albert0bsd
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September 22, 2023, 10:41:01 PM |
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If we check products traded on the markets we will notice they have two uses. One is of course trading, the other is a specific Bitcoin and crypto, however, have only one use - trading.
That is Fucking lie, yesterday i buy some things with bitcoin. Maybe you are in somekind of bubble to see the real bitcoin potential, there is a lot of bussines that are starting to accept bitcoin payments
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serjent05
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September 22, 2023, 11:17:15 PM |
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It's funny how all responders here ignore the argument at hand and just write stuff completely unrelated to it. The argument talks about the difference between speculative and real demand. The usual crypto propaganda for attracting speculators cannot refute it. The difference between speculative and real demand is so simple to comprehend that there is no need to say anything more than what was said in the opening post. Let alone respond to all those ad hominem and non sequitur comments.
Even if you're right, there's far too many people that's sharing the illusion and it's too late to be saying that bitcoin's going downhill because there are big players in the market now and I don't think that they would want the price to go down so fast and them still hodling, they're going to want the ability to control that drop and then get out with a big profit. You could've made your post a bit more organized too, a wall of text isn't an attractive material to read for many. And again. Why do you think that your prediction about the growth of speculative demand is important? Literally all people that bought crypto coins assume that speculative demand will grow so they can dump those coins on someone else and get higher prices. Otherwise they would not buy the coins as there is no specific purpose for which they can use them. All holders must sell them by definition and they must believe the price will be higher. That's the essence of the greater fool theory. The topic at hand talks about why the assumptions of the buyers contradict reality. Don't stocks also work this way? Early buyer speculates that the price of stocks will increase so that they can dump their holdings to the new buyers. Isn't all the items in the marketplace do the things you stated? It is funny how you blindly state your reason thinking it is speculative and a bubble when all the things you stated are the norms in a market trades. Anyway, each people has their own understanding, you may understand too much @OP but you cannot force it on people. If we check products traded on the markets we will notice they have two uses. One is of course trading, the other is a specific Bitcoin and crypto, however, have only one use - trading.
I guess you need to do more research about Bitcoin and cryptocurrency. Do not stay on the knowledge you had wayback in years 2010. Things are rapidly developing.
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d5000
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September 22, 2023, 11:28:53 PM Last edit: September 23, 2023, 03:03:12 PM by d5000 |
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I'm having a deja vu: someone some months ago started a thread with very similar arguments, and he also shared a treat with JamesNZ: he got angry and was insulting people INSTANTLY. And of course, always talking about "reality" vs "crypto propaganda" etc. I've even discussed with that person, so Mr. "James" maybe you remind me ![Grin](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/grin.gif) No, I'll not waste time searching that thread. However, an answer to LoyceV: Here's a thought: you opened an account on Bitcointalk because you saw value in doing so.
Maybe he's shorting BTC and the price isn't moving into the direction he wanted? This may also explain his anger ![Grin](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/grin.gif) "James", so if you really are interested in a discussion about the topic of Bitcoin's value proposition and/or unique characteristics which give it value, (until now, it looks not, due to your aggressive behaviour) please use the forum's search function or Google about Bitcoin's "value proposition" or "USP". I'm ready to discuss that but will wait until you show some sign of goodwill. Other than that, I'll consider you a (possibly paid) troll. @Don Pedro Dinero: Haha, hilarious post you linked to! Made my day!
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wxa7115
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September 23, 2023, 03:07:53 AM |
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JamesNZ - who forced you to believe in crypto? You are never obligated to believe anything you don't believe in - including crypto. If all this explanation doesn't convince you about crypto - what's the point of everything you're saying?
I'm not going to argue with people with a completely centered mindset like you - it's like putting air into a flat tire or I'm just talking to a wall. Believe in something that you believe is useful for you - it's better than never having anything. All of these cryptos are speculative - but some of them have real use cases as a means of payment. Come to El Salvador, pay for something with bitcoin - you will be welcomed there.
