The fate of the leftover fund

[RapTarX]

Recently, there has been discussion on what will happen to the leftover fund?

1. We all know whirlwind.money has left no path for a comeback. They aren't active for a long time now. But what they have left; $40k DAI in escrow with minerjones. MJ has already distributed more than half of the funds and is still holding ~$17k. What's going to happen to this? Who will be the owner of this fund if whirlwind never  comes back?

2. ChipMixer has been seized and DarkStar_ said all the outstanding payment will be sent. Has he sent the outstanding payment? I can't see any update on the thread. Nevertheless, there was ~1.30 Bitcoin on the ChipMixer signature campaign escrow address which has been later sent to another address. Who has received the fund?

What will happen to the leftover fund? Why do we really bother what will happen with the fund?

In case of whirlwind, imagine that whirlwind has come back and processed all the withdrawals & asked minerjones to send their fund from escrow back. What if some of the members don't send the fund back? Will some of you compensate minerjones? I guess no. Then why we really should think the fate of the leftover fund? Let escrow decide what will happen.

In case of ChipMixer, DarkStar_ announced of sending the outstanding & he should do that since he was in control of the fund in escrow. After that he has the right to do anything with the leftover fund. We don't have right to decide, do we?

The purpose of this thread isn't to put some sauce on the issue. The issue has been in discussion randomly in ChipMixer ANN thread, in a thread in Meta. That's why I thought of creating a new thread so that users can discuss here instead of being off topic in other discussion.

[Stalker22]

What will happen to the leftover fund? Why do we really bother what will happen with the fund?
~

In my view, as long as those escrow funds serve their primary purpose, which is settling the debt, I do not think we should sweat the details of what happens with the remainder. That is really in the hands of the escrow team to figure out. they probably have their own policies or guidelines to deal with these situations.

[yahoo62278]

I think escrows and managers should put up a disclaimer saying if money goes unclaimed for a certain period of time, then the companies forfeit the funds. As long as the person who has the funds did their job anyways. We cannot really expect them to just hold the funds for years and hope someone shows up. Just my opinion

[The Sceptical Chymist]

Nevertheless, there was ~1.30 Bitcoin on the ChipMixer signature campaign escrow address which has been later sent to another address. Who has received the fund?

Pfft.  I just remember "Chipmixer website seized"-->end of campaign-->I'm outta here.   I can't remember what was last paid as far as campaign weeks go, but personally I don't want any payout from DarkStar_ if it turns out I was owed one.  If other Chipmixer participants want the scraps, take 'em.

Somehow I never really expected there to be anything forthcoming as far as CM is concerned, and DarkStar_ must be in a tight spot.  He's holding onto money that might be watched by the FBI and who knows who else, and unless I'm wrong he's in a "damned if I do, damned if I don't" position.

Whirlwind I've got sweet fuck all to say about, as I never followed their doings.  Interesting thread, OP.

[arabspaceship123]

I don't know about how the escrow deal was arranged but if there's a forfeit involved it's better. There isn't a standard way to carry out escrow business so it's something ppl arrange when fixing terms. Do we know what terms they'd agreed to when the DAI was sent?

I think escrows and managers should put up a disclaimer saying if money goes unclaimed for a certain period of time, then the companies forfeit the funds. As long as the person who has the funds did their job anyways. We cannot really expect them to just hold the funds for years and hope someone shows up. Just my opinion

[1miau]

In case of whirlwind...


In case of ChipMixer...

Cases are very different, so it should be viewed separately.


In case of Whirlwind, funds were held in an Escrow by minerjones. Initially, funds were dedicated for Whirlwind's review campaign. Everything went as expected and funds were re-allocated by whirlwind to get an escrow fund to ensure trust as far as I know. There's been a statement from Whirlwind

The 40,000 DAI are still in escrow with minerjones and we are able to send much more than that if the risk of us stealing the funds proves to be the problem, but at a certain point our users would have to trust us regardless until we completely decentralize the service so we are not sure it makes much sense to do that.

So, in my opinion these funds are still valid for possible refunds of damaged customers but I would also say if a Bitcointalk community vote was held, funds could be spent otherwise.
It's mainly public funds now. But not exclusively.



In case of ChipMixer, funds were dedicated for weekly rewards of ChipMixer's Signature campaign. The funds served a defined purpose. In addition to that, last round of weekly rewards have been paid but interestingly, the transaction came from a different wallet than usually (usually it comes from 1Chip... wallet). Should be investigated where it came from, maybe there's more.
And as far as I know, only DarkStar_ had access to the wallet, while the wallet was topped up every 5 or 6 weeks by ChipMixer.
A reply from DarkStar_ to clarify where he / she sent the funds and why would be interesting.

