Ledger's laying off employees. Thoughts?

[The Sceptical Chymist]

I've been checking the Ledger subreddit pretty often since their idiotic, trust-destroying Recover service was announced and looking at it today, I saw a thread that linked to a Twitter post that in turn linked to some other source saying that Ledger is laying off 12% of its employees.  Having read through the reddit post, I'm seeing opinions about the cause of this ranging from "this is expected during an economic downturn" to "Ledger fucked themselves because of Recover and/or the behavior of their CEO".  Those aren't direct quotes from the post, by the way.

Frankly I was expecting a thread about this on bitcointalk, but apparently there isn't.  What do you guys think about this development?  Was it mentioned on any crypto news sites?  The reddit thread also mentioned that Ledger has something like 500 employees, which seems like a hell of a lot for a company that basically makes 3-4 products (unless a lot of programming/coding is needed).

I also wasn't aware that there were very negative opinions about Ledger's CEO.  Very interesting.

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[Yamane_Keto]

It seems that this news is true. Here is the link to the article: https://www.ledger.com/blog/a-message-from-pascal-gauthier-chairman-ceo-at-ledger
When we talk about a company that manufactures hardware wallets, continuous development and customer safety must come first. It is not a company that sells TVs or sports shoes, so the marketing mentality must come first, the constant lying that appears in the company’s management will lead them to bankruptcy and may lead to the loss of some users.

The numbers he mentioned about the total number of wallets sold are frightening, and I do not know how he knows the percentage of securing 20% of global crypto assets.

Over the last decade Ledger has built a best-in-class hardware and software platform, selling more than 6.5 million Nanos and powering over 100 financial institutions, now securing more than 20% of global crypto assets. T

[Zaguru12]

Although this doesn’t comes as a surprise because of the conditions faced by microeconomics, many crypto exchanges and entities-like have been layoff their staffs with the likes of chainalysis in the last few days blaming it on bear market and also binance-US which theirs was as a result of regulatory issue. But this Ledger own definitely has to fall into the place of business not growing more due to the bad decisions they made.

Reading through this news outlets I don’t see a comeback for them even though they still want to go ahead with the recovery idea, and thinking it will come good. If you read through many insults are thrown to the CEO, someone even tweeted of trusting software wallets than them which is definitely too bad. I would say Ledger should just be considered there was a big hardware wallets firm.

Those aren't direct quotes from the post, by the way.

Here is direct link from there blog post affirming to this

[satscraper]

I've been checking the Ledger subreddit pretty often since their idiotic, trust-destroying Recover service was announced and looking at it today, I saw a thread that linked to a Twitter post that in turn linked to some other source saying that Ledger is laying off 12% of its employees.  Having read through the reddit post, I'm seeing opinions about the cause of this ranging from "this is expected during an economic downturn" to "Ledger fucked themselves because of Recover and/or the behavior of their CEO".  Those aren't direct quotes from the post, by the way.

Frankly I was expecting a thread about this on bitcointalk, but apparently there isn't.  What do you guys think about this development?  Was it mentioned on any crypto news sites?  The reddit thread also mentioned that Ledger has something like 500 employees, which seems like a hell of a lot for a company that basically makes 3-4 products (unless a lot of programming/coding is needed).

I also wasn't aware that there were very negative opinions about Ledger's CEO.  Very interesting.

Linkedin has 734 entries for Ledger employees (and I think not all company's staff n that list) which is more than a hell.  
Probably their profit was affected by the brain-bust-decision to share users' SEED with third parties and thus, the employees firing had to be  an inevitable fact.
Media is actively discussing the related development ^[1], ^[2], ^[3].  

[1]. More Crypto Job Cuts: Ledger Downsizes Workforce by 12%
[2]. Ledger Layoffs: Hardware Crypto Wallet Firm the Latest to Axe Staff
[3]. Ledger Faces Industry Downturn: Announces 12% Workforce Reduction

[SFR10]

What do you guys think about this development?

Considering that they're not the first cryptocurrency company to go down that path in 2023 and their downward trajectory, it was bound to happen at some point ^{[I'm not surprised]}.

I also wasn't aware that there were very negative opinions about Ledger's CEO.  Very interesting.