It is pointless to talk to those that do not want to listen, without a doubt a great deal of the demand for bitcoin is generated by speculators, this is undeniable, but is this the only demand that exists for bitcoin? This could be true for meme coins but not for bitcoin. As a decentralized currency which offers worldwide transactions, for a reasonable fee, without a middleman and with a limited supply has value and it has an important demand as well, as many of us have bought several products and services using bitcoin as a payment option.
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Don Pedro Dinero
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September 23, 2023, 03:22:30 AM |
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This is the first time I've seen two trolls on bitcointalk in such a short space of time. If anyone wants to waste time arguing with the other troll, here's a thread: Using change addresses does not increase privacy, just feesAs for the OP, JamesNZ if you are so sure that bitcoin must go to 0 I hope you are getting short, no? While you're at it you could provide proof that you put your money where your mouth is and bet short against bitcoin. In the end it is one more troll of those that abound in other forums, but hardly seen in this one, the most famous being proudhon, who say things like this now and take advantage of price drops and bear markets to appear here but disappear in the bull markets. Maybe he's shorting BTC and the price isn't moving into the direction he wanted?
I don't think so. This profile of people tends to be people who bought high in a previous cycle and sold in the bear market thinking it was going to 0. Now all these walls of text are after-the-fact rationalisations to convince themselves that what they did was right, because if bitcoin goes to 0 they were right to sell at $500 when they had bought at $1,200.
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justdimin
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September 23, 2023, 08:32:10 AM |
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So basically, you trash talk about an item that people actually use for non-speculative purposes and sweet talk about an item that has only speculative purpose. How that makes me wrong?
So basically, I talk about that an item that has 93% speculative purposes have no advantage over an item with 100% speculative purposes. especially since this 7% appeared in the last 50-100 years, and without it (i.e. also 100% speculative purposes) it held value for 2,500 years. But how that changes the fact that gold has non-speculative use, while crypto coins don't? Literally everyone can create items that only have speculative use. Hence the inflation of cryptocurrencies - there are more than 20K of them. You just write a computer program, some protocols and voila ... you print crypto coins out of the blue . The catch is of course that no one can use those coins for anything except dumping them on the greater fool. How that has advantage over something that has actual, non-speculative use? It doesn't. You live in the fantasy word. You try to convince me that useful things don't have advantage over useless ones. Crazy. Gold is as speculative as crypto, there are few stuff that we can use gold for, but the price is not high as it is right now because of using it, that's not the main reason for gold to be purchased by people, they buy it as an asset and that's the main reason. I think it is quite important to make sure that we are dealing with something that would make sense and for that to happen we need to end up with something that would make sense on the long run. Hopefully we could see it change on the long run but I doubt that it would, it is going to be pretty similar. Bitcoin is here at the same exact reason as why we have gold so it is not really that much of a shocking result neither to have it this way and be similar to each other.
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DeathAngel
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September 23, 2023, 12:57:09 PM |
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Absolute nonsense spouted by the OP in all honesty. Bitcoin is going nowhere, governments are consistently showing how inadequate they are at managing nations funds. People are going to separate the money from state, bitcoin is the perfect tool for such a coup. I can’t speak for crypto but separate bitcoin from the nonsense & we will see the future of finance.
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Tytanowy Janusz
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September 23, 2023, 04:49:36 PM |
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But how that changes the fact that gold has non-speculative use, while crypto coins don't? Literally everyone can create items that only have speculative use. Hence the inflation of cryptocurrencies - there are more than 20K of them. You just write a computer program, some protocols and voila ... you print crypto coins out of the blue . The catch is of course that no one can use those coins for anything except dumping them on the greater fool. How that has advantage over something that has actual, non-speculative use? It doesn't. You live in the fantasy word. You try to convince me that useful things don't have advantage over useless ones. Crazy.