After all it's also public funds and the purpose of these funds should happen by a democratic decision of Bitcointalk's community. It's what happens to public funds.
We would only need to decide who's eligible to vote in case of a decision: just campaign participants, in addition to campaign participants certain ranks (Hero / Legendary) or everyone above Member rank / xx Merit earned?  

After all, it's essential to make a fair decision here.
But I'm not the one to decide that, whole Bitcointalk community is.

The issue has been in discussion randomly in ChipMixer ANN thread, in a thread in Meta.

So far, not really much has been discussed about it, so it'll get interesting to investigate this.

[LoyceV]

MJ has already distributed more than half of the funds and is still holding ~$17k. What's going to happen to this? Who will be the owner of this fund if whirlwind never  comes back?

I don't think anyone here knows the answer. I'm just glad I'm not the one who has to make a decision on this: no matter what you do someone is going to be unhappy about it.

Has he sent the outstanding payment? I can't see any update on the thread.

The blockchain is public, it's easy to check.

After all it's also public funds and the purpose of these funds should happen by a democratic decision of Bitcointalk's community. It's what happens to public funds.

There are no "public funds", and there is no democracy involved.

We would only need to decide who's eligible to vote in case of a decision: just campaign participants, in addition to campaign participants certain ranks (Hero / Legendary) or everyone above Member rank / xx Merit earned?

Count me out, I don't want to vote on Other People's Money.

[Solosanz]

There are some possible ways:

1. Do nothing and high likely will lost.
2. It's become an extra bonus for the escrow.
3. Share it to every users who're involved.
4. Donation e.g. this forum, the one who needs etc.

I'm expecting the funds will end either number 1 or 4, number 2 looks to be fine as long as there's a contract or rule from the user who act as an escrow, and the number 3 looks quite unethical.

I'm just glad I'm not the one who has to make a decision on this: no matter what you do someone is going to be unhappy about it.

Do we need to make everyone happy? an user who was get red tagged by you is obviously not happy.

[jokers10]

So, in my opinion these funds are still valid for possible refunds of damaged customers but I would also say if a Bitcointalk community vote was held, funds could be spent otherwise.
It's mainly public funds now. But not exclusively.
...
After all it's also public funds and the purpose of these funds should happen by a democratic decision of Bitcointalk's community. It's what happens to public funds.
We would only need to decide who's eligible to vote in case of a decision: just campaign participants, in addition to campaign participants certain ranks (Hero / Legendary) or everyone above Member rank / xx Merit earned?  

I said that in another topic already: the fact that someone disappeared or scammed doesn't make his money our. This is not our money and we have no moral rights to make a decision of how to manage that money.

When we talked about the compensation for damage which was made by escrow guy, this is what this money was left for, so it's the main purpose for it. If there will be revealed that there are other victims, they can claim damages as well, if they will provide sufficient data to escrow guy. But that's all.

So I agree with LoyceV, I'm not going to take part in any voting on how to deal with other people's money. And please don't place me anyhow on a list of those who can anyhow get any penny benefit from this money.

[BlackBoss_]

2. ChipMixer has been seized and DarkStar_ said all the outstanding payment will be sent. Has he sent the outstanding payment? I can't see any update on the thread. Nevertheless, there was ~1.30 Bitcoin on the ChipMixer signature campaign escrow address which has been later sent to another address. Who has received the fund?

What will happen to the leftover fund? Why do we really bother what will happen with the fund?

The fund was moved around a last active day of DarkStar_ in Bitcointalk. If his account was not compromised, that wallet was not compromised, that device was not compromised, the sender is DarkStar_ but we can not know it.

If no victims left, the leftover fund can be return to an address used to send bitcoin to that escrow address. Then manager completes his job.

With Whirlwind campaign, it is different because that Escrow is for potential victim of their campaigns, advertisement in forum.

[1miau]

So, in my opinion these funds are still valid for possible refunds of damaged customers but I would also say if a Bitcointalk community vote was held, funds could be spent otherwise.
It's mainly public funds now. But not exclusively.
...
After all it's also public funds and the purpose of these funds should happen by a democratic decision of Bitcointalk's community. It's what happens to public funds.
We would only need to decide who's eligible to vote in case of a decision: just campaign participants, in addition to campaign participants certain ranks (Hero / Legendary) or everyone above Member rank / xx Merit earned?  

I said that in another topic already: the fact that someone disappeared or scammed doesn't make his money our.

Once again it's important to avoid mining up both cases.

While for Whirlwind, the incident happened a few weeks ago and there are likely more customers to be refunded. That's why I'm in favor to keep the escrow fund where it is currently. It's serving a purpose.

