Blockchain Analytics is More of an Art Than Science

[franky1]

Because I've committed no crimes. Which is all the more reason the state has no right to surveil every aspect of my life.

stop taking drugs, no one thinks your important enough to watch you 24/7

instead of letting your drug habit control your mind. let research control it. realise one important thing. there are not enough politicians with IT skills to watch everyone. your target and fear should be pointing towards private businesses that report suspect actions. and then look into what is considered a suspect action. and then look for ways to avoid the suspect actions list so that you are not highlighted as worthy of being watched 24/7

tip: mixers are on the suspect list.
tip: you idolising and using mixer will get you flagged
tip: there are other ways to obfuscate value transfer without the use of "mixers"/AEC(anonymity enhanced currency)

tip: finance has ALWAYS(even before you were born) had regulations that made currency non private data in regards to the financial industry. the downside of bitcoin being regarded as currency(2014+) instead of private property(2009-2013) has brought crypto into the remit of those same jurisdictions, so research those regulations and realise whats included and not included

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[Synchronice]

Then we fundamentally disagree. The state does not have the right to constantly monitor its entire population "just in case".

The state should be able to to monitor everything . These data should be encrypted and only be viewable in crime cases . Courts and no one else should provide the keys to be able to decrypt the data . These are things that we will see in the future if blockchains stop being used only as a economic instrument . Bitcoin is a timestamp machine and has many more uses than we have ever imagined .

Are you dead serious? You say that state should control everything it keys should be provided only to courts when it's necessary but what gives you a confidence that absolutely everyone will follow that orders? Why and how are you so sure? You only see one side of medal and completely ignore the existence of the second side, plus, you absolutely speak from the perspective of perfect world and perfect people and completely ignore the evil nature of humanity and cruelty of this world.

When state monitors everything, you know what happens? Have you heard about North Korea? That's what happens when state controls everything. When you control everything, you have the power to do things the way you want, to manage life of millions the way you want and believe me, this power changes absolutely everyone, the power brings the chemical reactions in your brain that you can't stop from happening. Absolutely everyone abuses power, if one person doesn't abuse power, there are hundreds who want to and will abuse the power and the situation then becomes like, if you want to stay in the government, you have to abuse power to benefit higher ups and yourself, otherwise you will be changed by the one who is willing to abuse the power. Just ask yourself, why doesn't anarchy work? Because humans are social, they always form groups and power changes everything. Power is like a cocaine and you can't bring me a single person who doesn't get high on that.

the thing they dont realise is that the "government" are not watching them as much as they think

How do you want to live, only work and get salary? To be always employeed? Or do you wish to do more? Create business, become successful? When you try to step up in your life, then every data about you gets checked and then governments try to blackmail you and prevent you from entering into higher league.

from what i can easily tell from blackhat and oeleo is that they dont actually care about privacy. instead they care about scamming people into using services they are affiliated with for their own profit/gain.

I completely agree with o_e_l_e_o, now what about me? Am I promoting mixer?
Why do you think that when governments control everything, they also abuse everything? Do you really think that these politicians are cutest and warmest creatures on earth? Do you really believe that these politicians live on paycheck and aren't behind big businesses and corporations? Do you really think that rich people only run businesses and have zero influence on the politics of countries? Do you really think people who have control and influence are such an innocent that they want to control everything just only to get rid of criminals?
You know, in order for police to exist, crime is necessary. They want crime, they love crime and they are behind the crime (not actually employed people, I mean big guys).

[franky1]

the thing they dont realise is that the "government" are not watching them as much as they think

How do you want to live, only work and get salary? To be always employeed? Or do you wish to do more? Create business, become successful? When you try to step up in your life, then every data about you gets checked and then governments try to blackmail you and prevent you from entering into higher league.

a. thanks to bitcoin i retired young
b. i have run businesses, been and am successful, live a luxury life without fear/worry
c. if you actually research things like regulations and laws and rules. you learn the loopholes and exceptions to evade their crap.. its how i dont need to worry. because i actually do research. i dont just fear the unknown

from what i can easily tell from blackhat and oeleo is that they dont actually care about privacy. instead they care about scamming people into using services they are affiliated with for their own profit/gain.