Go and create next bitcoin. A network that is secured by computing power, the maintenance of which consumes more electricity than many countries. And don't talk to me about crypto inflation by creation of many shitcoins. You might as well say that you won't invest in Apple because there is huge stock shares inflation, because anyone can start a company and enter the stock exchange and there is no difference between apple stock share and new small startup company shares. Bitcoin is bitcoin and shitcoins are shitcoins. They do... I agree, 99.9% of the time they have no justification for their high valuations and will probably go to zero sooner or later.
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OgNasty
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September 23, 2023, 05:26:01 PM |
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I can understand people saying that most cryptos will fall to zero. It’s probably true as most of them provide no value and solve no problems. However, it’s pretty ignorant to say that about Bitcoin. There are companies pouring billions of dollars into mining facilities and infrastructure. I don’t think it’s realistic to think they’d let their investments become worthless. I think we’re much closer to the bottom now than the top.
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philipma1957
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September 23, 2023, 05:47:13 PM |
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If we check products traded on the markets we will notice they have two uses. One is of course trading, the other is a specific purpose. The first use is what constitutes speculative demand. The second use is what constitutes real demand. For example. People can desire to purchase wheat or gold because they want to sell them later. That is speculative demand. But these products are also used for specific purposes. Wheat for nutrition, while gold for making jewelry, ornaments, electronic components, etc. Demanding wheat or gold for these purposes is a real demand.
A similar is true for financial products. They are used for both trading and specific purposes. The purpose of stocks is to represent shares of ownership in organizations that sell goods or services to make a profit. Demanding stocks to benefit from these profits or eventual liquidation of equity is a real demand. The purpose of bonds is to represent debt that companies and other entities must pay in the form of face value and coupons. Demanding bonds to receive these payments is a real demand. The purpose of fiat currencies is to represent debt that individuals, organizations, or governments owe to commercial and central banks. Demanding fiat currencies to pay a bank loan or repay a government bond is a real demand.
Bitcoin and crypto, however, have only one use - trading. Anyone who has ever bought or mined them must ultimately sell them to another speculator because there is no specific purpose for which they can use them. When you hear about the uses of crypto, such as 'transferring funds online', 'spending money privately', 'low-cost money transfers', 'day-to-day purchasing of normal goods', or 'buying drugs' this is saying the same thing with different words. All that just means exchanging products, services or fiat currencies for these virtual coins. Trading is the only use they have.
A situation where something is traded on the market but has no real demand has never been seen in human history. The only reason why products are created and come to the market is because they have real demand that uses them for specific purposes. Speculative demand is only a byproduct of real demand. Speculators on the market make predictions about how valuable a product is to those who use it for specific purposes and then pay prices according to those predictions. For example. By wheat having a nutritional purpose, speculators can tell how valuable it is to consumers and whether prices are cheap or expensive. Similarly, by fiat currencies having the purpose of paying debt to the banking system, and by debtors facing foreclosures in case of default, speculators can tell how valuable they are to debtors. No speculator would give a high-end vehicle for a specific number of currency units if they see that banks issue that number of units by taking low-end vehicles as collateral. On the other hand, debtors would be happy to accept such vehicles after getting loans, because in case of default, the banks would foreclose their low-end vehicles.
Given that crypto has no specific purpose there is nothing to predict. There's no way to tell whether prices are cheap or expensive. In crypto, speculators pay prices solely on the hope that other speculators will pay them higher prices. They essentially believe in the growth of speculative demand in the future. Crypto is therefore a perfect example of the greater fool theory.
Throughout history, there have been situations of big discrepancies between real and speculative demand. This caused market bubbles, the most famous of which is the tulip one. But never before has there been an infinite discrepancy, with real demand being zero while speculative demand above zero.
All bubbles eventually but inevitably pop. Then, massive sell-offs cause prices to decline, often quite dramatically. The real demand is what stops prices from further decline. With crypto lacking such demand, there is nothing to stop the decline, and prices inevitably must fall to zero.
