Trezor Safe 3 New Hardware Wallet

[JL0]

Someone asked whether the SE is open source or not. The answer was:

It is not, but the secure element we chose allows us to disclose any vulnerability, if we find any. So before our Tropic Square open-source chip is ready, the OPTIGA Trust M secure element was the best option.

https://twitter.com/Trezor/status/1712469783281848515

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[Rikafip]

But why a limited edition? I think a bitcoin-only wallet would grant them higher revenue.

Marketing stunt, nothing strange with making limited editions.

and it also seems like you still have to enter any passphrase on the computer and not on the device itself, which remains a large security risk.

So if you want to import seedphrase, you have do it on the computer and not directly on Trezor device itself? If that is true (can someone please confirm it?), why would anyone in their right mind use them as it looks incredibly risky and something I would never do and I thought that no HW do that anymore.

I was looking forward to new Trezor models as I've been on the lookout for a new HW but if what you are saying is true, then I have to look elsewhere.

[dkbit98]

Trezor 3 Safe is a boring name, I expected something more exotic but in reality it is just upgraded Trezor model One, and maybe that is not such a bad thing.

Trezor added usb-c connection, instead of old micro-usb used on model One, and they added EAL6+ Secure Element, but I can't find information what exact model they are using and it's OPTIGA Trust M.
I also don't know what main processor they are using for Trezor 3, but it should support Monero coin, unlike Trezor One, so it's probably similar like processor from Trezor model T.

Price for Trezor 3 is $79 and I think that is not bad, but don't expect to have bigger screen with Trezor 3, it's the same size as in Trezor One.
If you don't own hardware wallet this would be a solid entry point that will stay updated well after Trezor One gets retired.
Trezor 3 is in a sense just replacement for Model One.

Note that the secure element is not open source. It's just a regular secure element. Pretty funny coming from the company that spent the best part of the last 10 years saying how closed source secure elements are a security risk and secure elements are unnecessary, while sweeping under the rug their unfixable seed extraction vulnerability.

They literally had to make compromise, when they realized how hard is to make their own open source secure element, that is coming out in 2 years.
I won't critize Trezor for this new device, it's just refreshed model One, but we already spoke they need to do this long time ago.
Only thing they could add is bigger screen and small camera for airgapp support, but than price would be higher than $79.

Blockstream Jade has all that and costs less  

Jade doesn't have secure element, they have centralized server  

Someone asked whether the SE is open source or not. The answer was:

Thanks! This is interesting.
I was looking on their website and I couldn't find what SE model they are using.
It was OPTIGA Trust M secure element, and only hardware wallet that is using secure element from this manufacturer is Keevo, that is using Infineon Optiga Trust-P.

I was looking forward to new Trezor models as I've been on the lookout for a new HW but if what you are saying is true, then I have to look elsewhere.

Trezor 3 is much better than ledger and old Trezor One, and maybe you can even buy it locally.
You don't have much options elsewhere for this price  

[o_e_l_e_o]

and it also seems like you still have to enter any passphrase on the computer and not on the device itself, which remains a large security risk.

So if you want to import seedphrase, you have do it on the computer and not directly on Trezor device itself? If that is true (can someone please confirm it?), why would anyone in their right mind use them as it looks incredibly risky and something I would never do and I thought that no HW do that anymore.

Not seed phrase - passphrase.

The seed phrase will still be generated or imported on the device itself, but with Trezor One (unlike most other hardware wallets), any additional passphrase is entered on to the Trezor Suite software on the computer you are attached to, and not in to the hardware wallet itself. Obviously entering a passphrase in to a computer with an internet connection makes it very insecure, so potentially still having to do this on a brand new hardware wallet released in 2023 (when other hardware wallets haven't been doing this for years) would be very poor. There's no confirmation of this yet, though.

Edit: I've since noticed on this page (https://trezor.io/trezor-safe-3) that it says "device-entry passphrase", so at least that particular attack vector seems to have been removed.

There are multiple other reasons I wouldn't pick a Trezor though, even this new model or the other new model they are going to release.

They literally had to make compromise, when they realized how hard is to make their own open source secure element, that is coming out in 2 years.

Sure, but they have spent years telling everyone how not only do we not need secure elements, but that closed source secure elements can actually increase your risk. And now they implement it and call it ground breaking, as if everyone else hasn't been doing it for years already.

[dkbit98]

Sure, but they have spent years telling everyone how not only do we not need secure elements, but that closed source secure elements can actually increase your risk. And now they implement it and call it ground breaking, as if everyone else hasn't been doing it for years already.

I am following this subject for years and I know for a fact they researched and examined all available secure elements, so one they are offering now in Trezor 3 is probably best we have in the market now.
Many people including me wanted to see something like this so I don't see any problem with this, and 2 years will fly very fast, Trezor One will be retired and not available anymore.

There are multiple other reasons I wouldn't pick a Trezor though, even this new model or the other new model they are going to release.

Do you have any link with more information about this staying the same like in model One?
I know Trezor T uses entering on device, so it should not be such a hard thing to add this in Trezor 3.

