Tornado cash founders charged with money laundering/sanctions violations

[bbc.reporter]

At the end of the day, you just get to realize that law is something which can change anytime depending on the leader.

Constitution changes very easily and that's terrible.

The laws are made and changed by the party that has a good majority in parliament and that's why it can happen that they change back and forth by interest (usually political interest).
The constitution is significantly more difficult to change. However, while in some other countries popular referendum is needed for it, in the US "only" 3/4 of states/state legislatures need to approve it (maybe somewhat easier, but still not easy).
This being said, I think that @Synchronice has made a confusion here.

Also, changing the constitution is a national issue. The politicians who will be supportive and arguing for the change will certainly experience a negative response from the opposition and also possibly from their own allies in congress and the senate or if a unicameral form of legislative system, the parliament.

I also want to say sorry to @Synchronice. He might have implied that the policies of an administration can change easily which is arguably true. We have witnessed these changes from the Biden administration to the Donald's administration.

[Synchronice]

At the end of the day, you just get to realize that law is something which can change anytime depending on the leader.

Constitution changes very easily and that's terrible.

The laws are made and changed by the party that has a good majority in parliament and that's why it can happen that they change back and forth by interest (usually political interest).
The constitution is significantly more difficult to change. However, while in some other countries popular referendum is needed for it, in the US "only" 3/4 of states/state legislatures need to approve it (maybe somewhat easier, but still not easy).
This being said, I think that @Synchronice has made a confusion here.

Also, changing the constitution is a national issue. The politicians who will be supportive and arguing for the change will certainly experience a negative response from the opposition and also possibly from their own allies in congress and the senate or if a unicameral form of legislative system, the parliament.

I also want to say sorry to @Synchronice. He might have implied that the policies of an administration can change easily which is arguably true. We have witnessed these changes from the Biden administration to the Donald's administration.

Yes, the policies of an administration can change easily, that's what I wanted to say but I also wanted to really mean it that constitution changes easily. When I say easy, I don't mean it to be as easy as policies of administration but if we keep in mind how strong it should be, then it changes easily. Trump is joking about running for a 3rd term. I'm afraid this joke will become reality (strangely, these people live a long life).
Putin changed that policy easily. I hope that it won't change in the USA, it's a very serious policy that should never be abused.

[bbc.reporter]

After the most recent news update in this thread which made me speculate that a settlement might not anymore be possible, this new news update is presently making me speculate that a settlement might again be possible heheheh.

The trial will be on July 14. There will be much time for pretrial arguments from Roman's lawyers.



Roman Storm’s legal team is accusing federal prosecutors of misleading the court about how US law treats noncustodial crypto mixers.

His lawyers cited newly surfaced details from a related case against Samourai Wallet developers.

In a motion filed on Friday, Storm’s lawyers argue that prosecutors withheld key communications with the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network that could undermine the government’s central claim that Tornado Cash operated as an unlicensed money transmitting business under US law.

Storm’s team is now asking the court to compel the government to disclose all communications with FinCEN and turn over related materials from the Samourai Wallet case.

His trial is scheduled for July 14.

Read in full https://www.dlnews.com/articles/regulation/tornado-cash-says-prosecutors-misled-court-crypto-mixer-laws/

[arabspaceship123]

Biden didn't help crypto. Trump pardoned Ross Ulbricht. He's going to make crypto important during his term but his policies can change. If they reverse crypto rules they're going to hurt ppl who've invested savings in crypto.

Yes, the policies of an administration can change easily, that's what I wanted to say but I also wanted to really mean it that constitution changes easily. When I say easy, I don't mean it to be as easy as policies of administration but if we keep in mind how strong it should be, then it changes easily. Trump is joking about running for a 3rd term. I'm afraid this joke will become reality (strangely, these people live a long life).
Putin changed that policy easily. I hope that it won't change in the USA, it's a very serious policy that should never be abused.