The bolded paragraph is where you are wrong. BTC has value in the following manner. It is a flight to safety product. It never be traded. You can stack it to an address that no one know you have. You can flee your country in a disaster or a war. You have your flight to safety stashed safely on the block chain. At this point I have shown you to be wrong and please just archive the thread. As it is a trolling hit piece. You will be dead and buried long before BTC and crypto goes to zero in all, but one case that would be total destruction of earth by a cosmic event. BTW this is true for all of us.
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Wiwo
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September 23, 2023, 06:02:29 PM |
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If we check products traded on the markets we will notice they have two uses. One is of course trading, the other is a specific Bitcoin and crypto, however, have only one use - trading.
That is Fucking lie, yesterday i buy some things with bitcoin. Maybe you are in somekind of bubble to see the real bitcoin potential, there is a lot of bussines that are starting to accept bitcoin payments I think what os wrong with the ops is lack of information on the actual level of bitcoin penetration into payment systems lately and that os why head such a cheap statement as for how Bitcoin value is and what determines the through value of an asset, this is a big misunderstanding from the ops basic knowledge of Bitcoin. Well, I won't blame him so much as he is just a newbie who is just starting to experience Bitcoin by taking a step to be a member of this forum, so I advise ops to keep reading and stop writing nonsense about Bitcoin.
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imamusma
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September 23, 2023, 06:58:16 PM |
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Well, I won't blame him so much as he is just a newbie who is just starting to experience Bitcoin by taking a step to be a member of this forum, so I advise ops to keep reading and stop writing nonsense about Bitcoin. If you really understand what he said on the first page, then you might realize that his knowledge of bitcoin may already exceed some of the people here. But what happened was; OP went against the grain (denying many facts) which in effect has only made him a troll. The best thing to do is; don't feed the trolls, that's all.
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Wiwo
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September 23, 2023, 07:18:51 PM Merited by albert0bsd (1) |
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Well, I won't blame him so much as he is just a newbie who is just starting to experience Bitcoin by taking a step to be a member of this forum, so I advise ops to keep reading and stop writing nonsense about Bitcoin. If you really understand what he said on the first page, then you might realize that his knowledge of bitcoin may already exceed some of the people here. But what happened was; that OP went against the grain (denying many facts) which in effect has only made him a troll. The best thing to do is; don't feed the trolls, that's all. I agree with you on that, and from the look of things, he is not active on the thread to respond to comments that are being made on the thread, this also shows what level of troll the ops is, because one of the noticeable characters of a troll is that they never engage in constructive arguments that go against the own believe. More importantly so that the reason why we engage further in this discussion is for us to open up more facts and ideas on the topic since we are all here to learn by sharing knowledge.
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_BlackStar
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September 23, 2023, 07:50:39 PM |
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-snip-
More importantly so that the reason why we engage further in this discussion is for us to open up more facts and ideas on the topic since we are all here to learn by sharing knowledge. Of course you have good initiative - but are you sure OP really wants to admit that fact? Many posters before me have explained the facts about bitcoin to him - but he stuck to his guns and didn't change his point of view one bit. I just really want to stop posting here and reporting this thread as an attempt at trolling in the hopes one of mods will lock it - but let's see if they agree with me.
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rhomelmabini
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September 23, 2023, 07:58:56 PM |
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All bubbles eventually but inevitably pop. Then, massive sell-offs cause prices to decline, often quite dramatically. The real demand is what stops prices from further decline. With crypto lacking such demand, there is nothing to stop the decline, and prices inevitably must fall to zero.
Probably just a hater who wants to stir things with a story. You probably missed that its blockchain technology harness lot of real demands. I guess you're just being dazzled because it's clear you don't clearly haven't been fully comprehend it yet. Try to explore and don't have that confirmation bias wins over you, you should look the other sides of it.