This is a direct result of being the face of a company, but he shouldn't be the only one ^{[the whole board, president, and other staff deserve to be blamed as well]}!

The numbers he mentioned about the total number of wallets sold are frightening,

They're great at manipulating newcomers ^{[unfortunately]}!
^{- Some of their users tend to purchase multiple hardware wallets of the same kind (refer to their subreddit).}

and I do not know how he knows the percentage of securing 20% of global crypto assets.

Perhaps they're spying in some way, but that number shouldn't matter when their main focus is on shitcoins.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

and I do not know how he knows the percentage of securing 20% of global crypto assets.

Perhaps they're spying in some way, but that number shouldn't matter when their main focus is on shitcoins.

OK, this is the first time I'm reading that quote and if he knows that information, then Ledger obviously knows which coins are being kept on Ledger wallets and how many.  Hmm.  D'ya think the disclosure that your private keys could be exfiltrated from the secure element that went along with the Recover announcement could have something to do with that?

In other words, do you think Ledger has already got something akin to a master list of every Ledger user's private keys?  Just thinking out loud here, you know?

I wonder how many of those 500 or so employees are various government spooks.  Christ I need a drink.  And I don't even drink.

[DireWolfM14]

In other words, do you think Ledger has already got something akin to a master list of every Ledger user's private keys?  Just thinking out loud here, you know?

Whether they do or don't doesn't matter.  The question that one should be asking themselves if they can or cannot.  Obviously the answer is they can.  Why would anyone sweat and fret about the other questions when the most damning answer is already known?

People should stop using Ledger, it's obvious that they think of their clients as nothing but a number and an income stream.

[Z-tight]

In other words, do you think Ledger has already got something akin to a master list of every Ledger user's private keys?  Just thinking out loud here, you know?

We wouldn't know for sure if such a list exists, but since they said that their users' keys cannot leave the secure element, but it turned out to be a lie, then anything is possible with ledger and it is surely not a recommended hardware wallet. They were also caught lying that they are on an open source roadmap^[1] which isn't true, too many lies coming from Ledger and it is enough not to trust them. A company can layoff staffs without any ominous meaning to it, but one that has recently come under fire and have probably lost all their customers that understands a thing or two about security, then it could mean something extra.

[1] https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5467841.msg62891890#msg62891890

[Lucius]

I've been checking the Ledger subreddit pretty often since their idiotic, trust-destroying Recover service was announced and looking at it today, I saw a thread that linked to a Twitter post that in turn linked to some other source saying that Ledger is laying off 12% of its employees.

When a company goes bad (for one reason or another), the first to pay the price are the employees. I do not think that these dismissals of employees are solely the result of their business decisions, but also due to the global economic situation, which definitely affects the EU as well.

OK, this is the first time I'm reading that quote and if he knows that information, then Ledger obviously knows which coins are being kept on Ledger wallets and how many.  Hmm.  D'ya think the disclosure that your private keys could be exfiltrated from the secure element that went along with the Recover announcement could have something to do with that?

In other words, do you think Ledger has already got something akin to a master list of every Ledger user's private keys?  Just thinking out loud here, you know?

I wonder how many of those 500 or so employees are various government spooks.  Christ I need a drink.  And I don't even drink.

My opinion is that they know exactly how many coins are on their devices, because their devices communicate with their servers and use the blockchain data located on those same servers. Considering this fact, it is easy to conclude that such data can be collected very easily and also connected to the IP addresses with which they are accessed.

If some big brother were to knock on their door (if he hasn't already) and ask for all this information on any basis (taxes, money laundering, terrorism...) I'm sure they would have to hand over this information. Considering everything that has been happening around that company for several years now, everyone should ask themselves if there is any logic in trusting them with something as sensitive as our private keys?

[The Sceptical Chymist]

People should stop using Ledger, it's obvious that they think of their clients as nothing but a number and an income stream.

I completely agree with the above, and even though I see your point about the biggest issue being their capability of extracting their users' private keys, it would be much more ominous/hideous/[add your own descriptor] if they had already done so and if in fact that's where they got that 20% statistic from.  That would just be straight-up evil.