I completely agree with o_e_l_e_o, now what about me? Am I promoting mixer?
Why do you think that when governments control everything, they also abuse everything? Do you really think that these politicians are cutest and warmest creatures on earth? Do you really believe that these politicians live on paycheck and aren't behind big businesses and corporations? Do you really think that rich people only run businesses and have zero influence on the politics of countries? Do you really think people who have control and influence are such an innocent that they want to control everything just only to get rid of criminals?
You know, in order for police to exist, crime is necessary. They want crime, they love crime and they are behind the crime (not actually employed people, I mean big guys).

im against government. but i dont just make up stories in my head. i research and look at what they are capable of and what they do.. most politicians care more about playing golf than what some pseudonymous bitcoin user is upto

politicians do have their own business dealing, where it does sway their votes. but you have to look 5 steps deeper and do your research to see what affects them and what regulations they create then affect others

research is key, not fantasy fear stories of the unknown induced by drug paranoia

[ABCbits]

For Bitcoin as timestamp machine, it's already possible with OpenTimestamps[1]. Some news also report Italian bank already use it[2].

[1] https://opentimestamps.org/
[2] https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2017/04/11/intesa-sanpaolo-trials-data-recordkeeping-on-the-blockchain/

That's a first step , but with blocksize of 1MB and such fees not much can be created on BTC in massive scale .

But depending on your needs, you could avoid small block size problem by utilizing merkle tree and only store top/parent hash. Peter Todd did that on Internet Archive data[1]. Otherwise if you don't mind altcoin which have bigger block size and have sufficient skill/time, you could fork opentimestamps[2] to support certain altcoin.

[1] https://petertodd.org/2017/carbon-dating-the-internet-archive-with-opentimestamps
[2] https://github.com/opentimestamps/opentimestamps-client

[BlackHatCoiner]

In 1984 Orwell talks about the power of propaganda (something like what we see in bitcointalk that mixers are a tool to enhance privacy )

Mixers are propaganda. We've heard that; this board never stops entertaining me. I'm genuinely curious how you interpreted mixing coins as exploiting anything at all. Do you mind providing a little more context?

Why am i not in jail right now ? Why aren't you in too ? Haven't they got much of our data for some years/decades ?

Pardon, but what the actual fuck? What the hell is your point? Do you actually think they don't have much data to put people behind the bars? And are you using my absence from jail as a basis to argue their lack of concern for me? What kind of twisted reasoning is this...

[franky1]

if blackhat was really that concerned. he would have learned by now(after being told many times) that mixers are in regulators list of suspicious activity that does generate investigation reports. and so to avoid being investigated, he would try to move away from such things

but instead he advertises, promotes and admits to using them..(facepalm)

with so many other transfer obfuscation methods that are possible AND not listed in relations for further investigation. i do find it strange how he does not spend as much time looking at those, as he does promoting things that will get people investigated

oh wait, its not strange. he doesnt care about privacy, he cares about profiting from his promotions, and these regulations are harming his profits due to smarter people not using the things he promotes, thus he gets less income from those services.. now it all makes sense. he is crying that regulations are impacting his income. its never been about privacy. but profit

tip: (as uber done it to evade taxi cab regulations): offer the same service as whats regulated. just dont use the word listed in regulation.
pro-tip: look for other features, tools and utility that give the same end result without being the thing listed in regulation


when there is a rule that is publicly available that a police officer will stand at mainstreet NY between 8am-11am on a tuesday
and then there is a so called "privacy guy" crying that he does not want police to see him, but then states publicly that he intends to purposefully go to that same mainstreet specifically and only on a tuesday between 8am-11am... he only has himself to blame for being spotted

[Synchronice]

c. if you actually research things like regulations and laws and rules. you learn the loopholes and exceptions to evade their crap.. its how i dont need to worry. because i actually do research. i dont just fear the unknown

Why do these loopholes exist? They are for rich people to don't pay taxes and earn as much as possible while your average worker joe will get fucked if doesn't pay it. Offshores, loopholes and so on were created for elites and you tell me that it's better to give these elites even more control on us?