It's different for ChipMixer. ChipMixer isn't an escrow fund, it's for ChipMixer's Signature campaign. Considering these funds have been sent now, without any explanation and broader community consent is exactly what I believe is how these funds shouldn't be handled. We don't know why and where the 1.3 BTC were sent to.

The issue: there are not any rules yet how such funds should be treated for the ChipMixer case. The community needs to define these rules or we will have this coming up again. Maybe not every year but maybe every 2 years.
At least for the Whirlwind Escrow fund, the funds are serving a purpose currently.

[AB de Royse777]

It's different for ChipMixer. ChipMixer isn't an escrow fund, it's for ChipMixer's Signature campaign.

It still was escrow fund by definition.
The deal was between Campaign manager and the project owner, none of the campaigners get anything (or at least demand anything). Have you been paid for the week/weeks you wore the signature. The answer is yes. Case close for campaigners.

If managing a marketing business was so easy, not required risking loss, only profit then I would not have to pay many times several thousands if not five figures already out of my own pocket in several campaigns. I don't think that time many members were too keen to accept a no payment (sometimes a few but it's not even 1% of the total).

What I am saying is: loss, left, profit, whatever it is - it's the deal between two party.
One > The campaign manager
Two > The project owner.

You, me and rest of us should have no concern. We are third party.

Making a written contract like not claiming the money after x days/weeks/years will result xyz can be a good idea though. I have done it with few of my clients but it was more formal like -
If the project end up with bad reputation and communication disconnected for x months then you (project owner) do not owe anything from the escrow fund. It will be use to cover loss of the campaigners and management business.

The answer from them are always yes.

I think escrows and managers should put up a disclaimer saying if money goes unclaimed for a certain period of time, then the companies forfeit the funds. As long as the person who has the funds did their job anyways. We cannot really expect them to just hold the funds for years and hope someone shows up. Just my opinion

You nailed it.

[1miau]

It's different for ChipMixer. ChipMixer isn't an escrow fund, it's for ChipMixer's Signature campaign.

It still was escrow fund by definition.

From what was stated publicly, it wasn't escrow for any refund, just Signature campaign weekly rewards. Completely different from Whirlwind.
And when it's an escrow fund, it's even more controversial that the funds are getting sent now. Funds getting sent means ChipMixer came back? Address got hacked? Something else we dont know yet?
For an Escrow fund it is essential to be handled properly, especially after things are unclear.

A good example how an escrow fund can be managed professionally in a messy situation is whirlwind's Escrow fund managed by minerjones (and Hhampuz).

If we don't fix any uncertainties, much more controversies will happen again.
And I'm saying that as a supporter of escrow funds. Maybe every project doing a Signature campaign can provide an escrow fund and in case of an exit scam, losses could be covered. Most likely, such a procedure would reduce risks of exit scams, too.

Making a written contract like not claiming the money after x days/weeks/years will result xyz can be a good idea though. I have done it with few of my clients but it was more formal like -
If the project end up with bad reputation and communication disconnected for x months then you (project owner) do not owe anything from the escrow fund. It will be use to cover loss of the campaigners and management business.

+1
That's a good suggestion how such a deal could look like. Service and Escrow provider agree to a set of publicly available rules, where (best case) every possible scenario is covered.
It's a great idea to incentivize honest services.

[AB de Royse777]

+1
That's a good suggestion how such a deal could look like. Service and Escrow provider agree to a set of publicly available rules, where (best case) every possible scenario is covered.
It's a great idea to incentivize honest services.

As long as Service provider and escrow provider is okay with agreeing mutually in private or in any form - I think it's just fine. It does not need to be public at all.

From what was stated publicly, it wasn't escrow for any refund, just Signature campaign weekly rewards. Completely different from Whirlwind.

Difference was the manager Hhampuz was not trusted by $40k DAI so they went with an independent third party escrow which was minerjones in this case.

DS was holding his own campaign funds.
I hold my own campaign funds, when failed covered the loss from my own pocket.
Hhampuz holds his own campaign funds, when failed he also covered funds from his own pocket if I am not mistaken.

All are a form of escrow, you can define it by any other proper wording if you want but, all of it are escrow.

Again whatever deal was in between the escrow provider (third party or campaign manger himself) and the project management - no one supposed to have any concern as long as they got paid for participating in a campaign or the goal of the escrow was fulfilled.