[bbc.reporter]

@Synchronice. On you arguing that Trump running for a 3rd term becoming real, based on your other argument that the constitution changes easily, I am very much sorry to say again that this is where people are being ignorant. This is not a policy from the executive department where the can change it by issuing another executive order. These rules are part of the constitution of a country that can only be changed in a bicameral congress with 2 chambers. It will certainly not be easy to change. They will not try to propose a change because they know it will not pass the first reading.

[Synchronice]

Biden didn't help crypto. Trump pardoned Ross Ulbricht. He's going to make crypto important during his term but his policies can change. If they reverse crypto rules they're going to hurt ppl who've invested savings in crypto.

Yes, the policies of an administration can change easily, that's what I wanted to say but I also wanted to really mean it that constitution changes easily. When I say easy, I don't mean it to be as easy as policies of administration but if we keep in mind how strong it should be, then it changes easily. Trump is joking about running for a 3rd term. I'm afraid this joke will become reality (strangely, these people live a long life).
Putin changed that policy easily. I hope that it won't change in the USA, it's a very serious policy that should never be abused.

What your reply has to do with my post?

@Synchronice. On you arguing that Trump running for a 3rd term becoming real, based on your other argument that the constitution changes easily, I am very much sorry to say again that this is where people are being ignorant. This is not a policy from the executive department where the can change it by issuing another executive order. These rules are part of the constitution of a country that can only be changed in a bicameral congress with 2 chambers. It will certainly not be easy to change. They will not try to propose a change because they know it will not pass the first reading.

I did some research and I agree with you, it's not as easy as I was saying, I might be wrong and sorry for that but I'd really love to discuss it. On paper, Russia’s requirements for major constitutional changes are strict, two-thirds of the Duma and three-fourths of regional parliaments are necessary to change the constitution, which is similar to the USA's two-thirds of each chamber and three-quarters of the 50 states, isn't it? Correct me if I'm wrong. I assume that I'm correct in this case and from Russia's example, it looked easy, not very easy but definitely possible and if there is a will and money, too many things are possible, including this one.

I don't think that Trump will live till 2028 but I'm afraid if he lives and is healthy, he will not stop, He has support of very rich people too.

[bbc.reporter]

@Synchronice. We cannot compare Russia and a country like China with a much more democratic country similar to the US and A. We can argue that America might be only a democracy on paper, however, Russia and China have their system of government that is much more easily to be controlled by their dictating leaders Putin and the Xi of the Jin and the Ping.

In any case, I very much wish the Donald will attempt to change the constitution of the US and A so we can certainly witness how this attempt will be headshaking and useless.

[bbc.reporter]

This is very good news. The Ethereum Foundation has donated $500k to Roman Storm's legal team! However, there is also not very good news. It appears that this will not be enough to pay the lawyers in full.

I am not quite certain why the Donald is not commanding the department of justice to stop this case. Writing code is not a crime.



Now, the Ethereum Foundation is stepping in. On Friday, it announced a $500,000 donation to Storm’s legal defence and pledged to match up to $750,000 in additional community contributions.

That’s enough, Storm’s team says, to fully fund the remainder of his legal costs.

The Foundation signed off its tweet stating: “Privacy is normal, and writing code is not a crime.”

Read in full https://www.dlnews.com/articles/people-culture/ethereum-foundation-donate-500k-tornado-cash-code-not-crime/

[OmegaStarScream]

More news regarding the matter:

https://x.com/WatcherGuru/status/1942256634136232100

The US Treasury Department has ended its legal appeal regarding Tornado Cash sanctions enforcement following a district court ruling that deemed the original mandate unenforceable, according to a new report from Bloomberg Laws.

[arabspaceship123]

The tweet's saying the govt isn't going after Tornado Cash. They've said they won't appeal the court decision. Roman Storm isn't free he's going to court because they're saying he knew his mixer laundered money so his case's continuing.

He didn't say Tornado Cash devs should be convicted for money laundering. When Biden was president American laws didn't show they were friendly to crypto. Trump's showing he wants to help crypto. We'll know if Roman Storm's free or guilty after the court judgment.