im against government. but i dont just make up stories in my head. i research and look at what they are capable of and what they do.. most politicians care more about playing golf than what some pseudonymous bitcoin user is upto

Don't pay taxes and you'll see how they'll knock on your door soon. Or probably lose your job and when you'll be left without income, you'll see that government isn't interested in you. It's like, if you have income, you should pay me but if you don't have income, you shouldn't beg me for money, just fuck off.
So, when there is this kind of relationship between government and people, I think it's a good reason to protect your privacy as much as you can. If it's none of their business how I survive when I'm left without a job, then it's none of their business how I spend my money. And the main reason why I don't want others to know how I spend my money is simple: I don't support big chain businesses and I don't want to improve and expand their business by making them calculate what I buy, when I buy and so on.

if blackhat was really that concerned. he would have learned by now(after being told many times) that mixers are in regulators list of suspicious activity that does generate investigation reports. and so to avoid being investigated, he would try to move away from such things

As far as I understand, you are saying that if you want to stay anonymous, you have to hide that you are trying to be anonymous, right? That's where I agree with you but do transactions received from mixer look unnatural? If mixer does its job really well, then I think it's not a problem but I would lean on the side of manual coinjoin.

[nutildah]

But either you accept that blockchain analysis is bullshit and therefore all their claims should be completely dismissed and ignored, or you believe they are completely accurate in which case you must also accept that the vast majority of mixer use is perfectly legitimate, as they themselves claim.

There isn't room for a middle ground? Seems like its pretty easy to prove that at least some of it is correct. People perform blockchain analysis on this forum all the time, mainly for the sake of connecting alt accounts or exposing cheaters/liars. And they aren't government-funded professionals... Just people capable of pointing out that Address A is linked to Address B through Transaction C.

Having said that, I don't think that analysis being used to condemn individuals and potentially take away their freedoms should be so complicated that they can't be independently replicated to produce the same conclusions.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Seems like its pretty easy to prove that at least some of it is correct.

We cannot prove nor verify any of Chainalysis's claims because their code and methods are complete black box.

Imagine the reputation Chainalysis would get if this went in their favor here. Let experts review their code, have their code independently validated, and then have their results form a central piece of evidence in such a high profile court case. They would be the only blockchain analysis company out there who could claim these accolades, and as a result would increase their customer base as well as being able to increase their prices. It's a perfect situation for them. All they have to do is let a few experts audit their code.

So why won't they let anyone look at their code? The potential upside for them is tremendous. It's almost like they know that this won't happen and instead their code will be torn to shreds and shown up for the absolute nonsense it is. What more can you expect from a company whose head of investigations doesn't know what a segwit address is or know the difference between bits and bytes.

[franky1]

c. if you actually research things like regulations and laws and rules. you learn the loopholes and exceptions to evade their crap.. its how i dont need to worry. because i actually do research. i dont just fear the unknown

Why do these loopholes exist? They are for rich people to don't pay taxes and earn as much as possible while your average worker joe will get fucked if doesn't pay it. Offshores, loopholes and so on were created for elites and you tell me that it's better to give these elites even more control on us?

rules are not made just for elites.. its just words on paper. words do not care what age or income someone has.. its just that elites bother to educate themselves to learn the rules to find the loopholes.. you can too just by doing the research
for instance many people should know that loans are a tax free receipt of funds. so make your pseudonymous self give your certified self a personal loan. thus the income your certified self gets is tax free(write yourself a contract as proof of loan). other things like create a trust/corporate entity.. do as the elites do. its not rocket science. it just takes learning how they do it

im against government. but i dont just make up stories in my head. i research and look at what they are capable of and what they do.. most politicians care more about playing golf than what some pseudonymous bitcoin user is upto

Don't pay taxes and you'll see how they'll knock on your door soon. Or probably lose your job and when you'll be left without income, you'll see that government isn't interested in you. It's like, if you have income, you should pay me but if you don't have income, you shouldn't beg me for money, just fuck off.

first of all learn the difference between tax avoidance vs tax evasion.. it will change the results of who does or does not knock at your door