[apogio]

and 2 years will fly very fast, Trezor One will be retired and not available anymore.

Is this announced anywhere? Sorry for jumping in, I just have a trezor wallet since 2019 and I don't use it anymore, but I am curious to know.

[Rikafip]

Trezor 3 is much better than ledger and old Trezor One, and maybe you can even buy it locally.
You don't have much options elsewhere for this price  

Since their previous models are available on Croatian market, I have no doubts that Trezor Model 3 will be available too. Regarding money, I have no problems giving few hundreds of dollars if that means I will sleep better (which I should with a more secure device).

Not seed phrase - passphrase.

Ah I see, I don't know why how I saw seed phrase instead passphrase. Anyway, its still unnecessary risk if its true.

[dkbit98]

Is this announced anywhere? Sorry for jumping in, I just have a trezor wallet since 2019 and I don't use it anymore, but I am curious to know.

Yeah, it's available in this BitcoinTakeover podcast, but you can also find short clips on bitcoin takeover website.
I heard them announcing this before, but they said they will continue posting firmware updates.
https://bitcoin-takeover.com/s14-e3-matej-zak-on-trezors-new-hardware/

Since their previous models are available on Croatian market, I have no doubts that Trezor Model 3 will be available too. Regarding money, I have no problems giving few hundreds of dollars if that means I will sleep better (which I should with a more secure device).

Than I would say Foundation Passport is probably better Bitcoin only option for hardware wallet, but you will have to wait for delivery from US, customs and you will have to give your personal information online.
I am more for something that can be purchased locally for cash without records of me doing it, especially if it's connected with bitcoin.
For people who want to have hardware wallet with Monero support, Trezor 3 is one of the better and cheaper options... I am sure not going to buy Trezor T for over $200.

[Eternad]

I just hope that they improve the screen durability. My last trezor suffer a small dot burnt on the screen until it got covered the whole screen to make it not visible already.

Is there any noticeable feature improvement on this version that is worthy to upgrade my Trezor Model T? This hardware industry is like gadgets now that keep releasing new version with just a little bit feature improvements. Next time we have pro max version for the screen. 

[dkbit98]

I just hope that they improve the screen durability. My last trezor suffer a small dot burnt on the screen until it got covered the whole screen to make it not visible already.

Screen is much more realiable than on ledger devices, but I think they changed the screen model in Trezor 3.
It would be much better if they added bigger screen, but I am waiting to see first tests and reviews to say more about this device and screen.

Is there any noticeable feature improvement on this version that is worthy to upgrade my Trezor Model T? This hardware industry is like gadgets now that keep releasing new version with just a little bit feature improvements. Next time we have pro max version for the screen.  

I wrote about it in my previous posts.
This is NOT upgrade if you already own Trezor T, unless if you want to pay $79 for secure element or for device collectibles item

[m2017]

This means that the day when Model One becomes a thing of the past has arrived today.

Now everything is clear with this Trezor Safe 3: this is a replacement for Model One, which, it seems, will be removed from sales (and production).

Since this will be something new from Trezor, the price will surely be higher than their previous flagship model (model T). $250-300?

Here, I was undoubtedly mistaken, because if Safe 3 had been produced as a replacement for Model T, then the price could have cost something like this, but as an alternative to Model One - $79 - a very reasonable price for a device, with an updated protective element (this is the most important thing) + updated design (admit it, a slightly larger display is great) + cosmetic little things in the form of color choice (it's nice to see the possibility of a little customization).

Trezor 3 Safe is a boring name, I expected something more exotic but in reality it is just upgraded Trezor model One, and maybe that is not such a bad thing.

Indeed, the name is a little boring, but you have to put up with it. I was hoping to see some letter in the name, like Model T style (Model S, Model S3?).

It seems that Trezor is just great and is doing everything right. It looks like a successful promotion and I’m sure their sales will be fine. But the time for New Year's shopping is approaching. At least they didn’t have serious f@ck up's like their closest, well-promoted competitor.

Who has already pre-ordered?

[SFR10]

more supported cryptocurrencies,

Even though it supports Monero and a few other cryptocurrencies that were missing on the Model One, for some reason it doesn't support some of them that were available on the older model ^{[a bit weird]}: Dropped list

And now they implement it and call it ground breaking, as if everyone else hasn't been doing it for years already.

I haven't looked at other manufacturers to see their setup ^{[e.g. NDAs etc...]} for this particular thing, but perhaps it's not as bad as it looks:

• We've also managed to source the OPTIGATM Trust M (V3) chips from a producer that does not restrict us from freely publishing potential vulnerabilities, so we can stay true to our open source philosophy.

I just hope that they improve the screen durability. My last trezor suffer a small dot burnt on the screen until it got covered the whole screen to make it not visible already.

Considering that they're still using an OLED display ^{["a new one"]} on the Safe 3, the LCD panel on your Model T is probably more durable than that ^{[unfortunately]}!
^{BTW, "this subreddit thread" might come in handy to those who are interested in reading more about their SE.}

[zherbert]

I just want to clarify the claims that future Trezor models will have "open source secure elements" made by TropicSquare:

To be very clear – it is impossible for @Trezor to release the "first open-source secure element on the market" if they are not using the OpenPDK at Skywater foundry (130nm process or maybe 90nm when available).