[Obari]

I think escrows and managers should put up a disclaimer saying if money goes unclaimed for a certain period of time, then the companies forfeit the funds. As long as the person who has the funds did their job anyways. We cannot really expect them to just hold the funds for years and hope someone shows up. Just my opinion

Exactly because I'm sure if after holding for several years and someone suddenly shows up, then the holder is expected to make a refund and in cases where they can't,  they might be dragged out, hence I support the motion that a disclaimer be made that any unused funds over a period of time be forfeited as this keeps but the manager and it's escrow at a safer side.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

3. Share it to every users who're involved.
4. Donation e.g. this forum, the one who needs etc.

I'm reading the replies here and I get the feeling that I'm missing something fundamental--and it's really only Chipmixer that I'm referring to.

Those two ideas above: Wouldn't anything Chipmixer gave DarkStar_ that hasn't been paid out consider kind of tainted by any of those agencies I mentioned in my previous post?  In other words, if DarkStar_ donated leftover campaign funds (and that's what I think I'm confused about) to bitcointalk, would that not potentially pose a legal problem down the line?

[Rikafip]

In addition to that, last round of weekly rewards have been paid but interestingly, the transaction came from a different wallet than usually (usually it comes from 1Chip... wallet).

Ah, so we were paid in the end for those last few days of the campaign, good to know.

Up until now I assumed we weren't (and I even said that in another thread :p) because I don't really check my sig campaign wallet on the regular basis and few days ago when I checked the usual address from where sig campaign was paid, there were no transactions (except that latest one when funds were moved).

[LoyceV]

A good example how an escrow fund can be managed professionally in a messy situation is whirlwind's Escrow fund managed by minerjones

I'm not convinced that's skill, more a coincidence. I've also seen a bad example of how escrow funds can be managed.

I'm a sucker for strict rules, but it's difficult to take all possible scenarios into account before they happen. This is one of the reasons I don't actively offer escrow services (although I've done it a few times when asked). Yahoo62278's suggestion is a good disclaimer to add if it happens again.

Maybe every project doing a Signature campaign can provide an escrow fund and in case of an exit scam, losses could be covered.

Eddie's post comes to mind again:

Should never have put the temporary illusion of safety above personal liberty..
~
This forum started acting like protecting idiots is more important than letting users express their free wills..
~
A new startup can’t come here and start a signature campaign for example without completely being bullied into “trusting” some escrow they have probably never heard of, so heaven forbid they couldn’t possibly scam some users willing to take the risk..

Remember the forum's mission:

the forum's mission to be as free as possible.

If someone wants to risk not getting paid for having a certain signature for a week, who are we to stop them?

As long as Service provider and escrow provider is okay with agreeing mutually in private or in any form - I think it's just fine. It does not need to be public at all.

Agreed. But it will lead to topics like this one, where people question things they're not a part of. The next step would be handing out negative feedback demanding answers, and think that would have happened already if the 2 accounts involved would have had a lesser reputation.

Difference was the manager Hhampuz was not trusted by $40k DAI so they went with an independent third party escrow which was minerjones in this case.

I'm pretty sure it was Hhampuz' own call to ask another escrow. He ran the campaign and avoided a conflict of interest this way.

Ah, so we were paid in the end for those last few days of the campaign, good to know.

Up until now I assumed we weren't (and I even said that in another thread :p) because I don't really check my sig campaign wallet on the regular basis and few days ago when I checked the usual address from where sig campaign was paid, there were no transactions (except that latest one when funds were moved).

I can't believe I have to say this, but: You know the only way to see if you've been paid Bitcoin is by checking your own address, right? Not someone else's address?

[1miau]

In addition to that, last round of weekly rewards have been paid but interestingly, the transaction came from a different wallet than usually (usually it comes from 1Chip... wallet).

Ah, so we were paid in the end for those last few days of the campaign, good to know.

Up until now I assumed we weren't (and I even said that in another thread :p) because I don't really check my sig campaign wallet on the regular basis and few days ago when I checked the usual address from where sig campaign was paid, there were no transactions (except that latest one when funds were moved).

At least, from what I've noted in my document, yes.
Of course, maybe it's different for other participants? I've not checked everything back then.
Half a year has already passend and maybe I don't remember any additional circumstances.

And yes, from what I've noticed, last round of rewards came from a different wallet than usually (not 1Chip address). 

[Rikafip]

I can't believe I have to say this, but: You know the only way to see if you've been paid Bitcoin is by checking your own address, right? Not someone else's address?

Lol of course I know, but as I said I haven't checked my address for some time and never really bothered to check whether I got paid for those few days or not (tbh I totally forgot about it and I got bunch of other sig payments there). Only the other day when someone mentioned that leftover funds moved, I saw that there were no transactions after March 15th that looked like signature payments, therefore I assumed that we weren't paid in the end.