More news regarding the matter:

https://x.com/WatcherGuru/status/1942256634136232100

[Bitcoin_Arena]

The tweet's saying the govt isn't going after Tornado Cash. They've said they won't appeal the court decision. Roman Storm isn't free he's going to court because they're saying he knew his mixer laundered money so his case's continuing.

He didn't say Tornado Cash devs should be convicted for money laundering. When Biden was president American laws didn't show they were friendly to crypto. Trump's showing he wants to help crypto. We'll know if Roman Storm's free or guilty after the court judgment.

I am no proper follower of laws regarding money laundering, but if they won't go after the Tornado Cash (meaning the sanctions were dropped) then the devs might as well at some point see freedom. Arresting developers for just developing a software was already looking bad because it's not them that laundered the money or asked the Lazarus Group to use the platform.

[BenCodie]

The tweet's saying the govt isn't going after Tornado Cash. They've said they won't appeal the court decision. Roman Storm isn't free he's going to court because they're saying he knew his mixer laundered money so his case's continuing.

Unless there is proof from evidence like Roman's communications, I don't see how can they prove that he knew in advance that people were going to use Tornado Cash to launder money. While laundering is obviously a risk with any privacy protocol, that doesn't mean that its creation was intended for that.

I (sarcastically) wonder if any bank executives have been under this much scrutiny for laundering, since banks (arguably) have much worse laundering statistics/affiliation with criminal activity are much higher than that of what all of the crypto ecosystem have involvement with.

[arabspaceship123]

I am no proper follower of laws regarding money laundering, but if they won't go after the Tornado Cash (meaning the sanctions were dropped) then the devs might as well at some point see freedom. Arresting developers for just developing a software was already looking bad because it's not them that laundered the money or asked the Lazarus Group to use the platform.

They've made a case against Roman Storm saying he didn't stop money laundering after he knew. There's many ppl & companies who've donated to pay his legal bill because they believe he shouldn't have been arrested so until a judge says he's free he'll fight in court.

Unless there is proof from evidence like Roman's communications, I don't see how can they prove that he knew in advance that people were going to use Tornado Cash to launder money. While laundering is obviously a risk with any privacy protocol, that doesn't mean that its creation was intended for that.

I (sarcastically) wonder if any bank executives have been under this much scrutiny for laundering, since banks (arguably) have much worse laundering statistics/affiliation with criminal activity are much higher than that of what all of the crypto ecosystem have involvement with.

It wasn't intended for money launder but they've got email evidences saying he's guilty because he didn't stop money laundering after he knew it was happening. He's got to clear his name in court or he'll get years in prison.

[BenCodie]

Unless there is proof from evidence like Roman's communications, I don't see how can they prove that he knew in advance that people were going to use Tornado Cash to launder money. While laundering is obviously a risk with any privacy protocol, that doesn't mean that its creation was intended for that.

I (sarcastically) wonder if any bank executives have been under this much scrutiny for laundering, since banks (arguably) have much worse laundering statistics/affiliation with criminal activity are much higher than that of what all of the crypto ecosystem have involvement with.

It wasn't intended for money launder but they've got email evidences saying he's guilty because he didn't stop money laundering after he knew it was happening. He's got to clear his name in court or he'll get years in prison.

In that case, I'm interested to see what will be ruled. If the basis is that he knew ML was happening though didn't stop it, I think it will be argued that it is impossible to pick and choose certain transactions from interacting with a smart contract/decentralized and non-custodial protocol, and a complex job (technically) to identify or add any kind of measure to prevent it (any faster than how fast they sanctioned Tornado Cash to begin with).

[arabspaceship123]

They've got his emails saying he knew money launder happened & he let it happen. If Roman Storm took decisions which showed he's tried to stop it he could've said it in court in defence. He's going to have a difficult time in court.

In that case, I'm interested to see what will be ruled. If the basis is that he knew ML was happening though didn't stop it, I think it will be argued that it is impossible to pick and choose certain transactions from interacting with a smart contract/decentralized and non-custodial protocol, and a complex job (technically) to identify or add any kind of measure to prevent it (any faster than how fast they sanctioned Tornado Cash to begin with).