So, when there is this kind of relationship between government and people, I think it's a good reason to protect your privacy as much as you can. If it's none of their business how I survive when I'm left without a job, then it's none of their business how I spend my money. And the main reason why I don't want others to know how I spend my money is simple: I don't support big chain businesses and I don't want to improve and expand their business by making them calculate what I buy, when I buy and so on.

there is no default ongoing relationship.. again you assume you are being watched all the time.. reality is your not. however if someone makes a report against you.. then the monitoring relationship begins..
its the same with child social services. government dont watch kids all day.. but as soon as a report is made. then hell starts

also when it comes to money. for centuries money has been the control of banks/governments so laws have always been about banks/governments able to view/report/audit money.. money for centuries has never been private. auditors, taxmen, kings and government have always had rules that govern its use and seizures and control of circulation..

bitcoin is a new paradigm.. which from 2009-2013 escaped the draconian model of money as it was deemed private property.. however in 2014 it was declared by law as currency so joined the same jurisdiction of money rules.. i personally would prefer bitcoin to be privately tradable property rather than currency.. but those "mainstreamers" want it to be currency. so now you need to know the currency rules that predate bitcoin

if blackhat was really that concerned. he would have learned by now(after being told many times) that mixers are in regulators list of suspicious activity that does generate investigation reports. and so to avoid being investigated, he would try to move away from such things

As far as I understand, you are saying that if you want to stay anonymous, you have to hide that you are trying to be anonymous, right? That's where I agree with you but do transactions received from mixer look unnatural? If mixer does its job really well, then I think it's not a problem but I would lean on the side of manual coinjoin.

silly thing is.. people like blackhat not only advertise using mixers but he also shows guides of how mixers work, where it reveals the amounts the coins are split into and gives examples.. thus making it very easy for any analyst to then use his guides to then see other examples of others using it to then find the pattern.

most mixers are too obvious. and thats what oeleo and blackhat cry about.. they dont like that mixers are not just obvious. but also suspicious behavior listed and that their lax attempts of mixing get spotted so obviously. they cry that the law should not forbid suspicious activity rather then realise they should not use something so obviously lame/lazy. if something is so easily spotted as suspicious.. then your not doing your job right of being private

its like walking down a street but not wanting to be seen. but doing so by obviously and acutely jumping behind bushes and cars.. which makes people notice you more as being weird, out of place.. you know.. stupid tactics.. there are other ways to not get noticed. especially not promote that you want to hide

[Synchronice]

rules are not made just for elites.. its just words on paper. words do not care what age or income someone has.. its just that elites bother to educate themselves to learn the rules to find the loopholes.. you can too just by doing the research
for instance many people should know that loans are a tax free receipt of funds. so make your pseudonymous self give your certified self a personal loan. thus the income your certified self gets is tax free(write yourself a contract as proof of loan). other things like create a trust/corporate entity.. do as the elites do. its not rocket science. it just takes learning how they do it

Debt is tax free, that's a good point. Overall, when I say rules are written for elites I mean, the fine is still $50 (for example) for poor guy and for a billionaire. When you are employed you can't avoid taxes while it's easier for your employee to avoid it by moving business in offshores or Ireland is a good example. Why do these offshores exist? For rich people to not pay high taxes. Definitely you can open your business in offshores but here we talk about average citizen who depends on paycheck.

first of all learn the difference between tax avoidance vs tax evasion.. it will change the results of who does or does not knock at your door

I know the difference but my point is, let's say Bitcoin is my only source of income, I have a bitcoin business. The government only cares when I receive money in my bank account and sends me a letter to pay taxes but when I am left without source of money, they don't knock on my door and ask: Hey Mister, you have no income, how do you manage to feed yourself and your family, how can we help you? So, if they don't care about me and my family, then I think it's none of their business how I earn money. It's also ridiculous when self-employeed person has to pay taxes.

there is no default ongoing relationship.. again you assume you are being watched all the time.. reality is your not. however if someone makes a report against you.. then the monitoring relationship begins..
its the same with child social services. government dont watch kids all day.. but as soon as a report is made. then hell starts

