[WARNING] Whirlwind.money - withdrawals are not being processed ⚠️

[jokers10]

Can someone confirm what "Anonymity set, 572user deposits" means?
Does this mean that currently, 572 users (addresses) have a deposit there? As far as I can see, the last deposit was 4 days ago, does that mean that nobody has used this mixer since then?

We can only assume so. This is a centralized service so all numbers it shows are numbers which owners of this service want to be shown. They can still get deposits and switch off the counter. So we can only assume that this number shows an actual amount of deposits in the system as it was explained by service representative. If it is true or if there are less or more active deposits, we can't be sure.

Some people said here they tried to withdraw their funds. And we don't know if their deposits still counted or not, even if a system still works and does it correctly as it was described.

So we can suppose that there are about "Anonymity set" number of active deposits, but we can't be sure.

[1714536365]

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[Rikafip]

Can someone confirm what "Anonymity set, 572user deposits" means?
Does this mean that currently, 572 users (addresses) have a deposit there? As far as I can see, the last deposit was 4 days ago, does that mean that nobody has used this mixer since then?

I always thought that number was the amount of deposits made so far and not that 572 users have deposits there.

[jokers10]

Can someone confirm what "Anonymity set, 572user deposits" means?
Does this mean that currently, 572 users (addresses) have a deposit there? As far as I can see, the last deposit was 4 days ago, does that mean that nobody has used this mixer since then?

I always thought that number was the amount of deposits made so far and not that 572 users have deposits there.

Yeap, another dimension of counting. As it was stated, it is a number of different addresses from which mixed bitcoins can be got. So you are right, we can't be sure that it is a number of active deposits. It can be probably an amount of made deposits, but it is not for sure.

[GazetaBitcoin]

If I understood correctly, I think that GazetaBitcoin left the campaign solely because of dissatisfaction with the work of Whirlwind. Lack of communication and unclear staking calculations as a main problems. Not because of moving to a better-paid campaign.

Actually no, things did not happen like that... By pure chance, I found a better opportunity at that moment and, by pure chance, it coincided with the moment when WW started to be exposed here... I was deceptioned, indeed, by the fact that they stopped replying to my emails for more than a month; by the fact that I had some days when the daily reward was not paid anymore (not even later through a compensation); and by the fact that they never came with that report I requested for the period of May 17th - June 14th, in order to check in how many of those days I actually received the reward.

So in all this context I was also looking for a better opportunity for renting my signature. It was only the chance that I left the campaign in the day of the penultimate payment made by Hhampuz. So when he made the last payment (2 days ago) I was out from the campaign for a week already.

[TryNinja]

Can someone confirm what "Anonymity set, 572user deposits" means?
Does this mean that currently, 572 users (addresses) have a deposit there? As far as I can see, the last deposit was 4 days ago, does that mean that nobody has used this mixer since then?

It theoretically means that they received a total of 572 deposits in their lifetime. Every new deposit = a new set. The number only goes up, so it doesn’t represente the “active deposits” since a withdrawal isn’t reflected in there.

Of course they could change the number at any time and even hide new deposits since every deposit goes to a brand new wallet.

It’s all speculation, but if they really decided to exit scam and leave the $40k behind, there is a chance someone deposited a big amount and they just unplugged everything to keep the coins. Remember that coins from big hacks and exploits were being mixed on CM, so there is a chance someone stole a couple mills and tried to mix them through whirlwind. (Pure speculation)

[decodx]

Yes. I mentioned the unrest here, together with the scam accusations starting to brew.

If that didn't persuade them to do something, then indeed we can talk about exit scam here. Someone who intends to continue business here would do everything in his power to sort the issues asap and not leave it like this.

I messaged them both through email and PM (those were the only ways I could reach out). However, they ignored all of my attempts at contact. Following that, I started this topic as a heads-up for the community and patiently waited for their reply. It was only when they didn't come through with the update they promised while talking to Hhampuz, and after another day had gone by, that I decided to create a flag and give them a negative tag. So yeah, they had plenty of time to say something, especially since they were chatting with the campaign manager in the meantime.