[BenCodie]

They've got his emails saying he knew money launder happened & he let it happen. If Roman Storm took decisions which showed he's tried to stop it he could've said it in court in defence. He's going to have a difficult time in court.

In that case, I'm interested to see what will be ruled. If the basis is that he knew ML was happening though didn't stop it, I think it will be argued that it is impossible to pick and choose certain transactions from interacting with a smart contract/decentralized and non-custodial protocol, and a complex job (technically) to identify or add any kind of measure to prevent it (any faster than how fast they sanctioned Tornado Cash to begin with).

"Letting it happen" means that it's something that can be controlled. A decentralized protocol like TornadoCash is not administered even by Roman. Yes, he's a developer, and has the most know-how around the code, but it's still decentralized. He couldn't just turn it off, make appropriate changes and turn it back on. As well as that, developing functions that would filter or deter money laundering is not a simple thing to make on-the-fly (as even today, AML scores are subjective and not sure-fire ways to detect money laundering). With this in mind, it might not be as difficult as it seems to defend himself.

[arabspaceship123]

America's govt didn't change their mind they're taking him to court because they say he's guilty. If it's easy like you say he'll be freed but if the case's strong against him he's going to have difficult days with the judge & jury. The case against Tornado Cash's dropped so they should drop it against Roman Storm.

"Letting it happen" means that it's something that can be controlled. A decentralized protocol like TornadoCash is not administered even by Roman. Yes, he's a developer, and has the most know-how around the code, but it's still decentralized. He couldn't just turn it off, make appropriate changes and turn it back on. As well as that, developing functions that would filter or deter money laundering is not a simple thing to make on-the-fly (as even today, AML scores are subjective and not sure-fire ways to detect money laundering). With this in mind, it might not be as difficult as it seems to defend himself.

[NotATether]

America's govt didn't change their mind they're taking him to court because they say he's guilty. If it's easy like you say he'll be freed but if the case's strong against him he's going to have difficult days with the judge & jury. The case against Tornado Cash's dropped so they should drop it against Roman Storm.

The case against Tornado Cash means nothing because it's not a company, just a smart contract administered by the two people. So prosecuting Tornado Cash is still prosecuting Roman Storm.

Imagine if governments start this precedent of classifying smart contracts like businesses. This would be really bad for the crypto as a whole and especially the web3 system.

[BenCodie]

"Letting it happen" means that it's something that can be controlled. A decentralized protocol like TornadoCash is not administered even by Roman. Yes, he's a developer, and has the most know-how around the code, but it's still decentralized. He couldn't just turn it off, make appropriate changes and turn it back on. As well as that, developing functions that would filter or deter money laundering is not a simple thing to make on-the-fly (as even today, AML scores are subjective and not sure-fire ways to detect money laundering). With this in mind, it might not be as difficult as it seems to defend himself.

America's govt didn't change their mind they're taking him to court because they say he's guilty. If it's easy like you say he'll be freed but if the case's strong against him he's going to have difficult days with the judge & jury. The case against Tornado Cash's dropped so they should drop it against Roman Storm.

While the explanation sounds simple and straight forward, there is always going to be the intention to prosecute/vilify him combined with the added intricacies of the law, which always complicates things and creates challenges. Otherwise, I agree that it should be dropped too.

[arabspaceship123]

Ultimately, they will sentence him to pay a fine and pledge not to engage in similar practices. The service code is automated and cannot be stopped or modified, so any sentences against Roman are meaningless.

If that's the result they want they didn't have to take him to court. They're saying he didn't stop crime happening after he knew Tornado Cash was used for launder. They don't want to make a deal & fine him they want to go to jail.

The case against Tornado Cash means nothing because it's not a company, just a smart contract administered by the two people. So prosecuting Tornado Cash is still prosecuting Roman Storm.

Imagine if governments start this precedent of classifying smart contracts like businesses. This would be really bad for the crypto as a whole and especially the web3 system.

It did mean some thing because Tornado Cash was sanctioned but the website's working now so it's legal if ppl want to mix the govt doesn't have restrictions. If they're allowing the site to work they shouldn't go after Roman Storm unless there's a strong case against him.