I get your point and I agree with you on that and from my previous post you would probably understand that if you intend to become more than average Joe, you have to worry about that. If you are an average Joe who lives on paycheck or simply, doesn't have big dreams, then definitely this Joe won't be watched but it's not like you are completely out of their radar, I am genuinely 100% sure that absolutely everyone is watched randomly. I genuinely believe that algorithms of Google, Facebook and popular platforms save your certain messages when you mention this or that word. The fact is, if you do nothing wrong, no one will catch you.
I get your point and not 100% but somewhere 80%, I agree with you. I hope you got my point too

if blackhat was really that concerned. he would have learned by now(after being told many times) that mixers are in regulators list of suspicious activity that does generate investigation reports. and so to avoid being investigated, he would try to move away from such things

As far as I understand, you are saying that if you want to stay anonymous, you have to hide that you are trying to be anonymous, right? That's where I agree with you but do transactions received from mixer look unnatural? If mixer does its job really well, then I think it's not a problem but I would lean on the side of manual coinjoin.

silly thing is.. people like blackhat not only advertise using mixers but he also shows guides of how mixers work, where it reveals the amounts the coins are split into and gives examples.. thus making it very easy for any analyst to then use his guides to then see other examples of others using it to then find the pattern.

most mixers are too obvious. and thats what oeleo and blackhat cry about.. they dont like that mixers are not just obvious. but also suspicious behavior listed and that their lax attempts of mixing get spotted so obviously. they cry that the law should not forbid suspicious activity rather then realise they should not use something so obviously lame/lazy. if something is so easily spotted as suspicious.. then your not doing your job right of being private

its like walking down a street but not wanting to be seen. but doing so by obviously and acutely jumping behind bushes and cars.. which makes people notice you more as being weird, out of place.. you know.. stupid tactics.. there are other ways to not get noticed. especially not promote that you want to hide

I can't talk about blackhat (I don't know him and I rarely notice his posts) and o_e_l_e_o but one thing that I can say for sure is that o_e_l_e_o is a treasure of this forum, this man is very educated, helpful and I believe his intend is to really increase the awareness of the importance of privacy. If you check his posts, you'll understand that he doesn't promote mixers but privacy overall.

its like walking down a street but not wanting to be seen. but doing so by obviously and acutely jumping behind bushes and cars.. which makes people notice you more as being weird, out of place.. you know.. stupid tactics.. there are other ways to not get noticed. especially not promote that you want to hide

That's right! I agree with you but virtual world gives you slightly different reality, sometimes you can hide without saying that you are going to hide.

Overall, I like your logic here and I appreciate your different opinion! Thanks!

[franky1]

I get your point and I agree with you on that and from my previous post you would probably understand that if you intend to become more than average Joe, you have to worry about that. If you are an average Joe who lives on paycheck or simply, doesn't have big dreams, then definitely this Joe won't be watched but it's not like you are completely out of their radar, I am genuinely 100% sure that absolutely everyone is watched randomly. I genuinely believe that algorithms of Google, Facebook and popular platforms save your certain messages when you mention this or that word. The fact is, if you do nothing wrong, no one will catch you.
I get your point and not 100% but somewhere 80%, I agree with you. I hope you got my point too

i do get your points. but using context of available rules, policy and just common sense.. GOVERNMENT are not pro-active in monitoring. politicians dont sit at computers watching their constituents/voters..
yes PRIVATE BUSINESSES monitor their customers and report on their customers when certain suspicions are raised. but its only then that you will get investigated by "government".. this is the governments 'if you got nothing to hide you got nothing to fear' because their policy is if your not doing anything suspicious you wont become a file that sits on their desk, and they only care abut the files that land on their desk that have met some standard of suspicion to even arrive on their desk

even in china the government is not watching everyone. they too set policy for private business to react to their customers and then if certain thresholds are met report that to the government. i laugh at people that scream that china is more of a surveillance state than say UK/US

heres a fun fact for you about your normal real life social privacy. if you are falsely claiming social security/disability/unemployment funds whilst able to work.. you are more likely to get spotted and reported by a disgruntled neighbour, than by government staking out your house randomly.
yep if you are driving a nice car and a large screen TV is seen through your window and you are walking around your front yard doing gardening, without signs of medical aids. but tell your neighbour you dont work because you claim disability. it would be your neighbour you should fear more than the government