TropicSquare prototypes are made at UMC in Taiwan – their PDK (process design kit) is closed source, meaning that parts of the chip will be closed source.

I am growing tired of so many Bitcoin and crypto companies wielding the term "open source" for marketing purposes while slowly diluting the definition.

It is fair to say that TropicSquare will have an "open architecture" and that parts of the chip will be "open source" – but this will not be a panacea or the "first open-source secure element."

The best project building an open source Secure Enclave is https://betrusted.io which uses an FPGA to run a simulated RISC-V chip in which the entire simulated chip is open source.

Otherwise there are no good efforts.

If we @FOUNDATIONdvcs were to build an actual open source secure element chip, we would do something very simple at 130nm or 90nm at Skywater using their OpenPDK – and open source the entire chip.

https://twitter.com/zachherbert/status/1712503156721029490

Slush replied to my tweet confirming:

Fair, this is statement from soc media manager and it is missing nuances.
 
When you dig into Tropic Square docs, you'll see they are honest about not being *fully* opensource. But the digital design (and everything designed by Tropic Square inhouse) will be fully open source.

https://twitter.com/slush/status/1712552686342779354

Not to rain on everyone's open source parade, but all the TropicSquare chip will be is a partially open source secure element, with elements of the chip still black-box due to closed source foundry PDKs with foundry NDAs.

[dkbit98]

Even though it supports Monero and a few other cryptocurrencies that were missing on the Model One, for some reason it doesn't support some of them that were available on the older model ^{[a bit weird]}: Dropped list

Nice catch.
I think they are cleaning up code for all devices and they are removing some less popular shitcoins.
I really don't care about eos, bitcoingold, dash, decreed, etc. but for someone this may be more important.

Not to rain on everyone's open source parade, but all the TropicSquare chip will be is a partially open source secure element, with elements of the chip still black-box due to closed source foundry PDKs with foundry NDAs.

I am not sure about TropicSquare chip that should be released in 2025 or 2026, but they are using Infineon Optiga Trust M secure element in new Trezor 3 Safe, and that has MIT open source license.

[JL0]

Similar to the BitBox right?

We do not run code on the chip itself. The Secure Element simply stores a secret that can be used to decrypt the recovery seed, i.e., it never actually knows what your recovery seed is.
The Secure Element in the TS3 protects your PIN (without learning it), which releases a secret (stored on the Secure Element), which in turn protects your recovery seed (stored only on the Trezor Safe 3 general purpose chip, encrypted by both the device PIN and the secret stored on the Secure Element)

https://trezor.io/learn/a/secure-element-in-trezor-safe-3

[o_e_l_e_o]

Do you have any link with more information about this staying the same like in model One?

Already edited my post above - looks like it will support entry on the hardware wallet. But even Trezor T still allows users to enter the passphrase on the computer instead. They really need to remove this option altogether, but they can't while people still use the Trezor One I guess (which will be the case for many years yet).

Similar to the BitBox right?

And Passport and Coldcard. But completely different to Ledger, who run BOLOS and associated applications on the secure element itself.

[JL0]

Do you have any link with more information about this staying the same like in model One?

Already edited my post above - looks like it will support entry on the hardware wallet. But even Trezor T still allows users to enter the passphrase on the computer instead. They really need to remove this option altogether, but they can't while people still use the Trezor One I guess (which will be the case for many years yet).

Similar to the BitBox right?

And Passport and Coldcard. But completely different to Ledger, who to my understanding run BOLOS on the secure element itself.

Its different because BitBox02 and Trezor Safe 3 both storing the seed on the MCU and not on the SE. Passport and Coldcard store the seed on the SE. If I'm wrong please correct me.

[Rikafip]

Than I would say Foundation Passport is probably better Bitcoin only option for hardware wallet, but you will have to wait for delivery from US, customs and you will have to give your personal information online.
I am more for something that can be purchased locally for cash without records of me doing it, especially if it's connected with bitcoin.

Same here, no more fucking around with ordering hardware wallets online. When I bought my first wallet back in 2017, I thought its the safest to order it directly from manufacturer (Ledger), just to have my some of my info leaked and my email spammed with crap so next wallet will be strictly bought with cash in a physical store.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Its different because BitBox02 and Trezor Safe 3 both storing the seed on the MCU and not on the SE. Passport and Coldcard store the seed on the SE. If I'm wrong please correct me.

Ahh right, misunderstood you before - figured you were talking about the SE at a higher level, such as the difference between these devices and Ledger.

You are correct. BitBox02 and Trezor Safe 3 both say the encrypted seed is stored on the MCU, with part of the decryption key stored on the SE. Passport and Coldcard store the encrypted seed on the SE itself, on the other hand.

[apogio]

The bitcoin only version is sold out https://trezor.io/trezor-safe-3-bitcoin-only

As I said, I think if it wasn't a limited edition they would drastically increase their revenue.