Can someone confirm what "Anonymity set, 572user deposits" means?
Does this mean that currently, 572 users (addresses) have a deposit there? As far as I can see, the last deposit was 4 days ago, does that mean that nobody has used this mixer since then?

That last deposit from four days ago was mine (unfortunately), and indeed, the counter increased by one after that. I am deposit number 572.

[hugeblack]

It’s all speculation, but if they really decided to exit scam and leave the $40k behind, there is a chance someone deposited a big amount and they just unplugged everything to keep the coins. Remember that coins from big hacks and exploits were being mixed on CM, so there is a chance someone stole a couple mills and tried to mix them through whirlwind. (Pure speculation)

Discussions about the mixing service started on August 9th and so far there is no warning that there are problems with the withdrawal, @sam00 was the first one to report about withdrawal problems and from that date the number of people who deposited is very small although there was no warning about withdrawals problems on WWM (and still).

this means that Promotion of the service was not enough, and until now, unlike the members of the signatory campaign (most of whom did not make withdrawals), no one reported about loss.

I seriously began to think WWM was dead for a while and their budget was limited for about 3-4 months, so I believe that scam is about 3 bitcoins or less than half a million dollars.
The thing I didn't understand was why they didn't ask to withdraw the $40,000 a while ago?

[notblox1]

I was one of those members. I doubt anyone left because they were feeling a scam… most, myself included, moved to MixTum because they had a better deal.

I hope this turns out better for you, but it is another mixer so be careful 

If they decided to leave those 40k, wouldn't that mean that people deposited more than that + what sig campaign members didn't withdraw? If not, then it would make more sense to pay out everyone what is owed and take that 40k.

I dont think they planed exit scam from start, but things didnt go exactly how they expected and they didnt have enough patients to wait.
It is naive to think that any business can be profitable and gain huge popularity in anything in few months up to a year.
And who knows, maybe they do come back at some point, that would be interesting to see.

I was deceptioned, indeed, by the fact that they stopped replying to my emails for more than a month; by the fact that I had some days when the daily reward was not paid anymore (not even later through a compensation); and by the fact that they never came with that report I requested for the period of May 17th - June 14th, in order to check in how many of those days I actually received the reward.

Strange how only a few people noticed they simply vanished from forum several months ago.
This is first alarm that something is not right, than email reply problems, rewards, and now nothing works except depositing.

[LoyceV]

They agreed to a 7 day delay. They couldn't withdraw from escrow to pull an exit scam.

If they decided to leave those 40k, wouldn't that mean that people deposited more than that + what sig campaign members didn't withdraw?

That would be my guess. But we can't know for sure how much was deposited by themselves, and how much came from customers.

I am trying to figure out what we could have learned from this.

Shall a signature wearer not use the service he was advertising (namely: transfer any amount out of it asap because of NYKNYC)?
Shall a signature wearer use the service and be fully accountable, in a harsh way, for any losses?

It starts by not advertising a service you don't trust. And if you do trust it, you can just use it. Why would you recommend others to use something you wouldn't trust with your own money?

Maybe a new "standard" of a reputable escrow should be initiated for any sig campaign? This has obvious implications for anyone willing to start a new one for the associated cost. And also maybe for the escrow.

That's up to each campaign, and between the campaign and it's participants. As long as people are willing to join, there's no reason for them to change anything.

[notblox1]

It starts by not advertising a service you don't trust. And if you do trust it, you can just use it. Why would you recommend others to use something you wouldn't trust with your own money?

LoyceV, are you using Agora Desk exchange? 
In perfect situation it would be best to advertise only services we use, but that is not happening always.
I dont think this is happening in real world outside bitcointalk, people advertise lot of junk all the time because someone pays them to make youtube video for that product ot service.

I hear that manager who managed whirlwind campaign quickly refunded loses to bitcointalk members who participated in campaign, well done.
decodx is there any chance for you to get your coins back?