privacy fear is not about the government.. but about people and businesses you interact with

if you look at how many employees the UK HMRC and US IRS employ you would learn quick, due to maths they do not have the time to live monitor everyone 24/7

the US IRS have under 100k employees meaning 1 employee per 2500 working age citizens. meaning (excluding weekends and vacation time) they are if every employee was doing the same job would be processing 10 citizens a day per employee or one citizen per year in 50 minutes per employee

yet these under 100k are not doing the same job. there is actually under 3k 'criminal investigators' meaning beyond the majority automatic rubber stamping claims. they are only looking in detail to well under 1% of citizens (the reported citizens)

a majority of the 100k staff are just call centre staff and admin/management. the amount of investigators and time to actually watch citizens is super small

so all im saying is if you do not want to become one of those special suspicious files that land on the desk of a government investigator. learn the policies they use to weed out certain people. such as the FACT that mixers and AEC WILL get you flagged by private businesses receiving such funds.
thus find a different tool utility not listed as 'mixer' 'aec' to avoid getting reported

[HmmMAA]

...yes? Did you miss the slogan "Big Brother is watching you"? Did you miss the Thought Police? How do you propose The Party manages to prohibit specific books, specific speech, and specific thought, if it isn't conducting mass surveillance? Your assertion that "the state should be able to monitor everything" is the first step on the road to 1984.

What you fail to understand is that big brother is loved by the masses . Did you wonder why ?
The biggest weapon is not that there are cameras everywhere but that each one betrays each other . Your narratives don't let you see the most important slogan of the book which is "who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past." ( have you thought that bitcoin as a timestamp machine solves this ? ) . What about "ignorance is strength" ? We see that today in the bitcoin community , which was one of the brightest communities years back but it has become a pack of laser eyed maxis with no understanding of the philosophy behind the technology that they only interested to pump their bags and buy lambos .
  

Because I've committed no crimes. Which is all the more reason the state has no right to surveil every aspect of my life.

But you said some posts above

The fact is if this data is gathered, it will be used against you, regardless of whether you have committed any crimes.

You contradict yourself , seems that you do not have a settled opinion .
So , with all the data they have so far about you and the assertion that the state is bad why are you not in jail ? Or me ? Is it because we have committed no crimes or they forgot us ?

People taking out their phones to film a specific event is completely different to blanket mass surveillance at all times. And no, as I've shared previously in this thread, there is zero evidence that mass surveillance prevents crimes, and even the NSA admit that.

For once more , crimes are not only terrorist attacks (you still didn't answer if you think that boston marathon bombers would continue if they weren't identified ) . Rapes , burglaries , killings , traffic accidents and much much more have been solved due to camera surveillance , private or not .
So i'll ask : Is camera surveillance ( without a label like private or state ) needed ?

We don't. But either you accept that blockchain analysis is bullshit and therefore all their claims should be completely dismissed and ignored, or you believe they are completely accurate in which case you must also accept that the vast majority of mixer use is perfectly legitimate, as they themselves claim.

You propose Black&White but i prefer Jack Daniels

Mixers are propaganda. We've heard that; this board never stops entertaining me. I'm genuinely curious how you interpreted mixing coins as exploiting anything at all. Do you mind providing a little more context?

Mixers are propaganda ? Huh ? Are you on drugs dude ? Do you want to read again what i wrote ?
Propaganda definition :  information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote a political cause or point of view .
You are promoting mixer services , which are not legal . If they were legal none of the mixers owners would be behind bars , right ? Do you explain somewhere that these services are based solely on trust and are targets of financial crime services and any use of those could potentially lead to loss of funds or even legal problems in the future ? I can't find any . So , you are using propaganda ( look at the definition again ) , as you are biased and have personal gain . Is it so hard to get it ?  

Pardon, but what the actual fuck? What the hell is your point? Do you actually think they don't have much data to put people behind the bars? And are you using my absence from jail as a basis to argue their lack of concern for me? What kind of twisted reasoning is this...