Considering this fact, it is easy to conclude that such data can be collected very easily and also connected to the IP addresses with which they are accessed.

Does the use of the device transmit a user's IP address, or is it Ledger Live that does that?  Yeah I know I'm no noob, but I'm still an ignorant lunkhead when it comes to computer science. 

[Z-tight]

Does the use of the device transmit a user's IP address, or is it Ledger Live that does that?  Yeah I know I'm no noob, but I'm still an ignorant lunkhead when it comes to computer science. 

If you are using any wallet without connecting to your own node or server, the server you connect to knows your BTC addresses and IP addresses, so for privacy you have to connect Ledger live to your own node, or you just forget about Ledger live and use Electrum with your hardware wallet and connect to your own Electrum server, this is the only way you get privacy.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

If you are using any wallet without connecting to your own node or server, the server you connect to knows your BTC addresses and IP addresses, so for privacy you have to connect Ledger live to your own node, or you just forget about Ledger live and use Electrum with your hardware wallet and connect to your own Electrum server, this is the only way you get privacy.

OK, so it is true then that if you use Electrum (or Sparrow I heard?) and just stay away from any coin that doesn't have a 3rd party wallet that can interact with the Ledger in place of Ledger Live, Ledger can't see your IP address?  The first part of the above statement seems to say the opposite, whereas the second kind of says that explicitly.  From my scant knowledge of even the basics of how wallets and everything else interact with the internet (I know, I'm as good as fucked) it was always my understanding that avoiding LL was the solution to avoiding Ledger updates--especially the one introducing Recover--but when I fooled around with my Ledger I never really considered IP addresses.

Jesus.  By the way, I don't think I mentioned that I used to be a fan of Ledger despite the warnings by dkbit98 in particular but now have turned 180 degrees....so that makes me an anti-fan, I suppose.  Anyone buying used Ledgers?  Lol.

[alani123]

According to Techcrunch, Ledger has raised around 456 million EURO! That's a lot of money.
They have a lot of cash to burn and I assume that while the crypto market was on a bull run, their earnings must have been looking better than it does now.

But now without as much movement in crypto, we can safely assume that they aren't doing as well. I tried to look at their financial statements but it seems like they haven't published a new one since 2016!?

Well, we could draw conclusions from another metric though. Their series C funding round was $380 million in 2021. They called an "extension" to series C and got another 100 million EUR earlier this year. However, for a startup to actually get LESS money in a new funding round, it must mean that they aren't as hot. Their investors must be demanding answers. Probably their earnings were too low to justify as many employees.

TL;DR, in financial terms Ledger probably isn't earning a lot and has a dubious future as a company as is, so the layoffs were expected. Excessive growth goals tend to do that to startups.

Edit: Forgot to mention that my view is that the layoffs weren't caused by the whole PR fiasco Ledger faced. The bulk of their turnover probably comes from their enterprise services other than retail sales anyway, and corporations utilizing a company's services to secure other people's crypto sure wouldn't mind some trust into the equation of safekeeping crypto.

[Z-tight]

OK, so it is true then that if you use Electrum (or Sparrow I heard?) and just stay away from any coin that doesn't have a 3rd party wallet that can interact with the Ledger in place of Ledger Live, Ledger can't see your IP address?  The first part of the above statement seems to say the opposite, whereas the second kind of says that explicitly.  From my scant knowledge of even the basics of how wallets and everything else interact with the internet (I know, I'm as good as fucked) it was always my understanding that avoiding LL was the solution to avoiding Ledger updates--especially the one introducing Recover--but when I fooled around with my Ledger I never really considered IP addresses.

If you connect your hardware wallet directly to Electrum or Sparrow for example, Ledger can't see your ip addresses. But if you do so without running your own node and connecting Electrum to your own server or Sparrow to your own node, the public or random server you are connected to would know your ip addresses and BTC addresses, and not Ledger this time.

That is why i said that if you use any wallet at all, without running your own node and connecting to it, then you do not have complete privacy because the random server you connect to can spy on you.

[Meuserna]

TL;DR, in financial terms Ledger probably isn't earning a lot and has a dubious future as a company as is, so the layoffs were expected. Excessive growth goals tend to do that to startups.

