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Rassah
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December 19, 2011, 07:21:19 PM
 #41

I see, seems like you guys have it together. A fascinating idea.

Actually, the Lifeboats idea doesn't even use aquaculture.  They intend to use hydoponics.

I tried hydroponics once. Ended up with a watermelon 2.5 inches in diameter that was almost all core. It was FAIL.

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December 20, 2011, 04:05:15 AM
 #42

So what do seasteaders envision in the far future? Will a subset of humans evolve to be marine mammals in the same vein as dolphins, seals, etc?
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December 20, 2011, 04:15:28 AM
 #43

why? It seems foolish and impractical to live on the water.


Because you do not have to pay taxes and join military forces that you disagree with?

Lots of places where taxes are minimal and there is no military obligation.  $1 mil retirement fund would last a lot longer in a country like Belize then in some high sea adventure where the cost of everything is increased by 100% to 20,000%.
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December 20, 2011, 06:02:16 AM
 #44

why? It seems foolish and impractical to live on the water.


Because you do not have to pay taxes and join military forces that you disagree with?

Lots of places where taxes are minimal and there is no military obligation.  $1 mil retirement fund would last a lot longer in a country like Belize then in some high sea adventure where the cost of everything is increased by 100% to 20,000%.

What if I don't like Belize?

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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December 20, 2011, 06:06:09 AM
 #45

why? It seems foolish and impractical to live on the water.


Because you do not have to pay taxes and join military forces that you disagree with?

Lots of places where taxes are minimal and there is no military obligation.  $1 mil retirement fund would last a lot longer in a country like Belize then in some high sea adventure where the cost of everything is increased by 100% to 20,000%.

What if I don't like Belize?
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December 20, 2011, 02:18:53 PM
 #46

why? It seems foolish and impractical to live on the water.


Because you do not have to pay taxes and join military forces that you disagree with?

Lots of places where taxes are minimal and there is no military obligation.  $1 mil retirement fund would last a lot longer in a country like Belize then in some high sea adventure where the cost of everything is increased by 100% to 20,000%.

What if I don't like Belize?

What if I want to live in a country full of rich people, which resembles a floating resort, has no laws or taxes, and lets me do whatever I want as long as I'm not hurting my neighbors?

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December 20, 2011, 02:21:28 PM
 #47

why? It seems foolish and impractical to live on the water.


Because you do not have to pay taxes and join military forces that you disagree with?

Lots of places where taxes are minimal and there is no military obligation.  $1 mil retirement fund would last a lot longer in a country like Belize then in some high sea adventure where the cost of everything is increased by 100% to 20,000%.

What if I don't like Belize?

What if I want to live in a country full of rich people, which resembles a floating resort, has no laws or taxes, and lets me do whatever I want as long as I'm not hurting my neighbors?

How are you going to achieve both?  Either you can hurt your neighbors or there has to be some system of laws (maybe simplified, maybe mutually agreed upon).  Otherwise it is simply might makes right and if you have enough might you can hurt your neighbor.

Still if you want a rich floating city go ahead however I think many are underestimating the costs involved.  Everything is expensive at sea.  Water, fuel, electricity, food, replacement parts, maintenance, etc.
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December 20, 2011, 06:21:54 PM
 #48

why? It seems foolish and impractical to live on the water.


Because you do not have to pay taxes and join military forces that you disagree with?

Lots of places where taxes are minimal and there is no military obligation.  $1 mil retirement fund would last a lot longer in a country like Belize then in some high sea adventure where the cost of everything is increased by 100% to 20,000%.

What if I don't like Belize?

What if I want to live in a country full of rich people, which resembles a floating resort, has no laws or taxes, and lets me do whatever I want as long as I'm not hurting my neighbors?

How are you going to achieve both?  Either you can hurt your neighbors or there has to be some system of laws (maybe simplified, maybe mutually agreed upon).  Otherwise it is simply might makes right and if you have enough might you can hurt your neighbor.