My reasoning is twisted , you are so funny . Didn't expect something different from you to be honest . Do you know what Occam's razor is ? Better start using it from time to time .

But depending on your needs, you could avoid small block size problem by utilizing merkle tree and only store top/parent hash. Peter Todd did that on Internet Archive data[1]. Otherwise if you don't mind altcoin which have bigger block size and have sufficient skill/time, you could fork opentimestamps[2] to support certain altcoin.

[1] https://petertodd.org/2017/carbon-dating-the-internet-archive-with-opentimestamps
[2] https://github.com/opentimestamps/opentimestamps-client

That still won't work in massive scale with blocks of max 12k transactions ( if all of them are segwit ) per 10 minutes . I agree that other chains can and will create such services in the future . But for sure btc won't/can't do it .


 

[BlackHatCoiner]

You are promoting mixer services , which are not legal

It varies based on the jurisdiction and the specific regulatory framework. They are not illegal everywhere.

Do you explain somewhere that these services are based solely on trust

I very much do. I'm right as well recommending coinjoins and XMR swaps if trusting some stranger is enough of a concern, both of which are not illegal and might provide even better levels of privacy and anonymity. I guess you have a problem with that either.

and any use of those could potentially lead to loss of funds or even legal problems in the future ?

As I said, I do point out that mixers require to forfeit custody, so loss of funds is a potential scenario. As for legal problems, using a mixer isn't illegal anywhere that Bitcoin is legal last time I checked, so no I don't believe there are legal problems with owning mixed coins.

So , you are using propaganda ( look at the definition again ) , as you are biased and have personal gain . Is it so hard to get it ? 

Isn't it much of a cheap excuse for all of you who aren't wearing a signature to blame the personal gain when arguing about mixers? We can eliminate mixers entirely and opt for XMR swaps (which, by the way, I'm not being paid to promote!), but you would still need to explain to me why desiring these levels of privacy is inherently wrong.

[o_e_l_e_o]

We see that today in the bitcoin community , which was one of the brightest communities years back but it has become a pack of laser eyed maxis with no understanding of the philosophy behind the technology that they only interested to pump their bags and buy lambos .

I fail to see the link between this and your assertion that the state should be allowed to monitor everything. Even if bitcoin didn't exist, my stance on privacy would be the same. Indeed, my stance on privacy was the same before bitcoin.

You contradict yourself , seems that you do not have a settled opinion .

My quote that you shared was referring specifically to this case, where potentially innocent people are being convicted of laundering money based on unreliable and probably downright false "evidence", which is being shielded from any independent verification. The government know this, but they don't care.

For once more , crimes are not only terrorist attacks (you still didn't answer if you think that boston marathon bombers would continue if they weren't identified ) . Rapes , burglaries , killings , traffic accidents and much much more have been solved due to camera surveillance , private or not .

And I'll point out again that the Boston marathon bombers were not identified due to mass surveillance, but due to private citizens. If individuals or businesses want to use cameras on their private property, that is their right. The government does not have the right to record all people in all public places. And as I linked to above, the evidence shows that mass surveillance does not prevent any crimes.

So i'll ask : Is camera surveillance ( without a label like private or state ) needed ?

No. They do not prevent crimes, and the downside far outweighs any theoretical security benefit.

[JayJuanGee]

For once more , crimes are not only terrorist attacks (you still didn't answer if you think that boston marathon bombers would continue if they weren't identified ) . Rapes , burglaries , killings , traffic accidents and much much more have been solved due to camera surveillance , private or not .

And I'll point out again that the Boston marathon bombers were not identified due to mass surveillance, but due to private citizens. If individuals or businesses want to use cameras on their private property, that is their right. The government does not have the right to record all people in all public places. And as I linked to above, the evidence shows that mass surveillance does not prevent any crimes.

For sure, these issues are getting worse and even more murky in regards to the government's cooptation of private systems and even people with private systems are getting the rug pulled from under them without even knowing that their data is getting used by governments without a warrant and it may well even be questionable if they have probable cause in some cases that they get access to private security cameras that are using third parties for their data storage.