[LoyceV]

It starts by not advertising a service you don't trust. And if you do trust it, you can just use it. Why would you recommend others to use something you wouldn't trust with your own money?

LoyceV, are you using Agora Desk exchange?  

I don't have a need to exchange funds, so that wouldn't make sense. But I haven't seen a reason not to trust them.
I know this isn't perfect, and the signs weren't that obvious in WWM's case either. But there are many more obvious cases that are still being advertised in signature campaigns, which is the reason I wrote that.

I dont think this is happening in real world outside bitcointalk, people advertise lot of junk all the time because someone pays them to make youtube video for that product ot service.

Not only on Youtube, it's totally normal on TV, internet and in newspapers too. Only when some scandal hits the media, they suddenly start a boycot to rescue their image use the free publicity. Other than that, it's all about the money.
But newspapers don't need to keep much of an image. I like to think we could be different.

You mean that you never sell or buy bitcoin? 

Not P2P I'll stop being off-topic here.

[notblox1]

I don't have a need to exchange funds, so that wouldn't make sense. But I haven't seen a reason not to trust them.

You mean that you never sell or buy bitcoin? 

Not only on Youtube, it's totally normal on TV, internet and in newspapers too. Only when some scandal hits the media, they suddenly start a boycot to rescue their image use the free publicity. Other than that, it's all about the money.
But newspapers don't need to keep much of an image. I like to think we could be different.

I just gave one example of youtube but I know advertising scheme is the same everywhere, maybe they only target different customers.
Companies in bitcointalk forum are targeting people who use bitcoin, but we never know who can turn into scam or they just shutdown business without explanation.
In recent months first it was betnomi casino and now whirlwind. 
 

[fillippone]

It starts by not advertising a service you don't trust. And if you do trust it, you can just use it. Why would you recommend others to use something you wouldn't trust with your own money?

Makes sense. For this reason I used and tested the service myself a few times mixing my own sats. Also for this reason I didn’t rush to withdraw all my weekly signature gains. I left those in the “mining campaign”, and not only for the 12%, but just because I wanted to “believe” in the service I was advertising.

I tend to believe in the services I advertise, this is my rule. Even if I think signature wearer have by no mean any responsibility if the advertised service turns out to be fraudulent.

[Nwada001]

Makes sense. For this reason I used and tested the service myself a few times mixing my own sats. Also for this reason I didn’t rush to withdraw all my weekly signature gains. I left those in the “mining campaign”, and not only for the 12%, but just because I wanted to “believe” in the service I was advertising.

I tend to believe in the services I advertise, this is my rule. Even if I think signature wearer have by no mean any responsibility if the advertised service turns out to be fraudulent.

To some point, I believe, one just needs to test the service of what they are advitizing, even if it's not made compulsory out of their own will, as it will go a long way at least if a question is being raised upon the project on one's signature, the person can be able to explain properly if it works.

I was a victim of such a case where, when I was part of the campaign on the Full-member rank, I tumbled upon a thread that was talking about Mixers. When I dropped my explanation based on what I believed it was, I was corrected by a member of the forum, and the statement ended with "It even know about what you are advertising." That was when I took it upon myself to test the service myself to know how things worked.

This was before the 12% APR was added as part of the feature, and lucky for me, I don't have any funds in there. as the aim of using it was just to test the service mixing and withdrawal procedures.

[fillippone]

To some point, I believe, one just needs to test the service of what they are advitizing, even if it's not made compulsory out of their own will, as it will go a long way at least if a question is being raised upon the project on one's signature, the person can be able to explain properly if it works.

This.
Wearing a signature doesn’t imply full endorsement of the underlying service, or makes the wearer part of the support team, but I guess every signature bearer should have a basic understanding of the service they are advertising, with a minimal idea of the peculiar feature.