There would be no manmade statutes.  The natural laws apply, and maybe a couple of extra laws agreed upon by all members prior to entry to protect the society at large.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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December 20, 2011, 06:53:21 PM
 #49

There would be no manmade statutes.  The natural laws apply, and maybe a couple of extra laws agreed upon by all members prior to entry to protect the society at large.

Which would be very similar to a state.  Much like if you wish to immigrate to the US you need to accept the extra laws agreed upon by members to protect the society.  I grant you the US has law too many laws and thus too high of a regulatory cost (both in taxes and stiffled freedom) but you are merely talking about differences in scale.

Granted in a smaller society you can get away with less laws/rules and operate by consensus but the idea that it isn't a manmade state is of dubious value.  The point was the "no laws" and "neighbors can't hurt neighbors" are mutually exclusive.  As the number of people grows the likelihood you can operate by consensus is slim.  Say everyone except one person in community wishes to prohibit sex with a minor under age of 14.  Going to accept non-consensus and 99.9% rule?  Well you just introduced voting and non-consensus laws.  
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December 20, 2011, 08:03:08 PM
 #50

Why can't it be "no laws" and "neighbor CAN hurt neighbor?" It just keeps going until all the bothersome aholes are shot, deported, or leave on their own. Trolling and being swamped with annoying people doesn't work when there are real life consequences involved.
Regarding the person having sex with a minor, if:
* They can defend themselves
* I believe they are too much of a risk and trouble for me to interfere with
* They believe the trouble of keeping it all secret, or not being able to do business with most people, is worth having sex with a 14 year year old
Then I guess they will be able to get away with it. Just as it happens now.

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December 20, 2011, 08:11:33 PM
 #51

Why can't it be "no laws" and "neighbor CAN hurt neighbor?" It just keeps going until all the bothersome aholes are shot, deported, or leave on their own. Trolling and being swamped with annoying people doesn't work when there are real life consequences involved.
Regarding the person having sex with a minor, if:
* They can defend themselves
* I believe they are too much of a risk and trouble for me to interfere with
* They believe the trouble of keeping it all secret, or not being able to do business with most people, is worth having sex with a 14 year year old
Then I guess they will be able to get away with it. Just as it happens now.

What if the one wanting to hurt the neighbor has the biggest guns?  Not saying that isn't acceptable but pretending you can both have no laws and assurance that neighbors don't hurt neighbors is naive.
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December 20, 2011, 08:20:14 PM
 #52

Why can't it be "no laws" and "neighbor CAN hurt neighbor?" It just keeps going until all the bothersome aholes are shot, deported, or leave on their own. Trolling and being swamped with annoying people doesn't work when there are real life consequences involved.
Regarding the person having sex with a minor, if:
* They can defend themselves
* I believe they are too much of a risk and trouble for me to interfere with
* They believe the trouble of keeping it all secret, or not being able to do business with most people, is worth having sex with a 14 year year old
Then I guess they will be able to get away with it. Just as it happens now.

What if the one wanting to hurt the neighbor has the biggest guns?  Not saying that isn't acceptable but pretending you can both have no laws and assurance that neighbors don't hurt neighbors is naive.

Then he will hurt the neighbor. Who ever said there are any assurances? What assurances do you have that one of your neighbors won't shoot you tomorrow?

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December 20, 2011, 08:26:02 PM
 #53

What if I want to live in a country full of rich people, which resembles a floating resort, has no laws or taxes, and lets me do whatever I want as long as I'm not hurting my neighbors?

How are you going to achieve both?  Either you can hurt your neighbors or there has to be some system of laws (maybe simplified, maybe mutually agreed upon).  Otherwise it is simply might makes right and if you have enough might you can hurt your neighbor.
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December 20, 2011, 11:49:59 PM
 #54

Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing.

-Helen Keller

Read more: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/h/helenkelle121787.html#ixzz1h7cYSV3Q


"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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December 21, 2011, 12:30:24 AM
 #55

Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing.

-Helen Keller

Read more: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/h/helenkelle121787.html#ixzz1h7cYSV3Q



Read more quotes from a socialist? Tongue

edit: Here, have a quote.