It seems that in some cases, the courts (or maybe even the people need to rebel) need to rule that state action is involved when governments are purchasing and/or otherwise getting data from third parties without warrants or with shoddy procedures that allow them too much access to too much private information (cameras and other kinds of data being held by supposed third parties).

[cryptosize]

What you fail to understand is that big brother is loved by the masses . Did you wonder why ?
The biggest weapon is not that there are cameras everywhere but that each one betrays each other . Your narratives don't let you see the most important slogan of the book which is "who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past." ( have you thought that bitcoin as a timestamp machine solves this ? ) . What about "ignorance is strength" ? We see that today in the bitcoin community , which was one of the brightest communities years back but it has become a pack of laser eyed maxis with no understanding of the philosophy behind the technology that they only interested to pump their bags and buy lambos .

Who the fuck told you that Satoshi Nakomoto (Craig Wright according to you ) had a "big brother philosophy"? Do you have any source to back that claim up?

I still cannot fathom that people like you want to turn the BTC blockchain into a big brother tool! This explains your incessant love with jumbo size 4GB BSV blocks.

I guess it's a good thing BTC's block size won't be increased and the PoW consensus won't change to PoS either (according to ESG demands). Other chains will fill that despicable, totalitarian role that some people seem to be so fond of.

I mean, let's assume for a second that BTC became a big brother tool (with huge blocks and whatnot).

Don't you think that would vindicate conspiracy theorists who claim that Bitcoin is a covert NSA Psy-Op to enslave the masses (that apparently "love" Big Brother )? What would be the difference compared to CBDC (which is also blockchain-based)? Why the hell do we need Bitcoin then? Let's cut to the chase and adopt CBDC!

Get the fuck outta here with this NWO bullshit!

It's sad to realize that even this forum (which should be considered a bastion of freedom) is full of systemic/globalist trojan horses trying to hijack Bitcoin's blockchain for nefarious purposes.

Totally flabbergasted...

[HmmMAA]

It varies based on the jurisdiction and the specific regulatory framework. They are not illegal everywhere.

No need to be illegal everywhere . You might get extradited in a foreign country .
You don't understand that things are getting more rough , forget the far west mentality and prepare . You might don't get it but i say this for your own good .
https://github.com/orgs/community/discussions/66147

[o_e_l_e_o]

It's sad to realize that even this forum (which should be considered a bastion of freedom) is full of systemic/globalist trojan horses trying to hijack Bitcoin's blockchain for nefarious purposes.

This is unfortunately nothing new. Here's a post I made two years ago:

Even on here, a bitcoin forum which is supposed to be built on the principles of not trusting third parties, we frequently see people more than happy to send their private information to complete strangers to claim some scam airdrop, and we frequently see people (even some senior members) state something along the lines of anyone that is trying to mix or otherwise obfuscate their transaction history is obviously trying to hide something illegal and should instead just let the government stick their noses in and monitor their entire bitcoin history.

These kinds of opinions aren't just attacks on privacy, but they are attacks on bitcoin itself. Bitcoin was not designed to become another mass surveillance tool for the government to wield against us, and anyone proposing as much should be viewed as a malicious actor. It makes plenty of sense now that the same guy who thinks "the state should be able to monitor everything" is also a BSV shill and CSW cult member. BSV is already completely centralized and CSW and his buddies can seize any coins they want out of any wallet in existence.

[ABCbits]

But depending on your needs, you could avoid small block size problem by utilizing merkle tree and only store top/parent hash. Peter Todd did that on Internet Archive data[1]. Otherwise if you don't mind altcoin which have bigger block size and have sufficient skill/time, you could fork opentimestamps[2] to support certain altcoin.

[1] https://petertodd.org/2017/carbon-dating-the-internet-archive-with-opentimestamps
[2] https://github.com/opentimestamps/opentimestamps-client

That still won't work in massive scale with blocks of max 12k transactions ( if all of them are segwit ) per 10 minutes . I agree that other chains can and will create such services in the future . But for sure btc won't/can't do it .

FWIW, Bitcoin sidechain also exist where you can store such data. And by using SegWit/Taproot witness data (similar with what Ordinal does), you can store hash of multiple file into single transaction which have far higher efficiency.