewhat compelling (and even justifiable) to start to figure out ways to diversify the holdings, whether there are choices to sell some existing assets or perhaps the more common (and practical approach.. but these are still not absolutes because lump summing becomes and option for those who have built their investment portfolio) to start to divert new money into the new areas in which some exposure is desired.. and then start to build exposure to the new areas... and perhaps still keeping in mind that maybe the old area may still need some injections of new capital from time to time too so perhaps the value of each of the asset classes continue to grow and are monitored along the way.

[BitcSeo]

I did not see italy on the list?