[DireWolfM14]

Wearing a signature doesn’t imply full endorsement of the underlying service,

Sorry man, but this sounds like gas-lighting and deflection.  To be honest, I don't care.  You can use whatever logic or philosophical gymnastics you want to excuse and justify the signature you wear, that's not my point.  I've worn signatures for two mixing services so far during my tenure here, both ended up shutting down due to seizures or fear of such.  I've yet to advertise any scams thankfully, but in retrospect, how could I have known before hand?  The truth of the matter is that any centralized mixing service is shady by design, and needs to be if the operators are to maintain their own security and privacy.  That alone makes them among the services most likely to exit scam.  They have little to no incentive preventing them from pulling an exit scam, and if the feds start sniffing closer, it might be the only way to avoid prosecution.  That doesn't even take into account whether the service is pulling a profit or not.

What's ironic is that whirlwind seemed like the most legit mixer to pop up in the post CM days, yet here we are.

I'm not saying people should stop advertising mixing services, but if you do don't spread the BS too thickly, it starts to stink.

[fillippone]

Wearing a signature doesn’t imply full endorsement of the underlying service,

Sorry man, but this sounds like gas-lighting and deflection.  To be honest, I don't care.  You can use whatever logic or philosophical gymnastics you want to excuse and justify the signature you wear, that's not my point.

We are all grown up adult here. Financially sovereign individuals. If anyone falls into a scam, it their sole responsibility.
As a member of a very loyal community, I will do what I can to avoid anyone falling into a scam, included thoughtfully testing the service I advertise. But in the end, the above sentence still stands.

 What's ironic is that whirlwind seemed like the most legit mixer to pop up in the post CM days, yet here we are.

This is very true and I also felt they were somehow, tied.
I was wrong, apparently.

[BenCodie]

I knew something was fishy the moment that I saw the "anonymity mining" campaign...and the lack of information about who exactly was controlling the multi signature keys.

As for the signature campaign and level of responsibility...DireWolf and Fillipone, you are both right. The problem is that the forum has not chosen what way we want to go as a community. We have had bounty campaigns advertise multi million dollar scams, services promoted by users who scam similar amounts, etc. The fact is that there is no ruling or guideline that one must follow to ensure that they are not promoting a service with red flags.

There definitely needs to be more work in ensuring that both campaign operators and participants aren't promoting a current or future scam. A constant oversight/oversight group between the campaign manager, project admin and group won't stop the problem but it might catch it sooner, while ensuring the campaign manager's innocence IF something goes wrong later.

I'm sure with more brainstorming a solution could be created...but, just like the cyber security and privacy board, I doubt that the need will be fulfilled.

[Poker Player]

There definitely needs to be more work in ensuring that both campaign operators and participants aren't promoting a current or future scam.

I don't know what work you expect to be done when the very majority opinion of DTs is that only when you have hard evidence beyond reasonable doubt is when you should red paint a profile. The scam is only red painted a posteriori, when it is already evident that it has occurred. If you add to that the fact that the scammer spends his money in promoting his project here, nobody will bite the hand that feeds him.

There is not going to be anything that can be done from the forum beforehand to prevent if someone plans to scam with a bit of brains. It is only to be verified a posteriori, when it has already taken place.

I also don't think it would achieve much if people would agree to act more preventively with the trust system, especially if the scammer invests money promoting the project on the forum and also with a bit of brains.  

[jokers10]

I knew something was fishy the moment that I saw the "anonymity mining" campaign...and the lack of information about who exactly was controlling the multi signature keys.
...
I'm sure with more brainstorming a solution could be created...but, just like the cyber security and privacy board, I doubt that the need will be fulfilled.

I don't know how is it expected to be done. I remember such scam projects as Miracle Tele and Tartaria, they had officially registered companies, with all entries in the registers, their CEOs appeared everywhere in person and made videos. And anyway they were made to scam.

As for mixers, such projects are made for anonymity and anonymity of devs could be expected as additional level of anonymity. So how can we know?

Anonymity mining was suspicios, but if a project wanted to get more users to become bigger and more competitive it could be done the same way, so it was not a 100% guarantee of scam.

Sometimes things are obvious: stolen WP, fake team, etc. And we see that these cases are usually found really soon. But as for others... I don't know how we can be sure.