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STT
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September 24, 2023, 09:27:00 PM |
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Its not nonsense argument its just not correct, I've heard a few of these points before and they are quite mainstream and believed by a few people as correct reasoning to be anti crypto. Hence the inflation of cryptocurrencies - there are more than 20K of them. This one I heard before, all crypto is equal and whatever value is in BTC can instantly be repeated elsewhere. Primarily because its open source, its kinda a fair point that we do not retain copyright and some people thought this to be a fatal mistake in a capitalistic world. However BTC is not easy to replicate definitely not out of nowhere, we already have this discussion in a massive way with the blockchain split. BTC defeated its former backers attempts to replicate and their divergence in the code protocol: ![](https://ip.bitcointalk.org/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.talkimg.com%2Fimages%2F2023%2F09%2F24%2FPwzzb.png&t=665&c=11vrYHnHj2qFdw) These arent new and are not especially threat because ironically BTC is unique. Despite no copyright and many other apparent negatives on retention of value BTC is not easily acquired or replaced by other means. BTC is unique and hence has a specific value, we can argue over price but its not zero. As soon as OP is true we'll see it more obviously, market tests pricing and demand for BTC everyday.
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philipma1957
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 4242
Merit: 8490
'The right to privacy matters'
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![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
September 24, 2023, 11:35:14 PM |
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Its not nonsense argument its just not correct, I've heard a few of these points before and they are quite mainstream and believed by a few people as correct reasoning to be anti crypto. Hence the inflation of cryptocurrencies - there are more than 20K of them. This one I heard before, all crypto is equal and whatever value is in BTC can instantly be repeated elsewhere. Primarily because its open source, its kinda a fair point that we do not retain copyright and some people thought this to be a fatal mistake in a capitalistic world. However BTC is not easy to replicate definitely not out of nowhere, we already have this discussion in a massive way with the blockchain split. BTC defeated its former backers attempts to replicate and their divergence in the code protocol: ![](https://ip.bitcointalk.org/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.talkimg.com%2Fimages%2F2023%2F09%2F24%2FPwzzb.png&t=665&c=11vrYHnHj2qFdw) These arent new and are not especially threat because ironically BTC is unique. Despite no copyright and many other apparent negatives on retention of value BTC is not easily acquired or replaced by other means. BTC is unique and hence has a specific value, we can argue over price but its not zero. As soon as OP is true we'll see it more obviously, market tests pricing and demand for BTC everyday. scrypt with LTC and Doge merged mining ⛏️ Is better than BTC in the long term. Satoshi wants power to make wealth. Sha-256 burns power making wealth but down the road rewards will zero out. Scrypt burns power making wealth but down the road rwards via doge don’t zero out. The op bailed as he was just a troll with pointless ideas. pow coins create wealth and will continue to do so for years to come.
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JamesNZ (OP)
Jr. Member
Offline
Activity: 183
Merit: 1
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October 12, 2023, 05:30:00 AM |
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It's funny how literally no one addresses the topic at hand and just talk about the usual crypto stuff or make ad hominem attacks.
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Pejoh Asu
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October 15, 2023, 04:00:21 AM |
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As we know that cryptocurrencies are digital assets which of course can be abandoned at any time, digital assets with algorithms which of course have weaknesses or keys to open them, currently we think it is impossible to know the private key, but developments will continue to occur and one day it will be easy to find out private key thus making cryptocurrencies abandoned.
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danadc
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October 16, 2023, 07:16:30 PM |
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I don't see any reason why the price of bitcoin has to be zero, the people who are enemies of bitcoin are not going to allow it either, because every enemy of bitcoin, since they have bitcoin, they are not so stupid, knowing that bitcoin is devastating 'co with such a low price and it has reached 70 thousand usd, that means that at any moment it can reach more than 100 thousand usd, and that makes anyone greedy, because quietly they buy bitcoin and continue buying, but no I know they earn by making life impossible, maybe they make life impossible for bitocin so that the price drops a lot and they take advantage of buying.
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