Ledger is not a startup.  They're a few months away from their 10 year anniversary.

[alani123]

TL;DR, in financial terms Ledger probably isn't earning a lot and has a dubious future as a company as is, so the layoffs were expected. Excessive growth goals tend to do that to startups.

Ledger is not a startup.  They're a few months away from their 10 year anniversary.

10 years into it and this year they had to get funding once more, because they've yet to find a sustainable business model. This is very common in the tech world. Reddit came to be in 2005 and after hundreds of millions in funding has yet to turn in any profit. Many of these companies function in a perpetual state of being managed like a startup.

[Lucius]

Does the use of the device transmit a user's IP address, or is it Ledger Live that does that?  Yeah I know I'm no noob, but I'm still an ignorant lunkhead when it comes to computer science. 

I assume that the company (Ledger) sees your IP address only if you use Ledger Live, but I leave it possible that the hardware wallet itself has some hidden communication with the company even if we use another wallet like Electrum. However, we must not forget that when initializing the hardware wallet, we have to connect the device to Ledger Live, and we have to download coins apps or even upgrade the firmware, so I wonder how much sense it makes to hide later.

From everything that I have personally read on this topic, it seems to me that from the beginning the whole thing was actually in trust between the company and us (customers), and now it all came down to Ledger literally saying "yes, we can extract your seed from our devices, but trust us we won't share it around unless you pay us $9.99 every month".

The problem is, of course, that the company thinks that way at all, because most of these so-called "crypto messiahs" think that we are all just idiots who would lose everything we have if it weren't for their companies and their services/devices.

[LoyceV]

They deserve bankruptcy! You don't go from "the seed phrase never leaves the device" to "oh yeah it's fine we'll keep your seed for you" without consequences.

[m2017]

I've been checking the Ledger subreddit pretty often since their idiotic, trust-destroying Recover service was announced and looking at it today, I saw a thread that linked to a Twitter post that in turn linked to some other source saying that Ledger is laying off 12% of its employees.  Having read through the reddit post, I'm seeing opinions about the cause of this ranging from "this is expected during an economic downturn" to "Ledger fucked themselves because of Recover and/or the behavior of their CEO".  Those aren't direct quotes from the post, by the way.

In the winter of 2023, Amazon, Google, Microsoft fired their employees in the tens of thousands, and against their background, the dismissal of ledger 12% of employees (60 people) by the company should look like something terrifying? This is a common occurrence during economic downturns, which, if anyone hasn't noticed, are still ongoing. This would be considered a trifle during a “concrete” crisis.

Frankly I was expecting a thread about this on bitcointalk, but apparently there isn't.  What do you guys think about this development?  Was it mentioned on any crypto news sites?  The reddit thread also mentioned that Ledger has something like 500 employees, which seems like a hell of a lot for a company that basically makes 3-4 products (unless a lot of programming/coding is needed).

All discussions on the topic “what do 500 employees in ledger do during working hours while releasing only 3-4 products to the market” will be just speculation. We don't know the internal structure of this company, as well as the distribution of work responsibilities of employees and why there are 500 people on staff and not 50. If the ledger contained such a staff, then it is logical to assume that the company needed it. Why even raise these questions?

I also wasn't aware that there were very negative opinions about Ledger's CEO.  Very interesting.

And I still don’t know. Why is this gossip here if negative opinions about Ledger's CEO only if it doesn't concern their devices and the users of their products? I am ready to listen to information of this nature if it is related to ledger products (hardware wallets, apps and so on) and related topics.

[DaveF]

The other side is, was this always part of the plan. A lot of places will hire more people then they need on a regular basis to get things done, work through a surge, whatever. Then get rid of a lot of them. No different then retail stores hiring extra help around the Christmas holidays, or amusement parks having more help though the vacation season. Tie that in with a general slowdown in crypto and they were going to lay off X number of people anyway. But now it's X+Y people. Which is worse, yes. But how much worse?

Either way, their attitude and business practices are terrible anyway. So it could be those issues coming back to haunt them too.
All we have are the press releases and other statements. Not what is 100% the truth.

-Dave