"Until the great mass of the people shall be filled with the sense of responsibility for each other's welfare, social justice can never be attained."

-Helen Keller

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December 21, 2011, 02:27:16 AM
 #56

Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing.

-Helen Keller

Read more: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/h/helenkelle121787.html#ixzz1h7cYSV3Q



Read more quotes from a socialist? Tongue

edit: Here, have a quote.

"Until the great mass of the people shall be filled with the sense of responsibility for each other's welfare, social justice can never be attained."

-Helen Keller

It was an obvious truth, stated well, by someone who knows that subject more than the rest of us.  Helen Keller undoubtedly was an expert on the falsehoods of security, for she had none except for what was provided for her by others.  Just because she was insightful in this topic, doesn't imply that she was equally insightful in others.  Likewise, the Unibomber made some good points in his manifesto and he was  a homicidal nutjob; but the fact that he was a homicidal nutjob doesn't necessarily detract from his other insights.  There are many other current examples that comes to mind straight away, such as Occupy Wall Street and Glen Beck.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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December 21, 2011, 02:49:18 AM
 #57

Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing.

-Helen Keller

Read more: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/h/helenkelle121787.html#ixzz1h7cYSV3Q



Read more quotes from a socialist? Tongue

edit: Here, have a quote.

"Until the great mass of the people shall be filled with the sense of responsibility for each other's welfare, social justice can never be attained."

-Helen Keller

It was an obvious truth, stated well, by someone who knows that subject more than the rest of us.  Helen Keller undoubtedly was an expert on the falsehoods of security, for she had none except for what was provided for her by others.  Just because she was insightful in this topic, doesn't imply that she was equally insightful in others.  Likewise, the Unibomber made some good points in his manifesto and he was  a homicidal nutjob; but the fact that he was a homicidal nutjob doesn't necessarily detract from his other insights.  There are many other current examples that comes to mind straight away, such as Occupy Wall Street and Glen Beck.

I know that; I'm just poking fun at you. Tongue

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December 21, 2011, 07:48:43 AM
 #58

Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing.

-Helen Keller

Read more: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/h/helenkelle121787.html#ixzz1h7cYSV3Q



Read more quotes from a socialist? Tongue

edit: Here, have a quote.

"Until the great mass of the people shall be filled with the sense of responsibility for each other's welfare, social justice can never be attained."

-Helen Keller

It was an obvious truth, stated well, by someone who knows that subject more than the rest of us.  Helen Keller undoubtedly was an expert on the falsehoods of security, for she had none except for what was provided for her by others.  Just because she was insightful in this topic, doesn't imply that she was equally insightful in others.  Likewise, the Unibomber made some good points in his manifesto and he was  a homicidal nutjob; but the fact that he was a homicidal nutjob doesn't necessarily detract from his other insights.  There are many other current examples that comes to mind straight away, such as Occupy Wall Street and Glen Beck.

I know that; I'm just poking fun at you. Tongue

Try to be a little more obvious.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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December 21, 2011, 09:19:52 AM
 #59

I haven't managed to read the entire discussion, only OP, so sorry if I repeat something here.

First, shouldn't this topic be taken to TSI's forum? http://seasteading.org/community/forums

Now, about OP, I don't like the nomadic nature of the proposition. Not having a fixed place makes many things too complicated. The main advantage I see is that you may try to run away from bad weather, but that also probably means that eventually you'll have to enter protected, territorial waters for that reason, and then your independence is gone.
It's better if you can resist bad weather, even on the deep ocean. But that's not for small ships. Even big ships shake as hell during a storm. As far as I've read on TSI's forum only semi-submersible or fully submersible structures can endure huge waves "calmly". Semi-submersibles (platforms) are very expensive, and submersibles are not... "conventional", but many people support it as the best way to go for seasteading: http://seasteading.org/interact/forums/research/engineering/permanently-submerged-concrete-structures-living-space-bubble-c

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December 21, 2011, 09:26:15 AM
 #60

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